Religious Spirits

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I just love when these self proclaimed "prophets" like Wagner come along, and people fawn all over their every word.

I also love it when ministries like Dr Wagner come along and get thousands of souls saved, healed and delivered. I would understand those who fawn over his every word if they were seeing the signs and wonders that God chooses to work through his ministry.

Envy is a terrible thing. It causes us to criticise men of God by concentrating on insignificant issues, and to ignore the important components of their ministries.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul marvelled at how the miracle wielding false apostles invaded Corinth, and how the church just took them right in.


2 Corinthians 11:20For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

There is no evidence that the false apostles worked miracles in the Corinthian church. False apostles don't make true converts to Christ. They draw them away from Christ.

Dr Wagner is responsible for thousands of conversions to Christ. There is no evidence that false apostles did this at any time. Satan does not undermine his own purpose.

But Satan works to undermine those who are winning souls to Christ.

 

[Tenebrae]

C Peter Wagner is responsible for thousands of conversions to Christ and deliverances from demons. Is Satan divided against himself. If Dr Wagner is no false, it must mean that Satan has become converted to Christ, because he has inspired a man to teach and disciple many good believers who have gone out and had successful ministries for Christ.

He is also one of the key proponents of the new apostolic reformation movement... Just google it to see the fruits of that movement

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

what I am seeing, from this, is this is the "Christian" thing to do. Not what the Word of God says. I guess that doesn't make any difference.

The test is, does it agree with the principles in God's Word, or does it contradict those principles? Many good, God supported prophets in the Old Testament did things that were not written in the Scriptures as they had them, but they followed the commands of God and therefore did not violate the principles of the Scriptures.

Jesus did many things that were not written in the Scriptures, but was He false?

The Apostles did many things that were not written in the Scriptures, but they kept to the principles laid out in the Scriptures.

So the test is not that what they are doing is set out in so many words in the Scriptures, but whether they are following the principles underlying the Scriptures or not.

For example, Jesus healed and cast demons out of people in many ways not previously written in Scripture, but He followed the basic principle that God has compassion on people and is willing and able to heal them.

The false apostles came to the church and demanded that the new Christians be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. They were contradicting the principles of the New Covenant, thus proving them false.

So we cannot test people through their methods, or even their faults and shortcomings. Only if their ministries are in compliance with the principles of Scripture. If thousands of conversions are happening through their ministries, then they have to pass the test even if their methods are not what we think they should be.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,
With regard to Wagner, I would have to add my voice by saying that I tend to him as promoting many false doctrines and I would not be surprised to discover that he has been listening to a number of false religious spirits.

What false doctrines are those?

I have read quite a number of his most significant books on a range of topics and I have not seen any doctrines that would contradict the Scriptures.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He is also one of the key proponents of the new apostolic reformation movement... Just google it to see the fruits of that movement

As I keep repeating, thousands of souls are getting converted. Because God's main passion is the conversion of souls to Christ, then I would say that the movement has His approval, even though there may be faults with it.

With any movement that is converting souls to Christ in great numbers, there will be many critics of it. Let's look at the fruit of the lives of those critics as well to see how many converts to Christ they are achieving.

 

[Simon Peter]

I wonder what local church's authority you are working under?

And are they aware of your remarks about Dr Wagner. Would they approve of your criticism of one of the leading ministries in church growth, healing, and spiritual warfare...

Wow! You really bought into Wagner's top down, hierarchical, authoritarian CHURCH of CONTROL.

If you read the scriptures on the subject, you will find that Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, are gifts of the Holy Spirit, NOT offices.

Oscarr, I respect the fact you have the gift of prophecy. But that doesn't mean you are over other men. It means you should be a greater servant.

The church was intended to meet together as EQUALS (under God) each bringing their gift with them, to minister to one another in love.

But once man got hold of church, it was distorted into something else entirely. The Protestant church has still not thrown off the baggage of the Roman Catholic style of authority.

But what's relevant is this:
While Wagner was leading people astray by promoting and endorsing the false teacher Bentley, I was warning people.

Now who do you think has God’s approval, the one who leads people astray, or the one who correctly warns people that a teacher is false?

Furthermore, how many conversions to Christ have occurred under your ministry. Do you have a ministry?

Yes, I have a ministry.
Yes, I have conversions.

But is that how you think the church should function, the man with the most conversions is in authority over the man with less?

Now answer this question for me:
By what authority did Martin Luther criticize the Pope and the Catholic Church?

By the way, were you at the Lakeland Revival meeting where these things occurred? Or did you get your information second hand?

The information I got about Bentley was from his own words, his own written teachings on his own website, interviews and videos. When I, and others, started to use his words against him, Bentley actually doctored his teachings, going back and editing things he had taught in an effort to pretend he hadn’t taught them!

The Lakeland Revival was broadcast live 24/7. Wagner’s statements were public and well recorded, but he also released statements from his own desk.



peace,
Simon

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

The test is, does it agree with the principles in God's Word, or does it contradict those principles? Many good, God supported prophets in the Old Testament did things that were not written in the Scriptures as they had them, but they followed the commands of God and therefore did not violate the principles of the Scriptures.

Jesus did many things that were not written in the Scriptures, but was He false?

The Apostles did many things that were not written in the Scriptures, but they kept to the principles laid out in the Scriptures.

So the test is not that what they are doing is set out in so many words in the Scriptures, but whether they are following the principles underlying the Scriptures or not.

For example, Jesus healed and cast demons out of people in many ways not previously written in Scripture, but He followed the basic principle that God has compassion on people and is willing and able to heal them.

The false apostles came to the church and demanded that the new Christians be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. They were contradicting the principles of the New Covenant, thus proving them false.

So we cannot test people through their methods, or even their faults and shortcomings. Only if their ministries are in compliance with the principles of Scripture. If thousands of conversions are happening through their ministries, then they have to pass the test even if their methods are not what we think they should be.

I agree with you. I was saying the fruit of what I see in this thread is not Scriptural. I happen to like him and in fact, is coming to our local area this month, and I plan to go and see him.

As a side note, I really appreciate your posts in this thread. Very well said and thought out. Keep up the good work.

 

[gratefulgrace]

I do not know much about Wagner except that he is a celebrity Chrisitian and an easy target. I am more concerned about religious spirits that masquerade themselves as Christianity and are not. gg

 

[Ajax 777]

What you have to look at when you criticise Charismatics is their fruit in terms of conversions to Christ, true repentance, and development to being sound church members, working for the Lord.

But that is not to any church's or franchise's own vainglory, Oscarr.
The glory is God's alone. His is a church without walls.

If a Charismatic church, which you consider excessive is producing real converts and ministries that are effective for Christ, shouldn't you be look at those, instead of criticising manifestations, which may not be what you think should exist?

It takes more than mere hearsay to demonstrate whether a ministry is effective for Christ, Oscarr. That's not a call we get to make. He uses the weak things to shame the strong. The fruit of the spirit is much greater witness to the authorship of the Holy One than outward appearances.

Sorry, but it's not a numbers game. It's great when so many come to the Lord, but it's of the wrong spirit to discuss the Lord's works as though they were quotas and statistics at the stock market.

And who are you to dictate to God how He decides to move in a church?

Indeed, who is anybody to do such? But He Himself has given us clear warning against tolerating heresy, and that is what many Charismaniacal churches are teaching the people, and it is leading souls to Hell.

You can object if you want, but I will not let you play the "who are you to say this" card when it comes to His sheep being devoured because you want play "I'm okay, you're okay". It's not about who "I" am or am not. It's about Who He is and what His word truly and plainly says.

We will have no excuse for not acting on the words He has spoken to us through His Word.

If He decides to have people falling down, dancing, climbing the walls, shouting praises, speaking in tongues, etc., then who are we to criticise?

Strawman. I never spoke against any of that. I specifically addressed the teaching of heretical and damnable doctrines by what I call "Charismaniacal" teachers.

Some of these very churches that you are criticising are growing at phenominal rates with a steady stream of true conversions to Christ, resulting in more and more stable church members. I would say that puts them above criticism from people who may not be achieving the same results.

Oh, none of us are above criticism, sir. Anyone who says otherwise has something to hide.

Humility is one such fruit as that which the true Christlike nature exhibits, but if these same churches have even half the same dismissive attitude as that which you display by these words, then there is already ONE fruit which is utterly lacking....and that's just for starters.

I question a great many of the other things you say here, but I will leave it at that.

We have to be careful that we don't put down churches that God is supporting, because we might find that we are criticising God Himself.

If the churches in question say one thing and the Word of God clearly says another, then I'll soberly and mournfully take my chances.

It's a terrible state of affairs when the body of Christ is set to devour one another over each other's apostolic "greatness."
Satan must be laughing his backside off right now...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But that is not to any church's or franchise's own vainglory, Oscarr.
The glory is God's alone. His is a church without walls.



It takes more than mere hearsay to demonstrate whether a ministry is effective for Christ, Oscarr. That's not a call we get to make. He uses the weak things to shame the strong. The fruit of the spirit is much greater witness to the authorship of the Holy One than outward appearances.

The thousands of documented testimonies of conversions and healings would stand up in any court of law in the country. That is more than hearsay. I work for the Ministry of Justice and know what evidence decides a case, and if any case to prove that Charismatic churches are of God depended on the testimonies of conversions and healings produced there would be absolutely no contest from the other side.

Did you know that Jonathan Edwards was an avowed Calvinist, and Charles Finney was an avowed Arminian, and yet they were both used in very powerful revivals. Which one was true and which was false, or was God supporting both of them regardless of their doctrinal positions?

Whitefield was Calvinist and Wesley was Arminian, and yet they were both used to win thousands of souls to Christ. Are we going to call them false.

And yet, all of these men had the same criticisms levelled at them you are directing at Charismatics. Funny that...

In fact, Evan Roberts of the Welsh Revival and Duncan Campbell of the Hebrides Revival were criticised in the same way as well.

All these men were condemned by critics as being of the devil and promulgating false doctrine!

So, along comes the Charismatic renewal, and whoopsy do! Out come the critics who are saying the same things they leveled at Jesus, Paul, and anyone else throughout history who had revivals and won people to Christ.

Is there anything new under the sun?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I specifically addressed the teaching of heretical and damnable doctrines by what I call "Charismaniacal" teachers.

So, what are these "heretical and damnable doctrines?

That Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the Living God who has come in the flesh as part of God's plan to save mankind?

The need to see ourselves as sinners without hope?

Jesus died for us on the cross and took our sins and sicknesses upon Himself?

The need to come to Him with true repentance to receive forgiveness?

To show the fruits of repentance by living a holy life?

To worship God in Spirit and in truth?

To freely use the gifts of the Spirit to build up the Body of Christ?

To grow in grace and maturity, looking forward to the Second Coming of Christ?

What else is there that is that important?

If you are talking about falling down, speaking in tongues, shouting, laughing, weeping, rolling on the floor during worship as being heretical doctrines, then isn't that majoring in minors, because these things are way down on the list of important doctrines. Actually they aren't doctrines at all, they are worship practices and methods, which vary from church to church.

Did you know that the Methodists during Wesley and Whitfield's time, the Congregationalists during Jonahthan Edwards time, the Presbyterians during Finney's time, the participants in the Welsh Revival and the Hebrides Revivals experienced the same manifestations?

Did you know that the Quakers, Baptists, Plymouth Brethren all had the same manifestations when they first started up?

If you are saying that the manifestations are "heretical" you might have to condemn all these denominations. You might get to the point where you might believe that only you and those in your church have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures concerning these things, and everyone else is heretical!

 

[Tobias]

While Wagner was leading people astray by promoting and endorsing the false teacher Bentley, I was warning people.

By your own logic then, the fact that you could not recognize the Spirit of God on Bentley's ministry (before he fell into sin), means that I should never listen to a thing you have to say?

 

[Tobias]

I do wonder though what Wagner is all about. Why when he finally did show up in Lakeland he apologized for taking so to endorse Bentley, and promised not to abandon the guy (or something like that.) Part of the issue here may be the difference between the ability to see in the spirit and know the spiritual condition of a situation, as compared to looking in the physical and seeing evidence of corruption.

I know I didn't sense anything fishy about the guy until long after those who rely on their intellect found discrepancies between what he taught previously and what he modified the stories to sound like later. I do believe God does not hold things against a righteous man of God when he struggles in his marriage, even to the point of his wife walking away. But at that time, integrity demands that he would step down from ministry to deal with marital problems.

Why this was hidden from the people, and why these wonderful awesome infallible Apostles did not know about it or consider it before endorsing Bentley (whatever endorsing him was necessary for, I do not know!) is a big mystery.


But at any rate, I would rather make the mistake of standing with a brother in the Lord who was being used by Him but is in the process of falling into sin; than stand with the Accuser of the Brethren, and exchange high fives with him when the guy eventually falls thinking that somehow proves I was right!

Hundreds of thousands of people have had their faith shaken over this ordeal, which was made all the worse by all the "godly" people criticizing Bentley's integrity and teaching before the marital indiscretions took place. If anyone can prove that one leads to the other, then please do so. Wrong, mistaken, and false teaching accidentally mixed in with godly teaching that is endorsed by God (as witnessed and declared by thousands of veteran saints)... does not become evident when the person falls into a physical sin! But IMO, anyone who feels that they are "right" because they "knew it" ahead of time, is listening to false religious spirits who want nothing more than to be "right" in this same way about each and every person who tries to follow Christ. These religious spirits "know" we are all sinners dressed up in sheep's clothing, and we are all teetering on the edge of falling into sin.

But those of us who listen to the "report of the Lord", know that we are Blood bought and washed clean. We keep ourselves in right standing before God by staying in relationship with Him, not by being suspicious of everybody and everything! Any true Watchman of the Lord who did happen to learn about a popular minister before they fell, would be grieving over the havoc and destruction caused to the Body of Christ, not gloating over his superior "guessing ahead of time" skills!

 

[gratefulgrace]

I do wonder though what Wagner is all about. Why when he finally did show up in Lakeland he apologized for taking so to endorse Bentley, and promised not to abandon the guy (or something like that.) Part of the issue here may be the difference between the ability to see in the spirit and know the spiritual condition of a situation, as compared to looking in the physical and seeing evidence of corruption.

I know I didn't sense anything fishy about the guy until long after those who rely on their intellect found discrepancies between what he taught previously and what he modified the stories to sound like later. I do believe God does not hold things against a righteous man of God when he struggles in his marriage, even to the point of his wife walking away. But at that time, integrity demands that he would step down from ministry to deal with marital problems.

Why this was hidden from the people, and why these wonderful awesome infallible Apostles did not know about it or consider it before endorsing Bentley (whatever endorsing him was necessary for, I do not know!) is a big mystery.


But at any rate, I would rather make the mistake of standing with a brother in the Lord who was being used by Him but is in the process of falling into sin; than stand with the Accuser of the Brethren, and exchange high fives with him when the guy eventually falls thinking that somehow proves I was right!

Hundreds of thousands of people have had their faith shaken over this ordeal, which was made all the worse by all the "godly" people criticizing Bentley's integrity and teaching before the marital indiscretions took place. If anyone can prove that one leads to the other, then please do so. Wrong, mistaken, and false teaching accidentally mixed in with godly teaching that is endorsed by God (as witnessed and declared by thousands of veteran saints)... does not become evident when the person falls into a physical sin! But IMO, anyone who feels that they are "right" because they "knew it" ahead of time, is listening to false religious spirits who want nothing more than to be "right" in this same way about each and every person who tries to follow Christ. These religious spirits "know" we are all sinners dressed up in sheep's clothing, and we are all teetering on the edge of falling into sin.

But those of us who listen to the "report of the Lord", know that we are Blood bought and washed clean. We keep ourselves in right standing before God by staying in relationship with Him, not by being suspicious of everybody and everything! Any true Watchman of the Lord who did happen to learn about a popular minister before they fell, would be grieving over the havoc and destruction caused to the Body of Christ, not gloating over his superior "guessing ahead of time" skills!

I agree in the stepping down part but to get the tell the truth, Bentley's wife and kids did not walk away from him. The truth was withheld from the people because it was happening at the time that the revival was in full swing. Money was coming in and no one had the sense or compassion to suggest it for Todd until it was too late. I am not sure what you are trying to get at, but I do not think people gloat over a brothers falling into sin whether they were right or wrong about what they were discerning or figuring out by investigation or whatever. But warning of false prophets is Biblical.gg

 

[Ajax 777]

First off, let me just preface this post by saying I may sound harsh, but I mean everything I am about to say to be taken without venom. This is a discussion, and I am only presenting the side I know to be true as best I can without meaning to offend, belittle, or condescend. Where my remarks may sound vituperative, I only wish to provoke thought.

Moving right along:

The thousands of documented testimonies of conversions and healings would stand up in any court of law in the country. That is more than hearsay. I work for the Ministry of Justice and know what evidence decides a case, and if any case to prove that Charismatic churches are of God depended on the testimonies of conversions and healings produced there would be absolutely no contest from the other side.

Well, I can find several websites right offhand that document Todd Bentley's inability to provide any proof of his supposed "thousands" of healings...but rather than offer evidence where none was asked, let me ask you: can you provide a link to any reputable websites or name any other legitimate sources wherein this documentation you allude to is presented?

Did you know that Jonathan Edwards was an avowed Calvinist, and Charles Finney was an avowed Arminian, and yet they were both used in very powerful revivals. Which one was true and which was false, or was God supporting both of them regardless of their doctrinal positions? Whitefield was Calvinist and Wesley was Arminian, and yet they were both used to win thousands of souls to Christ. Are we going to call them false. And yet, all of these men had the same criticisms levelled at them you are directing at Charismatics. Funny that...

These same men also called many wolves and false teachers on their error and falsehoods...these men preached a standard of holiness and submission that is the very demonstration of the fruit of which I speak.

Besides, just for example, the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate doesn't ever really veer off into an extreme which openly contradicts Scripture at either end of the spectrum, despite what either side's proponents say. Believing you can lose your salvation won't cost you the same if it drives you to stricter obedience, and thinking that salvation cannot be lost if you are truly His will not damn your soul if you continue in holy fear of Him Whom we should alone fear. But being taught things like "God wants you rich, and if you're not it's because you lack faith" directly contradicts what Jesus said about serving two masters, for example, or comparing the chances of a rich man entering the Kingdom of Heaven to a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

The elastically spoken justifications are endless.

I think if any of them were alive today, you'd be dismayed at the stand they would take. But, like your side of it, this is another "woulda-shoulda-coulda" sort of argument, and I'd rather deal with the verifiable facts, not exalted opinions.

I'm not sure in what way you think you can liken the speaking out against false teachings that has occurred in this thread to anything ever spoken against Finney, Edwards, Whitfield, Wesley, or any of the other men God has used, but I can assure you that I am all ears. Please, if you feel so inclined, I would be delighted if you could clarify how you arrive at this idea.

All these men were condemned by critics as being of the devil and promulgating false doctrine!

And I'd bet that none of them ever taught the heretical blasphemies I have heard the Laodicean megachurches of this day cling so thunderously to.

So, along comes the Charismatic renewal, and whoopsy do! Out come the critics who are saying the same things they leveled at Jesus, Paul, and anyone else throughout history who had revivals and won people to Christ.

Hah! How many times did Jesus accost the teachers of man-made doctrines? How many times did Paul confront teachers of error and perversion with blistering words? Simon Magus, anyone? Or Bar-Jesus? Diotrephes? Ananias and Sapphira? The list goes on!

I guess you think the words about the people who will say "Lord, Lord, in Your name we did all these mighty deeds and miracles" and are told "Away from Me, I never knew you" really means something other than the plain words of the text? No, I know...He really meant the people who hated their own lives unto the death in their hungering for His, but just wants to trip us up to see if we'll "step out in faith" and "claim His promises" rather than purify our hearts and cleanse our hands. You know, like the great men Wesley and Edwards did.

Edwards did nail it with "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" though. Not quite the "your best life now" experience the Charismaniacal travel brochures all make merchandise of people with nowadays, is it?

Is there anything new under the sun?

I don't know. Don't many of these so-called teachers all say "God is doing a new thing?"

"Not putting God in a box" gives us no excuse to make a liar out of Him.

 

[Simon Peter]

By your own logic then, the fact that you could not recognize the Spirit of God on Bentley's ministry (before he fell into sin), means that I should never listen to a thing you have to say?

What do you mean "before he fell into sin"?

Bentley was lying, teaching falsely, and in an adulterous relationship prior to Lakeland.

Just because there's manifestations in meetings, doesn't mean the Spirit of God. Manifestations can be the flesh, or even other spirits. Look up Kundalini. And in the New Testament look up false teachers and false prophets in the end times.

But at any rate, I would rather make the mistake of standing with a brother in the Lord who was being used by Him but is in the process of falling into sin; than stand with the Accuser of the Brethren, and exchange high fives with him when the guy eventually falls thinking that somehow proves I was right!

Hundreds of thousands of people have had their faith shaken over this ordeal, which was made all the worse by all the "godly" people criticizing Bentley's integrity and teaching before the marital indiscretions took place.

But IMO, anyone who feels that they are "right" because they "knew it" ahead of time, is listening to false religious spirits who want nothing more than to be "right" in this same way about each and every person who tries to follow Christ.

Any true Watchman of the Lord who did happen to learn about a popular minister before they fell, would be grieving over the havoc and destruction caused to the Body of Christ, not gloating over his superior "guessing ahead of time" skills!

You are obviously referring to my earlier statements in this thread, and implying that I have a "religious spirit", am an "accuser of the brethren", a 'godly criticizer', who "wants nothing more than to be right", and am 'gloating over my superior guessing skills'.


A couple of things:

1. I defend your right to form an opinion of me and criticize me, if you think that is what's warranted.

2. You clearly think you have the right to criticize me, my integrity, and accuse me of sin.

3. Do you think perhaps there may be a little hypocrisy here?

I mean, how come I'm not allowed to criticize Bentley, but you're allowed to criticize me?


I agree that Jesus is often gentle and restorative with sinners, but He was also harsh and critical at times. But one thing that Jesus was consistently critical of was hypocrisy.

peace,
Simon

 

[K2K]

If we are talking about religious spirits, then it is spirits that we are talking about, not men. We then are not talking about Wagner or Bently are we, but how religious spirits work and effect people.

All angels are ministering spirits! Angels that serve the Lord minister in such a way as to glorify the Lord. Fallen angels (demons) minister in ways as to not glority the Lord. We call spirits 'religious spirits' because they minister religion as opposed to ministering the Lord.

Because they are religious spirits, they are spirits that are at work in every Christian church!!!!

This is important to understand so I'll repeat it. Religious spirits can be found working in every Christian church!! And they take up cheif seats if they can. The seats are people.

If you are a person in leadership at a church, you will come under attack by religious spirits!!!

In the book Revelation, John, on behalf of 'Him who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, and John wrote to seven the seven churches that are in Asia, but John specfically wrote to the seven angels at those churches!!!

Were that angels specfically written to angels that served the Lord or were they demonic angels that we call religious spirits?

Rev 2 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write...Therefor remember from where you have fallen

Demons are fallen angels! There was a religious spirit in a position of authority at Ehpesus

Rev 2:12-13 To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:... I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is

Jacob saw a ladder where angels from the Lord were ascending and descending. Those anels did not dwell where Satan's throne is.

Rev 33 To the angel of the church in Sardis write: I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Angels that serve the Lord are alive

And to the angels at all seven chruches is was written, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.."

What type of angels has to be told to let those people that can hear, hear what the Spirit has to say?

Religious spirits are deaf dump spirits, and our battle is not with flesh and blood but powers and principalities!! Perhaps the most difficult powers and principalities to deal with and discern are the powers and principalities that take up positions of authority (our leaders) inside our own church!!

Religious spirits are 'religious spirits' because they tell you to make it about works of religion instead of making it about hearing what the Spirit of God has to say to us!!! And they like to minister to people in authority in our church!!

Please note: Religious spirits are not the only spirits that operate inside the church. Religious spirits are deaf dump spirits because they do not want you listening to the Spirit of God. They have to be told to let those that hear, hear what the Spirit of God has to say.

Spirits of false prophecy (and there are many spirits under the False prophet) don't prevent people from hearingm but pretend to be the Spirit of God. Check for spirits of false prophecy using 1 Jn 3:1-4

The best I could tell, Bently was looking to hear from the Spirit of God. It was doubt full that a religious spirit was going to have much effect upon him. He was probably more vulnerable to an attack by a spirit of false prophecy instead of a religious spirit.

The devil/ devils come to kill and destroy, and that means they come after us. We are all subject to it. There are demons that love to accuse also. So we need to turn to the Lord and hear what the Spirit of God has to say, and we need to check the spirits like is written in the Scriptures, and we all battle with powers and principalities, so if anyone is thinking they have it all together and they are not subject to attack or being tricked by a fallen ministering spirit (demon) they need to remember that the Lord told his disciple to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

I have some questions. When Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil, was Jesus talking to the person or the religious spirits manipulating the person?

When He told Peter, "Satan get behind Me." was Jesus talking to Peter or the spirit manipulation Peter?

If we don't listen to what the Spirit has to say and check the spirits, who is going to get fooled?

It's a good thing that God has choosen to use the foolish things of the world>

 

[Tobias]

What do you mean "before he fell into sin"?

Bentley was lying, teaching falsely, and in an adulterous relationship prior to Lakeland.

Just because there's manifestations in meetings, doesn't mean the Spirit of God. Manifestations can be the flesh, or even other spirits. Look up Kundalini. And in the New Testament look up false teachers and false prophets in the end times.




You are obviously referring to my earlier statements in this thread, and implying that I have a "religious spirit", am an "accuser of the brethren", a 'godly criticizer', who "wants nothing more than to be right", and am 'gloating over my superior guessing skills'.


A couple of things:

1. I defend your right to form an opinion of me and criticize me, if you think that is what's warranted.

2. You clearly think you have the right to criticize me, my integrity, and accuse me of sin.

3. Do you think perhaps there may be a little hypocrisy here?

I mean, how come I'm not allowed to criticize Bentley, but you're allowed to criticize me?


I agree that Jesus is often gentle and restorative with sinners, but He was also harsh and critical at times. But one thing that Jesus was consistently critical of was hypocrisy.

peace,
Simon

Oh no, do feel free to criticize away!


So... now Bentley was in an adulterous affair before Lakeland began? According to who? Because according to the two people who would actually know (himself and the new Mrs. Bentley), nothing happened before the marriage fell apart. This is where I draw the line, personally. This is where I sensed things go south at Lakeland, and also when Bentley stepped back and started letting other people take over.


In the Bible we see the story of the Pharisees bringing a woman caught in adultery before Jesus. How was this woman caught? Did the Pharisees spend their time looking into people's windows and seeing what they are up to?

The ability to catch someone in adultery has nothing to do with being able to rightly divide the Truth from the scriptures. It also has little to do with being able to correctly sense the Spirit of God. Samson got up one night out of the bed of a harlot, and ripped the gates off the city and carried them up to the top of a nearby mountain.

I'm not sure exactly where God draws the line with a preacher that is struggling. But just like Samson, we know that He does use them, up until the point when He doesn't. If God was using Bentley at Lakeland during the evenings, and he was cheating on his wife during the rest of his time... then I will refer you to Samson. But if it simply is people who follow religious spirits that have special insight into the extent of Bentley's sin, then we need to recognize that as well and consider the source of their information!

Did the Pharisees really want to find adulterers, so they believed everybody who came to them with eyewitness accounts? Did they already determine that the guy she slept with was a danger to their teachings, so when he "fell" they jumped up and down in glee, and immediately executed him but weren't sure what to do with the woman?


Peeping Tom abilities are a completely different set of skills than being able to understand and teach the scriptures!

 

[K2K]

The Pharisees did not listen to the Spirit of God and did not know Jesus Christ. Correctly teaching the Scriptures require both studying the Scriptures and listening to what the Spirit of God has to say. And even then there needs to be a calling from the Spirit of God to do it, otherwise we are not following the Spirit of God.

Could a man have studied the Scriptures, hear from the Spirit of God, have a calling to teach, then teach, and still make mistakes in his life?

If I am expecting others (teachers called by the Spirit) to turn to the Lord, then don't I have the same expectations for myself? I see that I sometimes do the very thing I don't want to do. Not me then, but sin in me. If I see that in myself, like Paul saw that in himself, then don't I have understanding when I see it in others.

Who then takes a conversation about religious spirits and turns it into an opportunity to attack people? Is it someone that understands that our battle is not with flesh and blood, but powers and principalities? Or is it someone who is correctly judged by the way they are judging others.

Religious spirits are spirits that don't want you to depend upon religion instead of listening to the Lord!!

If you are concerned about signs and events at other churches, didn't you ask the Lord? What did He say to you? Do you have ears to hear?

If you are concerned about other people and their sins, did you then turn to the Lord of advice first? What did He say to you? Do you have ears to hear?

If you are concerned about religious spirits, did you turn to the Lord for advice and understanding? What did He say to you?

As for me, He asked me to post this morning. I posted prior to this a teaching I heard from Him, concerning the book of Revelation and what specifically was written to each angels at the churches. Those angels incharge at the churches were fallen angels, which dwell where Satans throne are, and all had to be told to let those that could hear, hear what the Spirit of God says. So if they told to let those that could hear, hear what the Spirit of Gos says, should we be trying to hear what the Spirit says also, or should we be turning a topic of religious spirits into an opportunity to cast stones at our fellow men?

We need to be looking for how religious spirits effect us, not the other guy. So a topic on religious is very appropriate, but changing a topic on powers and principalities into a topic about flesh and blood is missing the whole point.