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[DZoolander]

I have never understood why so many Christians believe that masturbation is a sin. Such a heavy burden of guilt to carry.

lol - as I've mentioned a number of times in this forum over the years - that's actually the issue that drove me away from the church as a child (and never went back). It wasn't just a "sin" - according to our pastor it was second only to murder in the eyes of God (in fairness though - he was talking about all sexual immorality - but made note that masturbation was included in that).

The guilt (and honestly insanity) that brought into my life for a number of years during my adolescence is something I really never got over - and my resentment over that continues to influence my perception of the church to this day (at nearly 50 years old). It's the reason I won't take my children to church - because I'm not having some yahoo subject them to that.

I'll provide them the guidance I think is important in terms of ethics and morality - until they're old enough to make their own judgements.

 

[tall73]

lol - as I've mentioned a number of times in this forum over the years - that's actually the issue that drove me away from the church as a child (and never went back). It wasn't just a "sin" - according to our pastor it was second only to murder in the eyes of God (in fairness though - he was talking about all sexual immorality - but made note that masturbation was included in that).

The guilt (and honestly insanity) that brought into my life for a number of years during my adolescence is something I really never got over - and my resentment over that continues to influence my perception of the church to this day (at nearly 50 years old). It's the reason I won't take my children to church - because I'm not having some yahoo subject them to that.

I'll provide them the guidance I think is important in terms of ethics and morality - until they're old enough to make their own judgements.

Once your kids are old enough to understand the implications of such statements by a church leader, they are also old enough to frankly discuss the topic with you so you can lay out any disagreement. I understand the desire to keep your kids from being influenced by such guilt. On the other hand, they will encounter many thoughts we disagree with over the years, and as parents we need to debrief and give more info.

Ultimately this approach helps kids to learn to think and evaluate, because, as much as we would like to, we cannot keep them from all statements we would wish them to avoid.

Keep in mind the positive benefits and encouragement that come from involvement as well. There is a cost to missing out on that as much as there is to being exposed to the wrong messages.

While we agreed with most things presented by spiritual leaders in the church, our children (getting older now) will bring up with us if they disagree or wonder about a particular theological or practical application made. And we do the same.

If we think a statement is particularly off-track and may cause people issues we also will approach the person who said it in the hopes they can clarify.

 

[Dave-W]

Hmm...probably depends on the topic I suppose.

I'm still a newlywed LOL

Understood. I was talking specifically about the topic "at hand." (LOL)
Masturbation.

 

[Dave-W]

Once your kids are old enough to understand the implications of such statements by a church leader, they are also old enough to frankly discuss the topic with you so you can lay out any disagreement. I understand the desire to keep your kids from being influenced by such guilt. On the other hand, they will encounter many thoughts we disagree with over the years, and as parents we need to debrief and give more info.

If they are old enough to get all that, they are also old enough to pick up on non-verbal communication. If you are negative about this topic, they will pick up on it, even if you try to be positive in your presentation and discussion. That negativity can carry the same guilt and condemnation as if you were yelling and screaming - at least to some kids.

 

[Dave-W]

I have never understood why so many Christians believe that masturbation is a sin. Such a heavy burden of guilt to carry.

That is one topic I wish would be asked in the Questions From Singles About Marriage folder.

You know, questions like "what will my future wife/husband think of the fact that I did this almost every day???"

 

[DZoolander]

Once your kids are old enough to understand the implications of such statements by a church leader, they are also old enough to frankly discuss the topic with you so you can lay out any disagreement. I understand the desire to keep your kids from being influenced by such guilt. On the other hand, they will encounter many thoughts we disagree with over the years, and as parents we need to debrief and give more info.

Ultimately this approach helps kids to learn to think and evaluate, because, as much as we would like to, we cannot keep them from all statements we would wish them to avoid.

Keep in mind the positive benefits and encouragement that come from involvement as well. There is a cost to missing out on that as much as there is to being exposed to the wrong messages.

While we agreed with most things presented by spiritual leaders in the church, our children (getting older now) will bring up with us if they disagree or wonder about a particular theological or practical application made. And we do the same.

If we think a statement is particularly off-track and may cause people issues we also will approach the person who said it in the hopes they can clarify.

I dunno how much I agree with that.

At the point when the pastor gave us that talk I already knew that sexual stuff was a big issue. I had also started to “connect the dots” with how masturbation fit in with sexuality (although it was still pretty early.). So if the goal was to put the fear of God unto me and most effectively persuade me about it at the time - it was absolutely the right time to lodge that message into my head lol.

I can’t imagine at that age being able to draw the distinctions I believe to be important in considering those things - or being willing to engage my folks in a discussion about those nuances. So, given the authority I placed in the church leadership and elders, combined with my rudimentary understanding of things, I gave it a pass and took him at his word.

And it reeked havoc on my life for years. I mean, literally feeling like I was next to a murderer in God’s eyes because I’d rub myself...lol

Everyone talks a good game about how they want to have really open and honest discussions with their kids about things - where the kids will feel comfortable talking to them about anything. Heck - I’d like that too. But I have no delusions that I actually will have that. There are going to be plenty of things that circumstantially my kids likely won’t talk to me about - either out of shame or for whatever reason. And I can totally see this being one of them - due to personal experience.

I do agree with you though that you can’t prevent your child from all harmful messages. That is absolutely true. But where you can - you can do your best to keep them from swimming with sharks.

All else being equal this is something I see as prevalent enough and of a serious enough nature for their well being that I do see it that way.

 

[Dave-W]

And it reeked havoc on my life for years. I mean, literally feeling like I was next to a murderer in God’s eyes because I’d rub myself...lol

I too have seen the long term bad fruit of that teaching. Some around my area actually taught it was WORSE.

It was the "sin so bad it cannot even be mentioned in a HOLY Bible."

That made it worse that adultery, worse than inappropriate behavior with animals, worse than murder, worse than even blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave-W]

I do agree with you though that you can’t prevent your child from all harmful messages. That is absolutely true. But where you can - you can do your best to keep them from swimming with sharks.

Amen. Or at least give them some TRUTH that is a great shark repellent.

All else being equal this is something I see as prevalent enough and of a serious enough nature for their well being that I do see it that way.

I see it that way too. VERY serious.

 

[tall73]

Everyone talks a good game about how they want to have really open and honest discussions with their kids about things - where the kids will feel comfortable talking to them about anything. Heck - I’d like that too. But I have no delusions that I actually will have that. There are going to be plenty of things that circumstantially my kids likely won’t talk to me about - either out of shame or for whatever reason. And I can totally see this being one of them - due to personal experience.

You don't have to wait for kids to bring it up. You can give information proactively. Once that is done they may in fact talk to you about things if a spiritual leader says something that disagrees with what you already talked to them about.

I do agree with you though that you can’t prevent your child from all harmful messages. That is absolutely true. But where you can - you can do your best to keep them from swimming with sharks.

I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing, but it sounds like you see the sharks as spiritual leaders. Do you have the same attitude about letting them attend school, talk to peers etc.?

 

[tall73]

All else being equal this is something I see as prevalent enough and of a serious enough nature for their well being that I do see it that way.

Anything so serious it could derail their life is worth sitting them down about whether they seek out your advice or not. You know they are going to get advice somewhere.

 

[Dave-W]

You don't have to wait for kids to bring it up. You can give information proactively. Once that is done they may in fact talk to you about things.

Yes. That is important. If sexual matters have not been discussed, kids think it is a forbidden topic. So even if they have questions or comments, most will just keep quiet.

 

[DZoolander]

You don't have to wait for kids to bring it up. You can give information proactively. Once that is done they may in fact talk to you about things if a spiritual leader says something that disagrees with what you already talked to them about.


I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing, but it sounds like you see the sharks as spiritual leaders. Do you have the same attitude about letting them attend school, talk to peers etc.?

Yes, I see a lot of “spiritual leaders” as being “sharks” in this context - far more so than any secular people.

I’m nearly 50 years old - and I’ve spent a ton of time in both religious and secular circles. And ya know - the most damaging and wrongheaded stuff I’ve come across came from the spiritual side.

That’s not to say the secular folks have it all “right” - but ya know - it’s just some dude with his opinion that either makes sense or it doesn’t. Everything I hear from them is couched in that understanding. I’m free to either accept or reject their way of thinking. At most - we just won’t be friends.

The secular guy isn’t using the authority of God to bludgeon me into believing the way he does. No secular person has ever threatened my immortal soul and told me I was in for an eternity of hellfire and anguish if I don’t accept his way of thinking. That God is going to sentence me to an eternity of burning at 12 years old, and that I was nearly as bad as a murderer, because I rubbed myself.

Religious leaders have.

 

[tall73]

Yes, I see a lot of “spiritual leaders” as being “sharks” in this context - far more so than any secular people.

I’m nearly 50 years old - and I’ve spent a ton of time in both religious and secular circles. And ya know - the most damaging and wrongheaded stuff I’ve come across came from the spiritual side.

That’s not to say the secular folks have it all “right” - but ya know - it’s just some dude with his opinion that either makes sense or it doesn’t. Everything I hear from them is couched in that understanding. I’m free to either accept or reject their way of thinking. At most - we just won’t be friends.

The secular guy isn’t using the authority of God to bludgeon me into believing the way he does. No secular person has ever threatened my immortal soul and told me I was in for an eternity of hellfire and anguish if I don’t accept his way of thinking. That God is going to sentence me to an eternity of burning at 12 years old, and that I was nearly as bad as a murderer, because I rubbed myself.

Religious leaders have.

So have any secular people given bad advice on other subjects?

Are the spiritual leaders you encountered giving bad advice on all subjects?

It seems on this point you could have a conversation that would offset the damage.

On the other hand, it seems while this may have led to a crisis for you in your early life, it is not the only issue you have with organized Christianity, so of course, you have to act on the conclusions you have come to overall.

My point is simply that if parents do talk to their kids about it they have the opportunity to minimize damage on this topic.

 

[DZoolander]

Of course secular people have given me bad advice... . But like I said - everyone understands it’s just some dude and his opinion.

His bad advice doesn’t come with the baggage of having some sort of authority assigned to him, where he is trying to convince you that his opinion carries the weight of God behind it - with the fate of your eternal soul hanging in the balance lol

 

[DZoolander]

and yep - it’s mostly organized religion and the idea of the clergy that gives me issues

 

[DZoolander]

On a side note though - I recently accepted a position at a faith based organization and went to my first devotional in decades today.

Wasn’t so bad!

 

[Endeavourer]

To the OP,

When you want something different from how your spouse wants it, a fair question is "Is there a way we could [what I want] that you would be enthusiastic about [doing what I want]?"

If your husband gives you a reluctant agreement, then the agreement won't hold up for long, so brainstorm about ways he'd be enthusiastic, or conditions that catch his attention to cause his excitement. Also, you don't want tobrow beat or guilt his giver to concede to you, or else his take will eventually rise up and it won't be pretty.

Try to find a solution that you're mutually enthusiastic about. The person who wants the activity the most has the responsibility to create conditions that would make the other person enthusiastic to participate in the activity.

Also, if he engages in any self satisfaction and/or inappropriate content viewing, then those behaviors are terribly unfair to you. Once married, it's critical that sexual fulfilment is exclusively limited to mutual activities or else things start falling out of balance....which is a whole 'nuther post.

 

[tall73]

Of course secular people have given me bad advice... . But like I said - everyone understands it’s just some dude and his opinion.

His bad advice doesn’t come with the baggage of having some sort of authority assigned to him, where he is trying to convince you that his opinion carries the weight of God behind it - with the fate of your eternal soul hanging in the balance lol

I get that. But unless you reject the notion of God entirely, then there is a reality to God, and so you cannot completely escape trying to come to some idea of what that reality is (or determining that you cannot). You came to the point where you drew your own conclusions about what that reality is. And so will your child. The key is to help them think that through, talk over what that means, and teach them not to just rely on spiritual leaders to know God. Everyone wrestles with the questions. Even Paul, a spiritual leader, commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to see whether the things he said were true.

Paul didn't want them to take everything he said at face value, but to evaluate it in order to see if it was true.

 

[DZoolander]

I get that. But unless you reject the notion of God entirely, then there is a reality to God, and so you cannot completely escape trying to come to some idea of what that reality is (or determining that you cannot). You came to the point where you drew your own conclusions about what that reality is. And so will your child. The key is to help them think that through, talk over what that means, and teach them not to just rely on spiritual leaders to know God. Everyone wrestles with the questions. Even Paul, a spiritual leader, commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to see whether the things he said were true.

Paul didn't want them to take everything he said at face value, but to evaluate it in order to see if it was true.

Completely agree.

My sole reservation to that whole thing though is them being exposed to other people's "truths" at too early of an age - before they lack the critical thinking skills to discern between what makes sense to them and what does not.

The way I've chosen to guide my kids is by starting with the over-arching concepts of morality. I start with something like Matthew 22:

[34] But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

---

I agree with Jesus. I'm of the opinion, and always have been of the opinion, that all morality springs from those basic maxims. Can someone fit murder into loving their neighbor as themselves? Can someone fit adultery into that framework? Theft? Bearing false witness? IMHO no. All morality is derived from those very basic ideas.

And I think that once they've come to understand that framework - that everything else ought fall in line (or at least make sense to them) in a way where they can discern for themselves whether or not to believe what someone tells them.

Too often I think morality is taught as just simply a list of rules. This is wrong, this is right, because that is wrong by association this must be wrong as well, etc etc etc. That's how I was originally taught morality. Someone with the power of God seemingly behind him tells you what is acceptable and unacceptable action - without any real discussion or understanding of why that may be.

But at 7, 8, 9, 10, etc...I think they're still too young to understand nuance or say "Does what the Pastor say make sense within that over-arching moral framework?" ... and to that end if I had my druthers they would not be exposed to those types of questions until they get the basics down right.

But who knows...I could be wrong. lol I'm just applying things in the way they make sense to me, and with what I perceive to be mis-steps I experienced growing up in mind.

I don't think I'm completely off base though. The other day my daughter came in crying because she "lost a friend over religion". Some friend of hers in class asked her about what she believes - and when my daughter wasn't of the same faith as the other little girl - the other little girl told her that she was going to hell and that she couldn't be friends with her any more.

That led to a discussion I wasn't really wanting or prepared to have - which is to explain to my daughter how people tend to view faith - how to discuss it with other people (or not discuss it in any detail) - etc. But yeah - at 7 years old - she's already getting the "You're going to hell because you don't believe as I believe" type of nonsense.

And that's in public school...lol

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I just have to ask... what do you mean that your not used to a man like him who doesn't want alot of sex. Does this imply you've been with alot of men then in the past?

That aside not wanting sex can be from any numbers of things. Overweight, depression, stress....etc. Most newlyweds though are busy bunny rabbits. Though for some it fades over time. My wife has her issues with sex and it drives me nuts too but I've learned to deal with it. Though shes fine if I want to.... you know, in order to release.