Relations

[Dave-W]

Why not? I have never had a wet dream in my life. Maybe you need to take a long look at your life, pray harder, and ask God's forgiveness.

The bible actually makes provision for that; the KJV words it as "That which chanceth by night." And there is no suggestion that it is sinful. Deuteronomy 23:10

So you can HONESTLY tell me you went thru your teens and 20s, up until you got married, and never had any kind of sexual desire?
And you NEVER masturbated?

If you were my kid and I heard that from you I would get you to an endocrinologist to make sure your glands were functioning normally.

I do not need God's forgiveness for being the way He made me and functioning according to design specifications. And I do not believe that He would forgive me for what was not a sin, even if I mistakenly thought it was.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Well, I don't know the individual circumstances of your own church. It sounds like they were abusing their position of trust. But that doesn't make them wrong about everything and lust is still a sin.

They were wrong in their insanely legalistic view of what "lust" is. Finding someone attractive isn't lust, and having sexual feelings isn't lust. But (except in the circumstance of your spouse) choosing to then think and dwell on those feelings/let them become thoughts and images, then we're in lustful territory, and you need to flee.

Oh, I see. You are smarter than all the biblical scholars who came before you. I hadn't realised. My bad.

And you're smarter than the biblical scholars who came before you and currently preaching?

Why not? I have never had a wet dream in my life. Maybe you need to take a long look at your life, pray harder, and ask God's forgiveness.

A wet dream - something you can't control and don't choose to have? If you feel the need to repent after, by all means do so - but I wouldn't group this in with lust or sin.

 

[Guy Incognito]

It is best not to feed the trolls. And anyone who claims ones hormones and naturally occurring bodily functions are sinful is most certainly either a troll or has his thumb too far up his bottom to be moved on the subject no matter the evidence or argumemt provided.

There's a joke here that can't be made...

 

[Jon Osterman]

So you can HONESTLY tell me you went thru your teens and 20s, up until you got married, and never had any kind of sexual desire?

Of course I have had sexual desire. I never claimed to be free of sin, but at least I recognise it as sin. And that is the first necessary step to forgiveness.

 

[Dave-W]

I never claimed to be free of sin, but at least I recognise it as sin.

And WHERE exactly did you get that idea that your desires were sin?
Did not God Himself make your hormones? And how your body reacts to them? If that is so, then the CANNOT be sin.

I am not saying that reacting to them or relieving them in certain ways is not sinful.

 

[Jon Osterman]

That is a really poor argument. You are claiming that

And WHERE exactly did you get that idea that your desires were sin?

From the Bible. For example, Hebrews 13:4, but there are plenty more.

Consider Matthew 22:30, there will be no marriage in heaven. So there is no sex in heaven. If sex were not sinful - if it were something that makes God happy, surely there would be sex in heaven. But there is not because it is not needed for procreation and enjoyment of sex for itself is a product of the Fall.

There has never been and will never be an instance of sex between two people who have not been cursed by the Fall.

Did not God Himself make your hormones? And how your body reacts to them? If that is so, then the CANNOT be sin.

This is a poor argument. There are many many desires and imperfections in the human body. Should a psychopath who desires to kill embrace that desire since he is made by God and thereby reasons his killing cannot be sin?

 

[Dave-W]

From the Bible. For example, Hebrews 13:4,

That does not speak at all to desires before you get married. It is saying once married, don't fool around with committing adultery. (a defilement)

Consider Matthew 22:30, there will be no marriage in heaven.

Actually that says no NEW marriages.

enjoyment of sex for itself is a product of the Fall.

James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

That includes the gift of sex. Paul called it such in 1 Cor 7.

There are many many desires and imperfections in the human body. Should a psychopath who desires to kill embrace that desire since he is made by God and thereby reasons his killing cannot be sin?

Are there as many psychopaths as there are people with sexual desires? Are there psychopaths in the animal world?

I desire to breathe air. I desire to eat food. I desire to drink water or other beverage. Those desires are as universal as the sex drive. Are they all sinful?

Even if there is no sex in heaven, that does not imply that sex is sinful. After all, Paul said food and the stomach would both be done away with, but our Lord ate and drank. And He did no sin.

 

[Jon Osterman]

That does not speak at all to desires before you get married. It is saying once married, don't fool around with committing adultery. (a defilement)

You are going to make me quote these aren't you?

Hebrews 13:4
4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

If this were only about adultery it would not say "sexually immoral and adulterous". In other words, sexual immorality exists separately from adultery, i.e. in the bed of your spouse.

Actually that says no NEW marriages.

I think it is quite clear. Heaven could not be heaven if you remain married. Also Luke 20:35-36 and Matthew 22:29-30.

James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

That includes the gift of sex. Paul called it such in 1 Cor 7.

That is just you reinterpreting "good". 1 Cor 7 in fact says:

1 Corinthians 7
7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

So it is good to not have sex (with any woman, including your wife). But we have sex with our spouse because of sexual immorality. That is, sexual immorality (and the Fall) is the cause of sex within marriage.

I desire to breathe air. I desire to eat food. I desire to drink water or other beverage. Those desires are as universal as the sex drive. Are they all sinful?

Staw man. I never claimed that everything we desire is sinful. You, on the other hand, claimed anything we desire is not sinful because that desire has been given to us by God.

 

[Dave-W]

If this were only about adultery it would not say "sexually immoral and adulterous". In other words, sexual immorality exists separately from adultery, i.e. in the bed of your spouse.

Absolutely. Torah has a few prohibitions beyond just adultery. Sex during menses would be a common one. (remember that book was written to Jews who knew the Law)

I think it is quite clear. Heaven could not be heaven if you remain married. Also Luke 20:35-36 and Matthew 22:29-30.

Both passages say the same thing: "neither marry nor are given in marriage." Both phrases are NEW marriages: A groom marries a bride, and a bride is given in marriage to her groom. That says NOTHING about existing marriages where that was already done.

1 Corinthians 7
7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.

Bad translation.
A better one:

“It is good for a man not to kindle up the emotions of a woman.

Staw man. I never claimed that everything we desire is sinful. You, on the other hand, claimed anything we desire is not sinful because that desire has been given to us by God.

That is just becoming a cheap shot that deflects from the point we are trying to tell you: Sexual desire and enjoyment (in marriage) is COMMANDED by God and is to be enjoyed to its fullest. It is you that keeps insisting what God gave us is sinful. Since God gave it, and COMMANDED procreation, you are saying God is ordering us to sin. That is ridiculous.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Lest we get off topic more, I want to share this:
Pastor's Views

It's from a southern baptist minister, (people who aren't known for being "liberal"), sharing his scripturally informed view that masturbation isn't a sin.

Now I don't share this to say that @Jon Osterman 's view isn't scripturally informed (though I do not agree at all with his conclusions or understanding of those passages), but to illustrate that much of marital sexuality isn't a black and white issue (like masturbation isn't). It is complex and changes couple to couple, and there is scriptural room for that. Some are convicted of things that others aren't, and some things lead others to sin that wouldn't lead others to sin.

Personally, I think there is A LOT OF ROOM in the marriage bed for many things - but that's not the case for everyone, or everything.

There are things the Lord didn't hesitate to lable sin - but high sex drive (and a number of other sexual things) would't be in that catagory.


OP, I hope this thread has been helpful - would love an update.

 

[Dave-W]

Lest we get off topic more, I want to share this:
Pastor's Views

It's from a southern baptist minister, (people who aren't known for being "liberal"), sharing his scripturally informed view that masturbation isn't a sin.

Good article.

BTW - I know (via the internet) Paul and Lori, and the website they run. I used to be a regular over there.

ETA:

In the late 1960s Rev. Charles Shedd wrote a book "The Stork is Dead." He was a well known radio bible answer man. In that book which was the most asked questions on his show, he answered several hundered questions about masturbation. He said he believed it was "God's gift to singles" to help them manage their sex drives. He got death threats from that comment.

 

[Saricharity]

I have never understood why so many Christians believe that masturbation is a sin. Such a heavy burden of guilt to carry.

 

[Dave-W]

I have never understood why so many Christians believe that masturbation is a sin. Such a heavy burden of guilt to carry.

It has a long storied history, back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries when single old men called the Early church fathers (who were as much followers of Greek philosophy as they were of Jesus) vilianized even marital sex. It was taught that God grudgingly allowed married couples to have sex, but ONLY for producing babies. “More virgins for the church” as one of the early fathers put it.

So of course anything that resulted in sexual satisfaction that did not have an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] inside a fertile vagina was strictly forbidden.

But that being said, Masturbation was pretty much ignored until the 1700s when a French physician published a book outlining health detriments he attributed to relieving yourself. It became a HUGE issue of contention.

Do a google search on anti-masturbation devices patented in the US. But only if you want to see stuff that looks like it came from some Halloween slasher film.

 

[Dave-W]

I have never understood why so many Christians believe that masturbation is a sin. Such a heavy burden of guilt to carry.

You should get down on your knees and thank God every day, and your parents as often as you can, for not ram-rodding that anti-masturbation load of legalism on you.

I read story after story (some here on CF) of teens and older singles absolutely torn up over this. It breaks my heart.

 

[Deidre32]

And what led you to "realise" that it was not? Is it because you wanted to hide your sin from God, so made up a plausible counter story?



And they were right. Making an informed, logical and balanced choice is always preferable to acting in sin. You don't make lust not a sin by calling it "feelings".

Lust is merely defined as sexual desire for someone. Why do you believe that a spouse desiring the other spouse in a sexual way, is sinful? I think desiring people outside of marriage can be sinful, but you seem to think that a married couple wanting to enjoy sex together is sinful. I don't know where in the Bible you're deriving this from?

 

[Dave-W]

Lust is merely defined as sexual desire for someone. Why do you believe that a spouse desiring the other spouse in a sexual way, is sinful? I think desiring people outside of marriage can be sinful, but you seem to think that a married couple wanting to enjoy sex together is sinful. I don't know where in the Bible you're deriving this from?

He does not get that from the Bible, it is from the early church fathers who said that God so hates marital sex that the Holy Spirit has to vacate the building when a couple is so occupied.

 

[Saricharity]

You should get down on your knees and thank God every day, and your parents as often as you can, for not ram-rodding that anti-masturbation load of legalism on you.

I read story after story (some here on CF) of teens and older singles absolutely torn up over this. It breaks my heart.

Interestingly enough, I never came across this mentality until I read about it on this forum. I remember asking my mom and dad about it when I was a teenager after reading some interesting thoughts in the teen forum; my dad said he saw it mostly within the Catholic church. It's really too bad. There is enough to feel guilty about in life without heaping more.
I'm thankful both my parents never shied away from any conversation regarding human sexuality. I'm also thankful I have an older brother haha Any topic that my parents seemed squeamish about, I could spare them the discomfort and ask my brother. He was never shy about anything...and told more than I ever wanted or needed to know. LOL

 

[Dave-W]

my dad said he saw it mostly within the Catholic church.

That is certainly one place; but most fundamental and evangelical Protestants are or were the same way. Hopefully that is changing.

There used to be a show here in the US called somethings like “19 kids and counting.” It was about a family called the Dugars. There have been a few rather nasty scandals which led to the show being canceled. One that did not make it into the media was when one of the teen boys took too long in the bathroom and dad opened it up to find him doing the deed. He was beaten badly, and forced to do his siblings chores for several weeks, thus being shamed in front of all of them. (Mostly sisters)

 

[Dave-W]

Any topic that my parents seemed squeamish about, I could spare them the discomfort and ask my brother. He was never shy about anything...and told more than I ever wanted or needed to know. LOL

Interesting. Did his perspective differ much from your husband’s?

BTW - you should be very thankful for your bro as well. More info is definitely better.

 

[Saricharity]

Hmm...probably depends on the topic I suppose.

I'm still a newlywed LOL