Rejected passages

[Dissily Mordentroge]

I expect I may be posting this in the wrong section, if not entirely the wrong forum so will not be surprised to be told to go elsewhere. I am not a Christian but an agnostic with an interest in biblical studies. My reasons for not being a believer I won't bore you with at this time.
My question is this - - having recently stumbled across the passage below from the Koran and re-read John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture' and Douglas Lockharts's 'The Dark Side of God: A Quest for the Lost Heart of Christianity' I wonder if anyone here can list passages in The Old Testament (maybe in the New?) they either fully or partially reject. Jeremiah Ch 18: V: 15 - 17 comes to mind.

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"Oh Lord! For the day of whose coming there is not doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the wont of the people of Pharaoh, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehoods. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins, and God is severe in punishing .
Say to the infidels: ye shall be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch!"
Koran : Sura 3: V 7-10.

 

[timewerx]

I reject many of Apostle Paul's teachings because they contradict the teachings of Christ.

Example:

Romans 10 (whole chapter) vs Matthew 7:22-23 and John 12:47-48.

I also avoid The Old Testament.


I am a Christian but I only trust the teachings in the Gospel of John the most. I also read non-canon scriptures.

Many of Paul's teachings were based on ignorance and lack of foresight and is actually accessory to many of the biggest problems in our world today. Jesus did not create a religion. Jesus came as a bright beacon of hope to His lost sheep. Paul did not understand it and so created a religion that isn't making a difference at all in the world but is actually accessory to its evil.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

I reject many of Apostle Paul's teachings because they contradict the teachings of Christ.

Example:

Romans 10 (whole chapter) vs Matthew 7:22-23 and John 12:47-48.

I also avoid The Old Testament.


I am a Christian but I only trust the teachings in the Gospel of John the most. I also read non-canon scriptures.

Many of Paul's teachings were based on ignorance and lack of foresight and is actually accessory to many of the biggest problems in our world today. Jesus did not create a religion. Jesus came as a bright beacon of hope to His lost sheep. Paul did not understand it and so created a religion that isn't making a difference at all in the world but is actually accessory to its evil.

As far as I'm able to see through the fog of mistranslation, deliberate distortion and censorship of the Gospels by Rome and others over the centuries, Christ's central and most significant message was we can have a direct relationship with the Creator without any necessity for a priesthood or so called religious authority/organisation acting as intermediary. It's easy to see why the early Roman church would want to suppress this message at every opportunity.
My view is that much evil arises when every single word is taken to be that of God's in the documents we've inherited. I go further to suggest those claiming over the centuries to be speaking for and on behalf of The Almighty could be committing the greatest blasphemy of all.
As to Paul, I see him as devious even if he was being so on behalf of his 'vision' , a vision driven by ideas he considered of utmost importance even though they often did not reflect much of Christ's actual teachings. Matthew Ch:24.V:4-5 comes to mind.Douglas Lockhart writes very well on this in his 'The Dark Side of God' in chapter 10 The Nazarine Community: Paul and James. Page 183 (Publ 1999 Element Books)

 

[Timothew]

I expect I may be posting this in the wrong section, if not entirely the wrong forum so will not be surprised to be told to go elsewhere. I am not a Christian but an agnostic with an interest in biblical studies.

Hello Dissily,

You have posted in the wrong section, not because your question was improper, but merely because this is a place for Christians to discuss doctrines that are not accepted by "mainstream" Christianity. Since you are not a Christian, you should ask again in an area of CF where non Christians can discuss these things. I'm not a moderator or anyone of authority, I'm just trying to help. May God bless you.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

Hello Dissily,

You have posted in the wrong section, not because your question was improper, but merely because this is a place for Christians to discuss doctrines that are not accepted by "mainstream" Christianity. Since you are not a Christian, you should ask again in an area of CF where non Christians can discuss these things. I'm not a moderator or anyone of authority, I'm just trying to help. May God bless you.

Thanks Timothew, (Timothy & Matthew?)
Can you point me to an area of CF where non Christians can discuss these things? I hope any such an area won't be devoid of Christians willing to discuss such matters as my particular question is largely addressed to believers in the light of their acceptance, or more importantly non acceptance, of all scripture having equal authority.
I confess though that I have no firm definition in my head of what 'mainstream Christianity' actually is.
Anyhow, maybe I'd best leave this to the moderators to move to the correct section?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Dissily, I think the "Exploring Christianity" board is probably perfect for this as it is a place for non-Christians to ask Christians questions about Christianity. But like you said, moving your thread is best left to a Moderator.

BTW, WELCOME TO CF ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[timewerx]

Hello Dissily,

You have posted in the wrong section, not because your question was improper, but merely because this is a place for Christians to discuss doctrines that are not accepted by "mainstream" Christianity. Since you are not a Christian, you should ask again in an area of CF where non Christians can discuss these things. I'm not a moderator or anyone of authority, I'm just trying to help. May God bless you.

I thought this was the perfect place for his post.

His convictions reflect the sentiment of some Christians including myself. Although he claims to be Agnostic, "labels" often doesn't fully describe who we really are inside. I think Mr. Dissily is a follower of Christ.

 

[St_Worm2]

As far as I'm able to see through the fog of mistranslation, deliberate distortion and censorship of the Gospels by Rome and....

Hi Dissily, that is quite a claim to make. Do you have proof of intentional mistranslation and deliberate distortion and censorship of the Gospels by Rome that you could share with us? Thanks! You continue:

My view is that much evil arises when every single word is taken to be that of God's in the documents we've inherited. I go further to suggest those claiming over the centuries to be speaking for and on behalf of The Almighty could be committing the greatest blasphemy of all.

Again, do you have any proof of this, any real life examples of the evil that arises when the Bible is actually considered to be inspired/breathed by God, IOW, not of human authorship alone?

As far as preaching goes, the Bible does say quite a bit about "false teachers" and we are told to beware of them and recognize and avoid their teachings. As far as regular preaching and preachers go however, God in both the OT and the NT called prophets and evangelists, preachers and teachers, to go forth into the world and speak for Him. If not for preachers/teachers of God's word, how would anyone know anything about Him, what He thinks and expects of us, or how we can saved, especially in a world where most do not read (well, until more recently anyway) .. You continue:

As to Paul, I see him as devious ...

St. Paul "devious"? Please explain further/give us examples of what you mean please. You continue:

...even if he was being so on behalf of his 'vision' , a vision driven by ideas he considered of utmost importance even though they often did not reflect much of Christ's actual teachings.

He taught the Apostles and they wrote down what He said for us. How is this different in St. Paul's case (who spent just as much time with the Lord as any of the other Apostles did, albeit after He was Risen) ..

Do you believe that some of the words in the Bible could be God's very own words? If so, by what method do we discern which words are and which words are not Divinely inspired?

Thanks again!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

I thought this was the perfect place for his post.

His convictions reflect the sentiment of some Christians including myself. Although he claims to be Agnostic, "labels" often doesn't fully describe who we really are inside. I think Mr. Dissily is a follower of Christ.

No, I'm not a 'follower of Christ' in any sense I understand the term. The furthest I can agree to that assertion is to admit a long standing desire to see though the smoke screen of centuries of distortion in an attempt to discover who,and what, Christ actually was.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . . Douglas Lockhart writes very well on this in his 'The Dark Side of God' in chapter 10 The Nazarine Community: Paul and James. Page 183 (Publ 1999 Element Books)

What is your standard, how do you determine that someone supposedly writes very well about God, Paul and James?

. . . Koran : Sura 3: V 7-10.

The Quran was written in Saudi Arabia supposedly by an illiterate nomadic Arab, 750+ miles from Jerusalem, about 500 years after Christ. What makes you think that this writing has any relevant truth about Jesus, His disciples, the NT or the church? Where it contradicts the OT and the NT, about God, Jesus, Mary and the disciples why would you think the Quran was the truth and the Bible written by eye witnesses is a lie?

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

Hi Dissily, that is quite a claim to make. Do you have proof of intentional mistranslation and deliberate distortion and censorship of the Gospels by Rome that you could share with us? Thanks! You continue:



Again, do you have any proof of this, any real life examples of the evil that arises when the Bible is actually considered to be inspired/breathed by God, IOW, not of human authorship alone?

As far as preaching goes, the Bible does say quite a bit about "false teachers" and we are told to beware of them and recognize and avoid their teachings. As far as regular preaching and preachers go however, God in both the OT and the NT called prophets and evangelists, preachers and teachers, to go forth into the world and speak for Him. If not for preachers/teachers of God's word, how would anyone know anything about Him, what He thinks and expects of us, or how we can saved, especially in a world where most do not read (well, until more recently anyway) .. You continue:



St. Paul "devious"? Please explain further/give us examples of what you mean please. You continue:



He taught the Apostles and they wrote down what He said for us. How is this different in St. Paul's case (who spent just as much time with the Lord as any of the other Apostles did, albeit after He was Risen) ..

Do you believe that some of the words in the Bible could be God's very own words? If so, by what method do we discern which words are and which words are not Divinely inspired?

David

First off this risks wandering a long way from where I started by widening the discussion into the realm of modern biblical scholarship. I have already quoted two references which influence my thinking in relation to your requests. A detailed explanation of Pauls relation to Christ, the early distortions of Christ's teachings by the church of Rome and others is contained in these. Even to paraphrase, for instance just Lockhart's disertation on these themes would take a huge amount of space. As is often the case when a perspective such as mine is presented to true believers I sense a desperate psychological need to accept everything in the Gospels as 'gospel truth'. Without wishing to be insulting I can only say such a need can be seen from my perspective as risking blasphemy.
As to your question about 'God's very own words' what basis do you have in thinking anything a creator might say to us would be comprehensible from a human perspective let alone able to be conveyed in mere words?

 

[Der Alte]

No, I'm not a 'follower of Christ' in any sense I understand the term. The furthest I can agree to that assertion is to admit a long standing desire to see though the smoke screen of centuries of distortion in an attempt to discover who,and what, Christ actually was.

Since you acknowledge that you are not a "'follower of Christ' in any sense" you should not be posting in this forum because it is for Christians only. How did you determine that Christianity was a "smoke screen of centuries of distortion." Have you actually read the Bible through or did you decide this after reading anti-Christian literature or websites?

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

Since you acknowledge that you are not a "'follower of Christ' in any sense" you should not be posting in this forum because it is for Christians only. How did you determine that Christianity was a "smoke screen of centuries of distortion." Have you actually read the Bible through or did you decide this after reading anti-Christian literature or websites?

And have you read my previous posts? I have read and re-read the bible over many decades in several translations. Job Ch:8. V:9-11 comes to mind.
What constitutes 'Anti-Christian literature'?

 

[Der Alte]

And have you read my previous posts? I have read and re-read the bible over many decades in several translations.
What constitutes 'Anti-Christian literature'?

I have reread your posts I cannot find where you claimed to have "read and re-read the bible over many decades in several translations." What constitutes anti-Christain literature? Anything that attacks or tries to discredit, God, Jesus, the Bible or Christianity in any way. IMHO Spong is about as far away from a Christian as anyone that I know of. You seem to be able to find ample writings which support your anti-Christian assumptions/presuppositions. In the interests of fairness the next time you read something that attacks the Bible, try googling and find a Christian argument which refutes the anti- argument.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

What is your standard, how do you determine that someone supposedly writes very well about God, Paul and James?



The Quran was written in Saudi Arabia supposedly by an illiterate nomadic Arab, 750+ miles from Jerusalem, about 500 years after Christ. What makes you think that this writing has any relevant truth about Jesus, His disciples, the NT or the church? Where it contradicts the OT and the NT, about God, Jesus, Mary and the disciples why would you think the Quran was the truth and the Bible written by eye witnesses is a lie?

Did I make any such claims? I quoted from the Koran simply as an example of a passage I read as demonstrating an evil doctrine contained in what some regard as a holy book. I was not claiming any relevant truth about Jesus contained therein. 2nd Thessalonians Ch:2.V:11 comes to mind.
The Bible written by eye witnesses?? A claim modern biblical scholarship puts aside as unproven, if not either only a partial truth or at times downright wrong.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

I have reread your posts I cannot find where you claimed to have "read and re-read the bible over many decades in several translations." What constitutes anti-Christain literature? Anything that attacks or tries to discredit, God, Jesus, the Bible or Christianity in any way. IMHO Spong is about as far away from a Christian as anyone that I know of. You seem to be able to find ample writings which support your anti-Christian assumptions/presuppositions. In the interests of fairness the next time you read something that attacks the Bible, try googling and find a Christian argument which refutes the anti- argument.

It's a peculiar claim to assert Shelby Spong is not a Christian. It is sadly impossible though to discuss such matters in a logical manner with a 'true believer'. The eternal barrier of a fall back position of acceptance on faith prevents fruitful discussion of any kind. Exodus Ch:4.V:1.
As to googling in an attempt to find 'a Christian argument which refutes the anti-argument' I have had the privelage of many personal discussions with Christian theologians over the decades, some of whom took a line similar to yours, and others who thought very much like Shelby Spong and some who found themselves in between and all of whom described themselves as Christian. It would appear however the definition 'Christian' can cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Der Alte]

Did I make any such claim? I quoted from the Koran simply as an example of a passage I read as demonstrating an evil doctrine contained in what some regard as a holy book. I was not claiming any relevant truth about Jesus contained therein. 2nd Thessalonians Ch:2.V:11 comes to mind.

Here is your quote from the Quran again. Please show me where it says anything like "an evil doctrine contained in what some regard as a holy book."

"Oh Lord! For the day of whose coming there is not doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the wont of the people of Pharaoh, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehoods. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins, and God is severe in punishing .
Say to the infidels: ye shall be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch!"
Koran : Sura 3: V 7-10.​

Irrelevant what you did or did not say about Jesus and the Quran. I know from having read the Quran that it contradicts the OT and NT in many places. Allah of the Quran is not YHWH of the OT. Even in the OT YHWH is called Father. Allah is not Father to his followers but a slave master. The Arabic name Abdullah means slave of Allah. The Quran claims that Jesus was not the Son of God that He was not crucified.

The Bible written by eye witnesses?? A claim modern biblical scholarship puts aside as unproven, if not either only a partial truth or at times downright wrong.

"modern biblical scholarship" is a logical fallacy, appeal to authority. There may be some anti-Christian pseudoscholarship which rejects the eyewitness accounts in the Bible but any such claims should be clearly identified. Many of the eyewitness accounts in the NT are supported by the writings of the early church. Be that as it may which accounts of Jesus are most likely to be accurate. Those written at or near the time of Jesus, by His daily companions, in His home country, in a language that Jesus and His countrymen spoke or something written 500 years +/- later, 750+ miles away, in another country, in another language that Jesus and His countrymen did not speak?

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

Here is your quote from the Quran again. Please show me where it says anything like "an evil doctrine contained in what some regard as a holy book."

Please read more carefully. I choose not to communicate with those who continually misinterpret me.

I know from having read the Quran that it contradicts the OT and NT in many places.

Yes it does, so what?

"modern biblical scholarship" is a logical fallacy, appeal to authority.

Seriously,you should repeat philosophy 101 year one. Congratulations on your attempt at lucidity.

 

[timewerx]

No, I'm not a 'follower of Christ' in any sense I understand the term. The furthest I can agree to that assertion is to admit a long standing desire to see though the smoke screen of centuries of distortion in an attempt to discover who,and what, Christ actually was.

May your sojourn be fruitful then, either ways, I trust that you know what you're doing. I still can't paint a complete picture of who Christ is in the Bible myself. I can't even ascertain His name is Jesus - He never introduced Himself as "Jesus" to the original 12 disciples. While the four Gospels named Christ as Jesus, Jesus Himself, never mentioned His own name. Jesus either introduced Himself as "I am" or the "Son of Man".

The only instance He introduced Himself as "Jesus" was to Paul. And I found it equally interesting and disturbing. A veritable red flag - this is not the same behavior of the Jesus I know.

"The sheep knows the voice of their master"

It says there "voice" and not "name"! Therefore, the overall nature of Jesus is far more important than name! If we can't scrutinize the behavior of Jesus in scriptures, boy are we in great trouble!

I am only certain about the logic of Christ but not so much about His worldly parameters - name, race, nationality, sex, marital status, etc.

Since you acknowledge that you are not a "'follower of Christ' in any sense" you should not be posting in this forum because it is for Christians only. How did you determine that Christianity was a "smoke screen of centuries of distortion." Have you actually read the Bible through or did you decide this after reading anti-Christian literature or websites?

I agree with everything Mr. Dissily said so far. Does this make me an Agnostic too??

The only difference between the two of us is labels. And I think there are things far bigger than labels we should be concerning ourselves with.

I have the world as evidence enough of the accessory of false teachings to its evil.

 

[Albion]

Still in all, the Exploring Christianity forum would come closer to being the correct place, as was suggested to you. This one certainly is not, so you'd be doing yourself a favor by making the move...and pronto.