Rejected Christ after Salvation?

[Ben johnson]

I am blessed if I've helped you in any way. Never be afraid to ask something --- "there are no stupid questions"...

 

[Andrew]

If salvation can be so easily lost just by sinning, I'd rather go back to the Old Covenant. At least the blood of bulls and goats then could cover sins for an entire year! The OT Jews certainly had it better than us today!

Oh come on! Stop insulting the blood of Christ!

 

[eldermike]

Sin is not between God and man, since Grace. It was placed between us for a reason. To show us who we are and the contrast that is a Holy God.

RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The law was meant to reveal our condition, the contrast between a Holy God and man. It was also to show the Glory of God though His grace and the coming of the event above all events of history, The Cross.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Shall we sin? By no means is the answer. We will sin, we can sin, but it's not part of the resurrected life we began when we first believed. (BTW, we were going to believe, we had no part in that action, we boast otherwise)

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

The logic behind the resurrected life we live today, not to come, but today!

6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Sin is not between God and His Children under Grace. What the law did not do Jesus did! The law shows us who we are and who God is, it's the contrast that allows God to receive the Glory, from His Grace. It's that simple!

RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

We should live to God, we died with Christ, we live resurrected in Christ, not crucified by our flesh or sin or because of it.

RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

We can choose to live the resurrected life or a miserable life giving ourselves over to sin. But it's a choice we make. However, as much as this troubles some, our death and resurrection assures salvation. This is the very reason we should live for God and the basis for Paul's plea that we understand that Grace was not due to our goodness but our lack of it. It is a waste of time to live judging sin, we are sinners and cannot judge sin. We should live for God because He did for us doing all that was necessary to save us.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi eldermike;
Would you comment on something for me? It has to do with 1 Cor 15:31 in it Paul said that He dies daily. Is this away of saying that he asked for forgiveness everyday or do you think it means some thing else.
May God bless you.
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[eldermike]

Romanbear,
When we sin, we give in to our flesh, our Spirit lives on but our flesh is weak. So yes, we should ask for forgivness and for strength, even though we are forgiven, this is how we grow.
It is in our weakness that we are made strong. Ever wonder what that means? God's grace through His gift is most evident to us in our weakness, our need for God is made sure when we are weak. When we are weak, we seek Him and He is quick to restore us and make us stronger than before.

We died with Christ and we can choose to live resurrected, but we have to make that choice every day, just as Paul told us.

Eldermike

 

[ZiSunka]

Salvation cannot be lost, but it can be thrown away:

And when people escape from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up with sin and become its slave again, they are worse off than before. 2 Peter 2:20

If you abandon your faith in Christ to go harlot after the world and after sin, you are worse off than if you never got saved at all.

 

[Woodsy]

If you abandon your faith in Christ to go harlot after the world and after sin, you are worse off than if you never got saved at all.

And that is exactly what I did.

 

[eldermike]

My salvation brings Glory to God, through Christ and His work on the cross. I was not saved for my good, but for God's Glory.

Salvation is not an event in our future, it's done.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Lambs love;
A quote from you;
If you abandon your faith in Christ to go harlot after the world and after sin, you are worse off than if you never got saved at all.
My Reply;
The thing that bothers me most in my walk with Christ. is that I do very little walking.I'm usually being carried. Just like on this plack I use to have called footsteps in the sand. I have never met anyone that I could say for sure was so mature in Christ that they didn't sin any more.
I don't believe there is anyone who after being saved fully stopped sinning. The most troublesome of all is that after being saved I found I knew exactly that I was about to sin and I still did it. I always know that that what I'm about to do is sin before I do it. There is no sin that is done by accident or unmeaningful. If there is then I would say that this person needs to be right with God.They couldn't have a conscience.
Everyday I ask for forgiveness and everyday I feel in my heart that God must be getting tired of me because I still sin and then bother Him for forgiveness.
We are all hopeless Without Jesus Christ and try as I may I still can't be sinless for Him.
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Tribe;
I can see that you feel remorse for straying but obviously you didn't stray as far as you thought. I have no idea as to how far one has to stray before there is no return. Only God knows the answer to this question for sure. You have returned to your love in Christ and I say A- men to that.You are most likely one of the many that Christ left the 99 for to go get you and bring you back into the fold. Christ still loves you and so do all we, who are in Christ.
May God bless you;In Christ
Romanbear

 

[Woodsy]

Thank you, Romanbear! That's such a great image for me!

 

[eldermike]

We are a work in progress. God's plan is to present us without spot or blemish. The questions is, can we reach this point in this body? The answer has to be NO, or the law would have been sufficient and the cross was unnecessary. So, if we can't reach the point of perfection, how much sin is too much apart from God? One sin = death. Put this together in your mind; We are covered by the blood of Jesus or we are lost, there is no middle ground, no system to judge sin, without salvation sin brings death. Grace was necessary, the cross was the plan, God's plan. We can't help Jesus save us. We are not worthy enough, not clean enough, not trustworthy enough, Jesus did what had to be done for us. We boast otherwise. What part of me was worthy of salvation? None.

What we can do for Jesus is our reasonable service: Present yourself, a living sacrifice, acceptable to God (because of the cross). If you fail, get up and do it again, if you are saved, you are saved by God's grace, not your goodness.

How can you know your saved? You have "ears" you know conviction, conscience, you know your saved, God speaks to you through His word, His church and others. Start living the eternal life NOW and quit all the worry about how to get there; your there. You are a saint, a son/daughter, there is a stone with your name on it in heaven, it's not going away.

 

[ConservativeFWB]

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would anyone care to comment on the implications of the following verses concerning the doctrine of eternal security?

1. Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

2. Were the doctrine of eternal security founded in the bible and justifiably true, why would we be called to:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

or

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

or

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

or

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[eldermike]

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would anyone care to comment on the implications of the following verses concerning the doctrine of eternal security?

1. Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

2. Were the doctrine of eternal security founded in the bible and justifiably true, why would we be called to:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

or

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

or

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

or

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

I'll comment: There are no implications that I see.

And, welcome to the forum

 

[Zorobabel]

I've grown distant, but even at my most distant time I would take persecution from those I know by proclaiming my belief. No, I've never rejected Christ.

 

[nChrist]

What we can do for Jesus is our reasonable service: Present yourself, a living sacrifice, acceptable to God (because of the cross). If you fail, get up and do it again, if you are saved, you are saved by God's grace, not your goodness.

How can you know your saved? You have "ears" you know conviction, conscience, you know your saved, God speaks to you through His word, His church and others. Start living the eternal life NOW and quit all the worry about how to get there; your there. You are a saint, a son/daughter, there is a stone with your name on it in heaven, it's not going away.

AMEN! ElderMike,

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our LORD and SAVIOUR. HIS GRACE, the undeserved and unearned GIFT, is the beginning and end of Salvation. God spoke it, promised it, and it's DONE for all who believe and accept Jesus Christ as THE LORD of their lives. No man can add or subtract from the Precious Blood of Jesus. No power in heaven or earth can pluck us from HIS HAND. We are purchased by HIS BLOOD, delivered by HIS BLOOD, and we belong to HIM FOR ETERNITY.

In Christ.

 

[ConservativeFWB]

Site The Authority not your commentary!

"No man can add or subtract from the Precious Blood of Jesus." - What are you talking about?

"No power in heaven or earth can pluck us from HIS HAND." - Where is this found?

(If you are attempting to pervert the meaning of:

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then you may want to note the phrase "nor any other creature"!)

"we belong to HIM FOR ETERNITY" - Are you inferring that God will drag someone who previously accepted him as their Lord and Savior into Heaven some day kicking, screaming, and cursing his name?

The proper question would be: "Does a Christian have the ability to dispose of his salvation?"

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The correct answer is yes.

 

[eldermike]

Heb 6 is about productivity! Yep, even God is concerned about how we use ourselves up trying to save what He is not saving. It's not about salvation. If one will look at salvation apart from fellowship and apart from how we see our calling as His witness, you will then read scripture differently, but I think correctly.

Salvation is not an event in your future. you can live an eternal life beginning today. You may or may not have to go through deaths door but that is of no matter one way or the other, your life began before the foundation of this earth and has no end, If you are saved!

Here is a question: If keeping salvation is your job, how are you doing?

 

[Ben johnson]

"No power in heaven or earth can pluck us from HIS HAND." - Where is this found?

That's from John10:27-28: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them from My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." The word here for "SNATCH", is "HARPAZO" (the exact word used in 1Thess4:15-17 for "caught-up to meet with Jesus in the air"). It means, "seize-or-remove-FORCIBLY"; it in no way contradicts one's own ability to fall from deceitful sin (James 1:14-16, Heb3:12-14 {do not be hardened by deceitful sin to FALLING AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD}, 1Tim4:1, etc).

Conservative is quite right about Heb6:4-6; it is very much about "disposing of salvation". First, in vain do they labor who would assert that "they were VISITORS but never TRULY SAVED!" It uses the word, "metochos", which means "partaker-PARTNER". The Holy Spirit does NOT partner with the unsaved!

Heb3:1 PARTNERS in a heavenly calling
Heb3:14 PARTNERS in Christ
Heb6:4 PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit

Further, 6:4-6 clearly says "it is ADUNATOS UNABLE to restore them to repentance:

•SEEING-AS (KJV)
•BECAUSE (NIV)
•SINCE (NASV)
•WHILE! (NASV, footnote)

...they crucify Christ to themselves AGAIN (continue in sin ---Heb10:26) and hold Him to shame (regard Him with contempt). The dynamic of this passage is the REASON that they WON'T repent is THEMSELVES!

The book of Hebrews is a serious "thorn" in the sides of "OSAS" proponents:
•Watch ourselves lest we drift away; how shall we escape if we forsake so great a salvation? (ch2)
•Be careful that you not be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; we have become partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. (ch3)
•Be wary, while a promise remains of entering His rest, lest any any of YOU seem to have come short of it. (ch4)
•You should be TEACHERS but you still need MILK (ch5)
•Those who REJECT Christ will not WANT to repent; they are CONTEMPTUOUS (ch6)
•If we continue sinning willfully after having TRULY RECEIED Christ, we invalidate His sacrifice and expect only helfire; severe punishment to one who has trampled underfoot Jesus, and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED (know any way to get sanctified by the blood of the covenant APART from salvation?) And has insulted the Spirit. Therefore, do not throw away JESUS! ("confidence" is JESUS: Heb6:19, 10:19) You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the Promise.
•Let us lay aside every encumberance and sin which so easily ENTANGLES us, and run the race, fixing our eyes on Jesus the MODEL ("archegos") and CHIEF EXAMPLE ("teleiotes" ---NOT "the AUTHOR and FINISHER") of our faith. It is for discipline that you endure; but if you are WITHOUT discipline, you are illegitimate children and not sons. Make straight the paths of your feet, so that the limb which is lame may be healed, rather than worsened. See to it no one comes short of the grace of God, for Esay desired to inherit but lost. See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if they did not escape who refused the EARTHLY warning, much less will WE escape WHO TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS FROM HEAVEN! (ch12)

It's pretty clear that the entire letter of Hebrews was written by one concenred with preseverance in salvation...

If salvation can be so easily lost just by sinning, I'd rather go back to the Old Covenant. At least the blood of bulls and goats then could cover sins for an entire year! The OT Jews certainly had it better than us today!

Oh come on! Stop insulting the blood of Christ!

Hi, Andrew! What do you think Jude means, in verse 21: "Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life"? What does Jude mean?

 

[Woodsy]

Excellent post, Ben!
But I'm not certain I entirely understand (I'm still a baby in the faith ).
Do you mean that people can lose their salvation by returning to sin (effectively crucifying Christ again) but if they do, then they never really were saved? And that if one returns to sin, but then repents of it, the Holy Spirit is still guiding you and you are still saved?