Rejected Christ after Salvation?
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Psalm 37
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
You see, there is a difference between falling IN Christ and falling OUT of Christ, just as there is a difference between falling down IN an airplane and falling OUT OF an airplane! Spiritually, we are seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST, according to Ephesians 2:6, and that's where we'll stay - FOREVER!
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
You see, there is a difference between falling IN Christ and falling OUT of Christ, just as there is a difference between falling down IN an airplane and falling OUT OF an airplane! Spiritually, we are seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST, according to Ephesians 2:6, and that's where we'll stay - FOREVER!
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I've tried to walk away from God but can not. Life seemed so much easlier when I was a Buddhist but I know it's wrong and the love Jesus Christ has given me is worth the trials and tribs of today.
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endure
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jephunna
we must be holy in order to see the lord friend.
and holiness is deternmined by the actions of your body, not just your faith. rom 6.
analogies can be beautiful yet greatly incorrect to the subject they are applied to, give me more scripture.
psalms 37 is speaking of a righteouse man that departs from evil and does good v 27.
not a man that departs from good and does evil. a
there is a diffrence between running from God, something you have no right to say cannot be done, and falling.
who falls on purpose? i mean really who purposely means to fall down? if you see a man walking down the road and he slips and falls in the mud, it is clear that is was not intentionally. a fall or a failure is referring to a mistake or an accident, a blunder.
not an intended event.
there is a diffrence between a man that runs from God, and a man that makes a mistake. one is upheld by mercy, one runs from the mercy he knows is available and is not upheld.
if a man runs from God, i mean purposely runs away from Gods mercy and grace, how do you expect Gods mercy to hold him up?
and what kind of a man is willing to use the grace of God to be forgiven, and yet refuse to obey God? how utterly selfish and evil that man must be.
we must be holy in order to see the lord friend.
and holiness is deternmined by the actions of your body, not just your faith. rom 6.
analogies can be beautiful yet greatly incorrect to the subject they are applied to, give me more scripture.
psalms 37 is speaking of a righteouse man that departs from evil and does good v 27.
not a man that departs from good and does evil. a
there is a diffrence between running from God, something you have no right to say cannot be done, and falling.
who falls on purpose? i mean really who purposely means to fall down? if you see a man walking down the road and he slips and falls in the mud, it is clear that is was not intentionally. a fall or a failure is referring to a mistake or an accident, a blunder.
not an intended event.
there is a diffrence between a man that runs from God, and a man that makes a mistake. one is upheld by mercy, one runs from the mercy he knows is available and is not upheld.
if a man runs from God, i mean purposely runs away from Gods mercy and grace, how do you expect Gods mercy to hold him up?
and what kind of a man is willing to use the grace of God to be forgiven, and yet refuse to obey God? how utterly selfish and evil that man must be.
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endure
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did peter come back to Jesus?
was it peter or God that brought peter back to Jesus?
i understand what your saying, the love of God is unfathomable, and theres nothing one can ever do to exhaust it.
the bible says the mercy of God is from everlasting to everlasting, it is just as alpha and omega as God is, it will always be.
but the love of God is not equal to a person receiving salvation. in order to be saved you have to hearken unto the call of God and give your life to him, peter had to choose to come back to Jesus, or else he would not have been saved, Peter came back.
Peter came to God, like we all do when we get saved.
Peter being forgiven is not a story of a mans eternal salvation whether he followed God or not, peter is same story as the rest of us, he was in sin but came to God and was forgiven. but just as if we do not come to God we will not be saved, if you do not choose the pick the life of God back up and follow it again, you will not be saved. to continue in a sinful lifestyle is to run from God.
the love of God goes out to all peoples heathen or saint, therefor the love of God is not equal to a person be saved.
a persons yeilding to God is equal to a persons salvation, and this is subject to the person.
was it peter or God that brought peter back to Jesus?
i understand what your saying, the love of God is unfathomable, and theres nothing one can ever do to exhaust it.
the bible says the mercy of God is from everlasting to everlasting, it is just as alpha and omega as God is, it will always be.
but the love of God is not equal to a person receiving salvation. in order to be saved you have to hearken unto the call of God and give your life to him, peter had to choose to come back to Jesus, or else he would not have been saved, Peter came back.
Peter came to God, like we all do when we get saved.
Peter being forgiven is not a story of a mans eternal salvation whether he followed God or not, peter is same story as the rest of us, he was in sin but came to God and was forgiven. but just as if we do not come to God we will not be saved, if you do not choose the pick the life of God back up and follow it again, you will not be saved. to continue in a sinful lifestyle is to run from God.
the love of God goes out to all peoples heathen or saint, therefor the love of God is not equal to a person be saved.
a persons yeilding to God is equal to a persons salvation, and this is subject to the person.
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- Mar 24, 2002
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Did you hear the one about the sheep that said to his closest friend sheep: "I am not a sheep anymore" His friend says: "What are you"? He looks very seriously at His friend and says: "I am not quite sure but I am sure, that I am no longer a sheep" His friend says: "Did you tell the Shepard"? He says: "No, I am not talking to Him anymore, I am not a sheep" His friend says: "Want to get something to eat"? He says: "Sure, let's go eat some grass down by the pond" His friend says: "That's sheep food, are you sure"? He says: "I try, but no mater how much I want to be a dog, I just can't eat that food, I'll be a sheep for now, I am hungry, Let's go eat!"
Who keeps the gate?
Who makes sheep, sheep?
Who grows the grass?
Who makes us hungry?
Who keeps the gate?
Who makes sheep, sheep?
Who grows the grass?
Who makes us hungry?
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endure
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the fact that a carnal sheep cant become a dog is in no way appliable to the fact that we are only reffered to as sheep becuase God is our leader as if he were our sheperd, and we follow him as if we were little sheep, and we depend on him as if we were little sheep.
if we can BECOME sheep, cannot be not become goats?
becuase were not always sheep, but we were made sheep.
if we can change into sheep, cannot we not become dogs?
why do people answer questions with more questions?
im not getting arrogant, and thats ok that you do that becuase i do it too, its just that i get fustrated sometimes when i put an hour or so into a post trying my best to do the most for whoever reads it and no one even refers back to what i said. and they only offer me a few questions that are supposed to refute the entire post and collecting of evidences i have proposed.
i promise that i will do my best to refer back to every point you make and reason you give.
if we can BECOME sheep, cannot be not become goats?
becuase were not always sheep, but we were made sheep.
if we can change into sheep, cannot we not become dogs?
why do people answer questions with more questions?
im not getting arrogant, and thats ok that you do that becuase i do it too, its just that i get fustrated sometimes when i put an hour or so into a post trying my best to do the most for whoever reads it and no one even refers back to what i said. and they only offer me a few questions that are supposed to refute the entire post and collecting of evidences i have proposed.
i promise that i will do my best to refer back to every point you make and reason you give.
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- Mar 24, 2002
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endure,
The reason I used an object lesson in place of scripture is easy to explain.
All doctrine is from scripture, supported from scripture and explaind with scripture. I can support mine and you can refute it using the same method, scripture! But that is not the basis of this question. It's our relationship that this question is about. Who are you in the kingdom of God?
Jesus used "sheep" when talking to people that had searched scripture daily, all their lives. Why? Because they didn't know who they were.
The Torah was life,, with 5 knots on each string of a prayer cloth they were in constant touch with God, but they did not know who they were. The woman with the issue of blood knew, did she not? He told her "shalom"
Yep, God told her to go in His eternal peace and presence because after being bumped into a thousand times he was touched by one of His sheep.
you don't have to agree, and I am sorry that you are frustrated that your points were in your preception, not taken seriously. I have taught bible study classes for a long time and for that reason i choose not to trade scripture for scripture when the issue is one of relationship. We can only grow further apart if you are convinced that scripture supports your view as I am sure it supports mine.
And, btw, we don't have to agree to be Christian brothers.
The reason I used an object lesson in place of scripture is easy to explain.
All doctrine is from scripture, supported from scripture and explaind with scripture. I can support mine and you can refute it using the same method, scripture! But that is not the basis of this question. It's our relationship that this question is about. Who are you in the kingdom of God?
Jesus used "sheep" when talking to people that had searched scripture daily, all their lives. Why? Because they didn't know who they were.
The Torah was life,, with 5 knots on each string of a prayer cloth they were in constant touch with God, but they did not know who they were. The woman with the issue of blood knew, did she not? He told her "shalom"
Yep, God told her to go in His eternal peace and presence because after being bumped into a thousand times he was touched by one of His sheep.
you don't have to agree, and I am sorry that you are frustrated that your points were in your preception, not taken seriously. I have taught bible study classes for a long time and for that reason i choose not to trade scripture for scripture when the issue is one of relationship. We can only grow further apart if you are convinced that scripture supports your view as I am sure it supports mine.
And, btw, we don't have to agree to be Christian brothers.
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endure
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yes i agree that we can live together in peace and love without believing alike at all times.
well i believe that scripture is clear and thet a person who is fully aware of what it has no excuse to to believe certain ways, i dont think its excusable to have all these diffrent beliefs.
thats what i think, in no way am i trying to be harsh toward you, though im sure you realise that what i said does mean i think your wrong, but i think were both used to people thinking we are wrong.
im sorry, i really didnt get what you meant about the sheep and knowing who you are and people searching the scripture daily.
well i believe that scripture is clear and thet a person who is fully aware of what it has no excuse to to believe certain ways, i dont think its excusable to have all these diffrent beliefs.
thats what i think, in no way am i trying to be harsh toward you, though im sure you realise that what i said does mean i think your wrong, but i think were both used to people thinking we are wrong.
im sorry, i really didnt get what you meant about the sheep and knowing who you are and people searching the scripture daily.
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See I have thought about this for awhile and I've come to a conclusion. And it's based on this simple question. Did Christ die for all our sins? The answer of course is yes. So how can we commit a sin that can cause us to lose our salvation. Because if we can then obviously he didn't die for all our sins. Many say he gives us the decision. The only problem with that is if the decision goes against God then it is a sin. Because sin is going against. Since Christ died for all our sins we can never commit a sin that wasn't paid for on the cross.
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FOMWatts<><
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jayebrownlee
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I am not going to get into a debate on this, if you want to see my opinions on this matter please see this thread.
I do however believe that in the past I have lost my salvation. Thankfully now I am in full receipt of God's gift and grace.
Jay
I do however believe that in the past I have lost my salvation. Thankfully now I am in full receipt of God's gift and grace.
Jay
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endure
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new2calvin
man, im not trying to cause an aregument, but it isnt true that sins dont destroy just because theyve been died for.
yes jesus died for every sin, and provided the grace to be saved from every sin. but that does not mean you can commit them now without being held accountable. what it means is that your past of commiting them can be forgiven and now you take the power of God and stop commiting them. thats how you become clean of all sin the bible says, your past is gone, and you have a new future where you walk in holiness.
it doesnt mean that your simply covered and becuase of grace that now you can sin, but it doesnt matter.
it is said very clearly in romans 6. 15-16
v15 what then? shall we sin becuase we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
(very clearly saying that just becuase jesus died, and we not under the old law, and just because we are covered in the grace of jesus' death, we still do not have right to sin)
v16 know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(its plainly saying that even though jesus died to give grace for sin and do away with the penalty of sin, even though we have grace, if we yeild ourselves to sin, that that really means were serving sin, and it still causes death, only working righteousness in our bodies causes life)
some christians use the excuse that their is a diffrence between a christian sinning, and a sinner sinning. that a christian can sin but not really like that he did, and its somehow diffrent than if it had been an evil person who loved sin, sinning.
but jesus drew the line very clearly, and its very straight forward, there is no room for us to think about it.
john 8.34
whosoevever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.
there is no diffrence, if your commiting sins, then that makes sin your master, and that still causes death according to romans 6.
whether you were saved or not, whether you enjoyed it or not, whether you really meant to or not, commiting sin, makes you a sinner and all sinners go to hell.
that is why the bible does not just say to do the best you can.
it says to be perfect. i can quote it over and over there.
jesus said it, paul said. the bible says its the will of God for us.
i will quote one time becuase i love this scripture.
ephesians 5.15
walk circumspectly....
circumspectly means perfectly or exactly.
christians can allow no sin in their life, thats why we are commanded to walk perfectly and exactly before God.
if we never reach the place where cannot put away all sin, then we cannot be saved. becuase commiting sins, makes us sinners.
but i thank God, whom always maketh us to triumph in christ! 2 cor 2.14
becuase he didnt just die that so that we could be pardoned, but so that we could partake of his might and holiness, and overcome all sin and all the power of the enemy!
thats why paul said the new man, is created in righteousness and true holiness.
we can partake of the power of God, we can be filled the might of the Spirit of God in our inner man! ephesians 3.16
he didnt just die so that he could pardon us, he certainly did pardon us but that isnt all, it says that now we are his workmanship, and that he created us (the new man in us) in true holiness, and that he one day, will present us to God as a church without spot or wrinkle.
he saved us, and filled us with his power, so that we, like jesus, can overcome sin and walk as God walks.
becuase jesus said that if God is truely our father, then we will walk as he walks. we will do his works.
and no this doesnt mean that if one ever sins, then he was never saved, it means that he was not watching himself, and he lacked understanding and he gave place to the devil and provision to his flesh and was overcame by that lion that goes about seeking to destroy us.
if a christian does not constantly keep watch over his life, and make sure everything in is line, then satan, like he did adam, can sneak in take over the garden again.
that is why paul said to timothy to be watchful in all things.
and why paul said to walk circumspectly.
becuase we must take great heed, and great care to the important issues in our lives, and make absolutely sure that we arent giving any chance for the devil to come in, and for our flesh to be strengthened again, lest we be overcame by sin and be a castaway.
satan, can trick a christian and defeat him, and cause him to go back to sin, and he seeks to do this at all times, becuase he knows or grace is in our holiness. becuase as God said in isaiah 59, that our sins seperate us from God.
man, im not trying to cause an aregument, but it isnt true that sins dont destroy just because theyve been died for.
yes jesus died for every sin, and provided the grace to be saved from every sin. but that does not mean you can commit them now without being held accountable. what it means is that your past of commiting them can be forgiven and now you take the power of God and stop commiting them. thats how you become clean of all sin the bible says, your past is gone, and you have a new future where you walk in holiness.
it doesnt mean that your simply covered and becuase of grace that now you can sin, but it doesnt matter.
it is said very clearly in romans 6. 15-16
v15 what then? shall we sin becuase we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
(very clearly saying that just becuase jesus died, and we not under the old law, and just because we are covered in the grace of jesus' death, we still do not have right to sin)
v16 know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(its plainly saying that even though jesus died to give grace for sin and do away with the penalty of sin, even though we have grace, if we yeild ourselves to sin, that that really means were serving sin, and it still causes death, only working righteousness in our bodies causes life)
some christians use the excuse that their is a diffrence between a christian sinning, and a sinner sinning. that a christian can sin but not really like that he did, and its somehow diffrent than if it had been an evil person who loved sin, sinning.
but jesus drew the line very clearly, and its very straight forward, there is no room for us to think about it.
john 8.34
whosoevever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.
there is no diffrence, if your commiting sins, then that makes sin your master, and that still causes death according to romans 6.
whether you were saved or not, whether you enjoyed it or not, whether you really meant to or not, commiting sin, makes you a sinner and all sinners go to hell.
that is why the bible does not just say to do the best you can.
it says to be perfect. i can quote it over and over there.
jesus said it, paul said. the bible says its the will of God for us.
i will quote one time becuase i love this scripture.
ephesians 5.15
walk circumspectly....
circumspectly means perfectly or exactly.
christians can allow no sin in their life, thats why we are commanded to walk perfectly and exactly before God.
if we never reach the place where cannot put away all sin, then we cannot be saved. becuase commiting sins, makes us sinners.
but i thank God, whom always maketh us to triumph in christ! 2 cor 2.14
becuase he didnt just die that so that we could be pardoned, but so that we could partake of his might and holiness, and overcome all sin and all the power of the enemy!
thats why paul said the new man, is created in righteousness and true holiness.
we can partake of the power of God, we can be filled the might of the Spirit of God in our inner man! ephesians 3.16
he didnt just die so that he could pardon us, he certainly did pardon us but that isnt all, it says that now we are his workmanship, and that he created us (the new man in us) in true holiness, and that he one day, will present us to God as a church without spot or wrinkle.
he saved us, and filled us with his power, so that we, like jesus, can overcome sin and walk as God walks.
becuase jesus said that if God is truely our father, then we will walk as he walks. we will do his works.
and no this doesnt mean that if one ever sins, then he was never saved, it means that he was not watching himself, and he lacked understanding and he gave place to the devil and provision to his flesh and was overcame by that lion that goes about seeking to destroy us.
if a christian does not constantly keep watch over his life, and make sure everything in is line, then satan, like he did adam, can sneak in take over the garden again.
that is why paul said to timothy to be watchful in all things.
and why paul said to walk circumspectly.
becuase we must take great heed, and great care to the important issues in our lives, and make absolutely sure that we arent giving any chance for the devil to come in, and for our flesh to be strengthened again, lest we be overcame by sin and be a castaway.
satan, can trick a christian and defeat him, and cause him to go back to sin, and he seeks to do this at all times, becuase he knows or grace is in our holiness. becuase as God said in isaiah 59, that our sins seperate us from God.
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FOMWatts<><
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I agree that we WILL be held accountable, but by the GRACE of God we are already forgiven for the sins that we will account for!!! There is NO sin that Jesus' blood does not cover other than Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but of course we can still commit sins in the flesh of man, it might as well be made of sin, at least mine, but I rejoice that Christ died for EVERY sin I commit, and in God's sight I am seen as clean an righteous through MY faith that HE gave me in CHRIST JESUS.
Blessings,
FOMWatts<><
Blessings,
FOMWatts<><
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If I may, can I direct your attention to 2nd Peter 2:20. What does it say about people who apostate? =D How do you read this verse with respect to everythign else you've been taught? =D
God bless!
Your brother and In his grace,
God bless!
Your brother and In his grace,
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But what does it mean in 2st Peter 2:21, where it is written that if someone confesses Christ as savior, and they go back to they're old ways, it is better that they not confessed at all?
Your brother, and in his grace,
Your brother, and in his grace,
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endure
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see, there is truth in the fact that those who are Jesus's will follow him, but that does not mean that if one ever got saved, that he will never do anything contrary to that, because we can all look at our lives and clearly see times when we all have.
you cant say that if a man really ever chose God, then hell obey till the end, or if one ever chooses to not obey, then that proves he never really commited, because there is more at work than most people realise, the flesh and the spirit, both have a great effect on our desire and will, the flesh longs for the things of the world, the spirit longs for the things of God, and both are present with us, which ever is given liberty, will dominate our desires, at any time in our life.
what it means that those who are Jesus' will obey him, is simply that a person walking with God, full of the spirit, full of the word, strong and passionate for God, fully living in the power of God, will obey God.
but it is possible for a man to give provision to his flesh, place to the devil, to stop reading his bible, to stop praying like he should, and to be seperated from that Godly power that can keep a man holy.
a man whos rightly walking in the fullness of God wont fall away.
but it doesnt mean that once your saved, youll never fall away.
because even after salvation, you still have to keep your flesh down, renew your spirit daily, renew your mind with the word of God and stay spiritually healthy and strong.
one can step back, or fall out of the power of God and do things the bible says a true saint or man of God wont do.
does that mean they werent saved? no.
it means they went back, or allowed something of the old evil self to rise back up.
see, Christ's power is independent, but the working of it in your life is dependent on you placing yourself in the right atmosphere and giving it liberty and putting it into effect.
paul spoke of making the power of God effectual more than once.
it has to be made effectual, you have to be in the right place for it be effectual to you.
its possible for you to be in a place where it is not effectual to you.
such as galations 5. they came to a place where christ was not effectual to them, it says "...of no effect".
even though they had once been saved and had run very well...
you cant say that if a man really ever chose God, then hell obey till the end, or if one ever chooses to not obey, then that proves he never really commited, because there is more at work than most people realise, the flesh and the spirit, both have a great effect on our desire and will, the flesh longs for the things of the world, the spirit longs for the things of God, and both are present with us, which ever is given liberty, will dominate our desires, at any time in our life.
what it means that those who are Jesus' will obey him, is simply that a person walking with God, full of the spirit, full of the word, strong and passionate for God, fully living in the power of God, will obey God.
but it is possible for a man to give provision to his flesh, place to the devil, to stop reading his bible, to stop praying like he should, and to be seperated from that Godly power that can keep a man holy.
a man whos rightly walking in the fullness of God wont fall away.
but it doesnt mean that once your saved, youll never fall away.
because even after salvation, you still have to keep your flesh down, renew your spirit daily, renew your mind with the word of God and stay spiritually healthy and strong.
one can step back, or fall out of the power of God and do things the bible says a true saint or man of God wont do.
does that mean they werent saved? no.
it means they went back, or allowed something of the old evil self to rise back up.
see, Christ's power is independent, but the working of it in your life is dependent on you placing yourself in the right atmosphere and giving it liberty and putting it into effect.
paul spoke of making the power of God effectual more than once.
it has to be made effectual, you have to be in the right place for it be effectual to you.
its possible for you to be in a place where it is not effectual to you.
such as galations 5. they came to a place where christ was not effectual to them, it says "...of no effect".
even though they had once been saved and had run very well...
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