Rejected Christ after Salvation?

[endure]

i may reply to the other pages tomorrow.

 

[Andrew]

Have you ever lost your Salvation?

Well if you can lose your salvation, then it wld mean you can also be born-again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again....

well ok maybe 2 or 3 times 5 at most? yet the Bible never talks abt getting saved all over again!

 

[endure]

are you sure?

becuase Jesus told a story of a sheep straying from his flock, and Jesus going finding him and rejoicing in a greater way becuase he was found, than he would have if he hadnt left.

the basis for being born again more than once, to me, rests in the fact that the bible says sin kills, even after youve received grace, according to romans 6.15. so yes, there must be a being born again more than once, becuase sin reaps death in you if you commit it after your born again.

 

[Andrew]

I'm know so endure. There's no such thing as being born again and again and again. If you've been doing this, you ought to repent and stop mocking the blood of Jesus.

Show me solid scriptural proof that says you must be born again every time you sin. There simply arent any.

Even the blood of bulls and goats was able to cover the sins of Israel for a year. You mean to tell me the blood of Jesus washes away only until the next time you sin?

So what if you died after committing a sin ie didnt have time to be born again. You go to hell? Is your salvation on such shaky ground that depends on what you have or have not done?

Relax endure, and rest in the finished work of the Son.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

AMEN Andrew!!!

Sure God wants us to repent our sins, but once we become believers we can rest easy in the Grace of God, and pick up our crosses DAILY and follow Him.

FOMWatts<><

 

[endure]

well, i see that you have alot of confidence based on a few reasons, but you do lack scriptural evidence.

i agree that it isnt right to be born again more than once, but neither is it to sin after your born again, according to the bible, that mocks the Jesus too, and people do it everyday of their lives.

ok, you say there simply isnt any proof that one must be born again after they sin again.
i very quickly disagree.

and i do so based on the fact that sin kills, even after being born again, and i can prove this based on a number of scriptures.

hebrews 10.24,26
and let us consider one another, to provoke unto love and to good works...for if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...

(here paul was speaking to christians that he encouraged to keep going to church assemblies and provoke and help each other, becuase if if a person falls back into sin, there is more sacrifice for that sin)

romans 6.15-16
15,what then shall we sin, becuase we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.

(does sin not kill becuase we are under grace by the blood? God forbid)

16,know ye not, that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are, to whom ye obey WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness.

so (even though we have the blood of Jesus on our lives, SIN IS STILL SIN UNTO DEATH)

just becuase you have been saved and you are under the blood, does not mean that you can sin again and it not mean anything.
and some say, "well it does mean something, but it does not mean your not saved" well, its clear enough that do have to ask forgiveness for it, and if this is true, then it is clear that your salvation is jepaordy or else thered be no need for it.
and scripture is clear, that sin after salvation isnt covered, becuase when you sin after salvation there is no sacrifice to do away with that sin.

i believe this problem arises becuase people have a misunderstanding of what our righteousness is. people say it isnt a righteousness that effects our actions of is based on our future actions, but it is simply that God SEES us holy whether we sin or not.
i do not ever see this is scripture.

all i see is where paul said in 2 timothy 2.19
"LET EVERYMAN THAT NAMETH THE NAME OF CHRIST, DEPART FROM INIQUITY"

he said christians must depart from iniquity, if Christians are seen holy whether they sin or not, there would be no need of this.

and in hebrews 12 paul says
v1
...let us let lay aside every...sin...and run with patience the race that is set before us
(hes speaking to us christians)

and then he goes into the lord chastening us and how we as christians shouldnt feel condemned by his chastening, because the lord chastens those who he loves and chastens us so that we might be partakers of his holiness v5-10

and he says to not feel condemned by his chastening, but to get up and hearken to it becuase of this,
v14
"...WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD!"

if it is true that Christ sees us holy whether we sin or not, then this teaching of paul is meaningless. paul spoke to christians, and preached that they must be holy! (so aparently it refered to their actions, not state of being in christ) and he said the reason was one thing, BECAUSE IF YOUR NOT HOLY, YOU WILL NOT SEE GOD.
this totally contradicts the teaching that many christians beleive because they say that&nbsp;God sees you holy in Christ becuase of the blood, and that sinning after salvation doesnt matter directly to your salvation.
if thats true, then why did paul bother telling chrisitians to be holy becuase thats what determined them seeing God?

i said all that to prove that sin after salvation still kills it still makes you go to hell, so aparently something must be done if you sin after your saved, and this is simply ask forgiveness again and be saved again.
if sinning again makes you lose your salvation, as its clear it does from scripture, then aparently you do need to be saved again.

 

[Andrew]

All the scriptures you have posted say nothing of losing your salvation and then being born again and again and again....

Just think about what you are saying endure, you are essentially saying that all Christians are not really saved yet, that there is still a lifelong part for them to play, and not an easy one, whether it's confessions, obedience, etc, etc.

In essence, you are saying that whether a person is saved or not in the end DEPENDS on what he does with his life after "salvation". This itself is an oxymoron.

Cut out all the theological hocus pocus and it simply boils down to salvation by works.

Why wont you just let Jesus save you? Stop trying to save yourself.

 

[endure]

..... they dont?

well, im sorry, i dont know what else they mean then.

yes i do believe that your salvation depends on the way you live after salvation cus the whole book of galations is telling story of how a church had once ran well and was in the truth and was saved, yet did something that made christ of no effect unto them and they went back unto bondadge, and&nbsp;no matter what that thing was, it still proved that salvation can be lost.

 

[nChrist]

7th March 2003 at 02:52 PM endure said this in Post #82

i dont agree with that,
but even if it is true it still doesnt change that in Christs death he died for all peoples, and all men everywhere have the grace to be saved.

please, lets not start a debate on how much God knows. no i dont think he knows completely who&nbsp;will be saved and who wont, but that doesnt matter.

&nbsp;

Hello Endure,

I won't try to start a debate on this matter, but I think the truth of this subject is very important in understanding numerous precious portions of the Holy Bible that cause great confusion (i.e. predestination, etc.).

I firmly believe that Almighty God knows all in eternity past and eternity future. I believe that HE knows when a sparrow will fall, a leaf will be moved by the wind, or a grain of sand will shift. I do believe that it matters if man tries to limit or define ALMIGHTY GOD.

I am your brother in Christ, and I didn't post this for argument.

 

[nChrist]

I have been saved for almost 50 years and am now convinced more than ever that SALVATION IS ETERNAL. The Holy Spirit lives in my heart as a guide, comforter, and seal of my inheritance as a Child of God. I have sinned and failed many times in 50 years, but Jesus has forgiven me and will not forsake me. I am weak, BUT HE IS STRONG! The Blood of Jesus Christ bought me, and it is my joy that I belong to HIM. It truly is finished, as JESUS PAID IT ALL AND ALL TO HIM I OWE. I give all glory to God.

 

[nChrist]

2nd April 2003 at 02:26 AM Andrew said this in Post #124

I'm know so endure. There's no such thing as being born again and again and again. If you've been doing this, you ought to repent and stop mocking the blood of Jesus.

Show me solid scriptural proof that says you must be born again every time you sin. There simply arent any.

Even the blood of bulls and goats was able to cover the sins of Israel for a year. You mean to tell me the blood of Jesus washes away only until the next time you sin?

So what if you died after committing a sin ie didnt have time to be born again. You go to hell? Is your salvation on such shaky ground that depends on what you have or have not done?

Relax endure, and rest in the finished work of the Son.

Hello Andrew,

This is a beautiful example of a GREAT TRUTH. I give thanks that the real power is IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS. I am nothing, but HE accepted me and keeps me. My confidence, assurance, and righteousness is IN HIM.

Brother, thank you for this uplifting thought and truth. Our confidence in Jesus is Glory to God.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Everyone;
I believe a man can loose his Salvation for not forgiving someone who ask. Christ said so in Mat 18:23-35. Ive heard some claim that they turned there back on God and went there own way. it's impossible to come back to the Lord after tasting the gift.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
IMHO.This does not mean you're lost, because you sinned. Our flesh sins. It means that if you walk away from God and go your own way after being saved. Denying God and Christ,or disavow Him. You are then lost forever.Peter denied Christ but when confronted he quickly asked for forgivness. There seems to be a point at which man is Lost again and I believe it's when you are convicted of your sin and you refuse to repent.
In Christ;
Ray

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Romanbear! Good post. Please understand the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6: "For in the case of those who have been once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and have then fallen away, it is ADUNATOS-POWERELESS-UNABLE to restore them to repentance SEEING-AS (KJV), BECAUSE (NIV), SINCE (NASV--- footnote, WHILE!) they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him to open shame (contempt)." First, there is no way to contend "they were only TASTERS but not really SAVED" --- the Holy Spirit does not partner with the unsaved. ("Partners in a heavenly calling" Heb3:1, "partners in Christ" Heb3:14, "partners with the Holy Spirit" Heb6:4). Nor can this be taken as an "EMPTY WARNING" --- it truly speaks of those who PARAPIPTO-FALL-AWAY. But it doesn't say "never-come-back", it says "BECAUSE of their arrogance and contempt, they are UNABLE to be restored to repentance".

The "ANASTAUROO" (seeing-as-they-crucify-Him), is PRESENT TENSE. "WHILE" is VERY MUCH intended by the writer!

Not everyone who believes in ETERNAL SECURITY, believes the same thing; some believe that ALL men are responsible to receive Christ, while others believe that it is GOD who INSTALLS belief (in only the few He pre-selected), BEFORE they were willing. But all of them say "GOD will presevere US".

Jude contradicts this; though verse 4 says "He is ABLE to keep you from stumbling and to present you holy and blameless before God", in verse 21 it says "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God!" Keep ourselves? Would Jude have written THAT if he had beleived "OSAS"? No.

This does not mean you're lost, because you sinned. Our flesh sins. It means that if you walk away from God and go your own way after being saved. Denying God and Christ,or disavow Him. You are then lost forever.Peter denied Christ but when confronted he quickly asked for forgivness. There seems to be a point at which man is Lost again and I believe it's when you are convicted of your sin and you refuse to repent.
In Christ;

That does seem to be Scriptural. How else to understand 2Tim2:11-13? "If we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we DENY Him HE WILL DENY US; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Does this present our ability to DENY Him as "EMPTY-HYPOTHETICAL"? (warning of hyperbole?) No. Can we be FAITHLESS and DENIED, but still SAVED? No! There are those who assert, "BACKSLIDDEN but still SAVED!" What does "BACKSLIDDEN", mean? It can ONLY mean "sinning willfully". Was Paul wrong in passages like 1Cor6:9-15,or Gal5:19-21? Does he list an "EXCEPTION" that ALLOWS a sinful person to be HEAVEN-BOUND? Was Jesus wrong about "no good tree bearing bad fruit, you'll know them by their fruit"? Or "unless you REPENT you WILL perish"?

All three views of OSAS also assert "if they're not saved NOW then they were NEVER saved in the FIRST place!" Yet the answer very much colors our whole walk with God! Does HE presevere and keep US APART from anything we might have to say? Does He machinate our will FROM THE START? Or is there RESPONSIBILITY in our part of the fellowship-which-is-salvation? I hope all can see that the answer matters greatly..;

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Ben
A quote from you
)." First, there is no way to contend "they were only TASTERS but not really SAVED" --- the Holy Spirit does not partner with the unsaved. ("Partners in a heavenly calling" Heb3:1, "partners in Christ" Heb3:14, "partners with the Holy Spirit" Heb6:4). Nor can this be taken as an "EMPTY WARNING" --- it truly speaks of those who PARAPIPTO-FALL-AWAY. But it doesn't say "never-come-back", it says "BECAUSE of their arrogance and contempt, they are UNABLE to be restored to repentance".
My Reply;
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
In this verse above it clearly says that it is impossible for those that are enlightened and tasted of the gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.IMHO impossible means it can't happen and there fore never will.

No offense but I use the all these versions you've mentioned but I rely on the KJV as the final Authority.Since all these versions are accepted today they are not word for word coipies. Most are a dynamic type of Bible where the KJV is more formal and closer to word for word. I'm not trying to start another thread on Bible versions because it doesn't really matter which version you use as long as you are Christian.But as I said I rely on the KJV as the final authority. You will notice in the KJV in Heb.6:4 it says impossible or as in the greek;
ad-oo'-nat-os
(as a negative particle) unable, that is, weak (literally or figuratively); passively impossible: - could not do, impossible, impotent, not possible, weak.
The KJV was taken from text found at Antioch. Although I'm not sure but I believe that the majority of text concurs with "Impossible" found in the KJV.
A quote from your version;
2Tim2:11-13? "If we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we DENY Him HE WILL DENY US; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
My Reply;
Please notice the words " if we endure" we will only live with him if we "endure",or continue. This is a condition that is very relevant and although we have a tendency to see what we believe rather than what is really there, myself included. I find myself reading and rereading the same verses over and over again in order to get the most from it I can.
In the KJV these verses are most definetly worded differently;
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
I'm sure you know that by using different versions to quote each verse you could really have a field day trying to figure out just which is right How ever if you let one version have the last word then you'd most probably come away with truth.

One thing that really blows me away is that in the greek NT which is what the NIV was taken from along with NASB it also says impossible as Here

Heb 6:4 &#945;&#948;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#957;102 &#947;&#945;&#961;1063 &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962;3588 &#945;&#960;&#945;&#958;530 &#966;&#969;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#949;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962;5461 &#947;&#949;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#962;1089 &#964;&#949;5037 &#964;&#951;&#962;3588 &#948;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#945;&#962;1431 &#964;&#951;&#962;3588 &#949;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#965;2032 &#954;&#945;&#953;2532 &#956;&#949;&#964;&#959;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#962;3353 &#947;&#949;&#957;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962;1096 &#960;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;4151 &#945;&#947;&#953;&#959;&#965;40

This is just one of the many things that amaze me about the Bible it's like the truth is going to come out no matter what.Prase God
In Christ; Ray

 

[Woodsy]

It means that if you walk away from God and go your own way after being saved. Denying God and Christ,or disavow Him. You are then lost forever.Peter denied Christ but when confronted he quickly asked for forgivness. There seems to be a point at which man is Lost again and I believe it's when you are convicted of your sin and you refuse to repent.
In Christ;
Ray

Have I no hope, then? I was "saved," then turned my back and renounced Christ, went whoring after strange gods for 5 years. Am I to be welcomed back as a prodigal, or cast into outer darkness?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

..

 

[oneiric]

I have become stagnant in the Lord, which means that I became apathetic and lethargic towards acting the way He wants me to. I started sinning, and although I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I wanted to do what I wanted. And it was fun, I'll admit it. I know it's not right.

I still believe in Christ as Lord and all that, but I don't know if I'm saved. But, I have to keep reminding myself that works won't get me into heaven. But, I don't know. I still need to practice what I preach...it's hard.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have become stagnant in the Lord, which means that I became apathetic and lethargic towards acting the way He wants me to. I started sinning, and although I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway because I wanted to do what I wanted. And it was fun, I'll admit it. I know it's not right.

I still believe in Christ as Lord and all that, but I don't know if I'm saved. But, I have to keep reminding myself that works won't get me into heaven. But, I don't know. I still need to practice what I preach...it's hard.

I hope you do not mind my 2 cents here.

Works of the law will not get you into heaven but being God's child will and repentance when you fell from his grace is not a work and not sinning is not a work either.

Sin resides in the will and we are not helpless to sin, we have God's grace in us as Christians to over come sin. We sin because we choose to, not because we can not help it.

If you can choose to sin against him, do you think it is a work to ask for forgiveness and to do like Jesus said to do, "Go and sin no more?"

Remember, when you are sorry and have contrition for your sins and you repent from your heart, God forgives you and if you resolve to not sin against his commands again and to amend your life, that is not working for salvation. That is obeying the gospel message the Jesus Christ preached and trusting in him to wash you in his blood that he shed for you.

Even if you do fall away again, you must trust in the lord's mercy and forgiveness that he died to give to you. You can fall a hundred times and he will forgive you a hundred times even if you resoled never to sin again. He knows your heart and that you were sincere in your repentance.

There is a difference in making up your mind not to sin again and repenting with no intention on stopping sin in your life and contrition, repentance and sorrow because you know you offended the all good and all loving God who is all deserving of our love is not working for salvation, it is being a follower of Christ.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Romanbear. I asked the minister of a "Greek Orthodox Church", who is completely fluent in Koine Greek; it was he that said "impossible with things, unable with people".

Tribe, Oneiric: may I (with your permission) copy a post I just made to someone else? It seems to fit here just fine (and I am far too sleepy to start from scratch):

you say "I continue to do those things that are considered sins". May I share some Scriptures with you?
"Do not be deceived, neither (list) none of them shall inherit the Kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you; but you were washed, sanctified, justified, in the hame of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1Cor6:9-11

"For if we continue sinning willfully after having received TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries." Heb10:6

"When you pass judgment on others but DO the same things yourself, do you think you will escape the judgment of God? Do you think lightly of the richness of His kindness and forebearance and patience, not knowing that His kindness LEADS you to REPENTANCE? But YOU, because of your stubborn unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for the day ...when God will judge the secrets of men's hearts; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE; but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey truth but obey unrighteousness, HELL..." Rom2

"No one born of God practices sin; he who practices sin is of the devil. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed --- the one who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." 1Jn3

Sounds pretty clear, doesn't it OK? And yet, you're RIGHT --- as a Human Being you ARE incapable of NOT-SINNING. This is how the "ESSENCE OF SALVATION" comes into play; you see, being SAVED, is by having Christ IN YOU! "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20

Are we (the saved) now sinless? No. We are imperfect. But we are REPENTANT. We do not PRACTICE sin (repeatedly), but abide in Him, and walk in the SPIRIT (walking in the Spirit is sinless, is life; walking in the flesh is sinful, is death --- see Rom8). We do not practice sin, so we sin FAR LESS than the unsaved. We repent of our sin, He is faithful and just to FORGIVE our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn1:9

You see, salvation is NOT a "belief" --- it is fellowship with a real GOD, a PERSON: persons, actually. We are indwelt by CHRIST, and by the SPIRIT (two persons of one God; don't worry, no one fully understands it...). And the DEEDS we DO, are but what He does THROUGH us. Clear as mud?

If you are continuing to sin willfully, I highly recommend that you begin to spend time with HIM; in prayer, praise and worship, in reading the Bible. It is impossible to commune with God and not be moved towards rightesouness; He will MATURE the good work He began in you! (Philip1:6). So it's not a question of you BEATING YOURSELF into the "good child God wants", but rather it's SURRENDERING and SUBMITTING to Him; that He MAKES you the good child He wants...

The biggest fights are those that are claimed as already won. He won us on the Cross, 2000 years ago; each of your sins was nailed to that Cross, right with Him.

Fellowship with Him, repent, receive the Spirit, and claim the victory. Not really hard...

 

[Woodsy]

Thanks, Shelb5 and Ben Johnson.