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reincarnation

JCMJ friend

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I dont personally believe in reincarnation but why is there still some very few that do?and why do some think that John the baptist is eligahs reincarnation,where is the biblical evidence,as some christians have told me they think that you may be given another chance to improve your ways via reincarnation before you die to be with Jesus,is there anyone that believes in reincarnation here,if so why?
 

Jpark

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Imo, reincarnation is not possible (those in hell cannot leave (obviously) and those in heaven can only return to the earth through resurrection (Luke 16:26-31)).

But concerning John, I'm not sure.

I think what happened was that Elijah's spirit was put (by God) instead of another spirit (this would have been John?) in a physical body. So there was no John. John is a name that Elijah took.
 
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barryrob

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I dont personally believe in reincarnation but why is there still some very few that do?and why do some think that John the baptist is eligahs reincarnation,where is the biblical evidence,as some christians have told me they think that you may be given another chance to improve your ways via reincarnation before you die to be with Jesus,is there anyone that believes in reincarnation here,if so why?

It is pagan and not to be found in The Bible.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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Reincarnation was an aspect of some forms of Greek thought, particularly Platonic thought. Metempsychosis has been nearly universally and always rejected by Christian theologians, because of the fundamental importance of the body in Christian theology. That is, Christianity has always maintained belief in the resurrection of the body. Metempsychosis/reincarnation/transmigration devalues the body to the role of a material shell housing the soul; that's incompatible with Christian teaching.

As far as John the Baptist/Elijah issue, Origen in his commentary on Matthew summarily rejects reincarnation as an explanation, pointing out that Jesus says John the Baptist was in the "power" of Elijah, namely that John fulfilled the eschatological role of the Elijah. That's why John is sometimes called St. John the Forerunner. He is the Elijah who came, preparing the way for Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ccgems

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Read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, This is the whole matter explained. All you have died are still dead, awaiting for the return of Jesus Christ. PERIOD!!!!! It is Satan that uses the idea of reincarnation to doubt Christians as to their mortality after we die. Ignorm him and keep your eye on the prize of Christ Jesus.
 
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david14433

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I use to be ignorant about reincarnation as a young Christian until I grew up and found the truth. Jesus himself confirms that reincarnation is true. Reincarnation is like the missing link in Christianity. It explains a lot about Gods justice. And if you comprehend it you will be liberated and can move to a higher place spiritually.

If you want a very detailed presentation on this topic, check out.
www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html

or

www.reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html


Jesus is very clear on this subject. There are many bible versus that confirm reincarnation. I will post some of them here.

For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come. (Matt. 11:13-14)

Here Jesus clearly says that Elijah reincarnated as John the baptist.
Here Jesus reiterates and confirms it again.

And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."

Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Jesus very clearly says that John the baptist is the reincarnation of Elijah. Then the disciples affirm this at the end.

Again here is another clear statement by Jesus.

This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matt. 11:11-15)

Skeptics of reincarnation like to pull this scripture saying that Elijah will come in the power of Elijah but not Elijah himself. Or they will say that John the baptist will have the some ministry as Elijah but he is not Elijah. But if you read the verse for what is actually says, you will see it. Notice the word "spirit".

[Angel speaking]
And he [John the Baptist] will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah. (Luke 1:17)

Obviously the if you see the word spirit, you will know that it can't just be the ministry of Elijah. The actual spirit of Elijah came to this earth as John the baptist.

Then the skeptics will point out this scripture and say that John the baptist denied being Elijah when asked. [Rebuttal latter.]

They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."
Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"

John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, "Make straight the way for the Lord.""

Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

"I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie." (John 1:21-27)

So here you can see Jesus saying multiple times and an angel once that John the baptist was in fact Elijah. You also have John the baptist denying hes the reincarnation of Elijah. The question is who do you believe. Do you believe Jesus and the angel or do you believe John the baptist that actually just admitted that Jesus was greater then him.

Now some of you might say we'll that was just something that happened with John the baptist and nobody else will be reincarnated. I say that you better believe that if Elijah the prophet was reincarnated that everyone you know will be including you. The reason way is because if someone who is as righteous as Elijah has to reincarnate you better believe that ones that aren't as righteous have to also reincarnate.

Given the above statements by Jesus, the angel, John the baptist, and me. You have to come to either one of the following conclusions.

A. John the baptist is the spirit of Elijah thus the reincarnation is true. If that is true then reincarnation must belong back in the Christian theology.

B. John is not Elijah reincarnated which means that both of these statements is true (1) and (2) :
1. Jesus and the angel are lying and the bible is fallible.
2. Jesus must not be the messiah.

Based on all the logic presented so far, only one of the following conclusions are true:
I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III.
The bible is not reliable.

So as you can clearly see Jesus supports reincarnation. There is no way around it. This is one of the first steps in advancing spiritually.

There are plenty of great books on this subject. Check them out at you local library if you can't afford them. One of them is.

Reincarnation: The Missing Link In Christianity

by Elizabeth Clare Prophet


Also


Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation


That is a very technical read but it's the best scientific evidence we have for reincarnation.

Thanks for reading.

Peace!

 
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3rdHeaven

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I dont personally believe in reincarnation but why is there still some very few that do?and why do some think that John the baptist is eligahs reincarnation,where is the biblical evidence,as some christians have told me they think that you may be given another chance to improve your ways via reincarnation before you die to be with Jesus,is there anyone that believes in reincarnation here,if so why?


It all goes back to the view of the preexistence of souls which I cover in my other thread about what is eternal?

This view is as old as philosophy and was shared by Jews, pagans and Christians for a long time. It was rejected primarily because some associated preexistence of souls with reincarnation which Origen believed in eternal souls but rejected reincarnation and most Jews and Christians rejected however because of it's close association with reincarnation was either rejected or shelved even to this day despite strong scripture evidence to support preexistence of souls.

I really believe this view intertwines with the preexistence of souls.

I do not believe in reincarnation, but the jury is out on preexistence of soul.
 
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david14433

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I do not believe in reincarnation, but the jury is out on preexistence of soul.
If you don't believe in reincarnation you must believe in one of these three as I perfectly outlined in my previous post.

I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III.
The bible is not reliable.

Peace!
 
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3rdHeaven

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If you don't believe in reincarnation you must believe in one of these three as I perfectly outlined in my previous post.

I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III.
The bible is not reliable.

Peace!

Sorry, I see no scripture evidence for reincarnation but can see the evidence for preexistence of soul. Reincarnation makes no sense and is not needed at all.

Reincarnation simple moves the goal posts indefinitely, is not sound or scripturally based.

Peace to you as well :)
 
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david14433

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Sorry, I see no scripture evidence for reincarnation but can see the evidence for preexistence of soul. Reincarnation makes no sense and is not needed at all.

Reincarnation simple moves the goal posts indefinitely, is not sound or scripturally based.

Peace to you as well :)
Can you rebuttal anything I said in my original post? If not, don't say that you "see no scripture evidence for reincarnation" in this thread.

If you didn't read my post fully say so. If you don't care say about the scriptural evidence I gave, say so.

Otherwise it just seems like your ignoring the obvious.

Peace!
 
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SQLservant

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I would like to rebut your statement, if you don't mind, david14433.

A. John the baptist is the spirit of Elijah thus the reincarnation is true. If that is true then reincarnation must belong back in the Christian theology.

B. John is not Elijah reincarnated which means that both of these statements is true (1) and (2) :
1. Jesus and the angel are lying and the bible is fallible.
2. Jesus must not be the messiah.

This is a lovely illustration of what's known as a false dichotomy. Here you are taking two conclusions to be drawn from the premises supplied (in this case the one you agree with and an extreme case with which the target audience would be loath to agree) and presenting them as the only options. While this is an effective rhetorical practice, and any politician can show its effectiveness, it is not a valid form of argument, as you are leaving out at least one other conclusion to be drawn here. The one that springs to my mind is that Christ and the angels weren't speaking in the literal sense.

This, in fact, is a very serious problem for the citations you gave. Christ spoke figuratively this many times in the Gospels; the only reason to believe He is doing so here, in the face of centuries of Christian and Jewish teaching to the contrary, would be because one is either too personally attached to the idea of reincarnation, or because one believes that every word Christ said was literally true. To take the latter perspective, one would also have to believe not only in Real Presence in the Eucharist (something which I believe in most completely, but many who speak of literalism would flatly reject... or was He just talking about the bread and wine at the Last Supper, since he only said "THIS is My Body," not "this and all the bread you break yourselves in memory of Me"?), but that Christ Himself was literally made of food, since he said "My Flesh is real food and My Blood is real drink." And woe to us today, because since He said that, and after said "Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you have no part in Me!" We have no part in Him, since He has not been around in bodily form to take delicious bites out of for over 1900 years! If you believe we have part in Him anyway, you must believe Christ was a liar, right?

Of course, this line of thinking does not make sense, and reading nothing but literal meaning from Scripture not only causes orthodoxy to fall apart, but I think it does a great disservice to God, putting Him in the box limited by not only our language, but also our most immediate, most childlike, unlearned understanding. Christ used parables and figurative language to convey a deeper (and more important) meaning; He wasn't telling the evening news. He even explained this to the Apostles when they asked Him about it. I pray that you would examine not only the ones who beguiled you with this mistaken teaching, but also those who speak against it more thoroughly, and of course, the remainder of Scripture, and re-examine why you believe this novel idea to be found in the very words of Christ, but never noticed or promoted until now.
 
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david14433

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Reincarnation is the missing link in Christianity. It explains a lot if you can comprehend it.
3rdHeaven has not rebutted yet. Humm.
SQLservant you said that I gave a "false dichotomy", only problem with that is that you have not provided a meaningful alternative. In my original post I gave an extremely detailed post supporting reincarnation. What you have said is that Jesus and the angel were talking figuratively. Without giving any meaning as to what the versus I quoted might mean figuratively. How am I suppose to believe in something that I don't even understand. And you yourself can't convey or understand yourself. Can you explain what these versus mean. If not, I have no reason to consider your point of view.

Take for instance this scripture. There is no way that this could mean figuratively.

And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."

Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Note it's very important to understand this part "
but did to him whatever they wished." Jesus was talking about how they treated John the baptist and then beheaded him. Also at the end it explicitly says that the disciples understood he had spoken of John the Baptist. If you can't piece it altogether in this verse go back and see all of the versus posted, because they are all talking about the same thing.

What does this mean figuratively? You might be able to nit pick here and there as to what it might mean figuratively, but there are a lot of versus that you would have account for, and come up with a comprehensive thought behind it. If it's possible.

Peace!
 
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3rdHeaven

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Reincarnation fails by sheer math. There simply is not enough years of human life to accommodate the view of reincarnation unless you suppose not every one is included in it. This does not factor in the amount of time still required to accommodate all new souls coming in to life unless again we limit the number of souls some how. It's just not a practical plan or view to hold.

Reincarnation also fails because it does not fit in with the message of salvation and God's Word as a whole from OT to NT. None of the apostles mention it, none of the Church Fathers accepted it in fact went out of their way to reject any such ideas that were trying to sneak in to Christianity from other pagan religions. The few passages one can find that allude to reincarnation is no proof as during those times people held many beliefs and the apostles even used some pagan comparisons so they could better illustrate a point.

Bottom line is there simply is no direct teaching of reincarnation in the bible. It was rejected very strongly by our Church Fathers and through out Christianity. Are we to believe that some how God would leave out such a important "missing link"?

There have been brighter minds then us who have pondered these questions and there is no scholar that would claim there is evidence to support this view.

It fails on many fronts including the sheer numbers against it.
 
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SQLservant

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Bottom line is there simply is no direct teaching of reincarnation in the bible. It was rejected very strongly by our Church Fathers and through out Christianity. Are we to believe that some how God would leave out such a important "missing link"?

There have been brighter minds then us who have pondered these questions and there is no scholar that would claim there is evidence to support this view.
QFT.

What does it mean figuratively? That this Elijah will be the one to prepare the way for the Messiah. John the Baptist did so, and he denied being Elijah. I'm sure you will agree that he would not have lied about this, being a holy man of God, and possibly in His presence in the intervening years, where no evil can subsist. What does a figurative meaning mean here? Just that John the Baptist fulfilled the role of Elijah in the prophecy. He was not literally Elijah returned to earth--you act as if Christ never said anything that wasn't immediately apparent. The fact is, if John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, the prophecy is no less true. "In the spirit and power of Elijah" does not mean "with the soul of Elijah" or any other silly construction, or it need not mean such when there are other interpretations available that oppose 1,978 years of Christian history. If you want me to spell it out with some of the verses you supplied, I will.

[BIBLE]
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

[/BIBLE]
You said "there's no way this could be meant figuratively." My rebuttal: Yes there is.

John the Baptist had a mission much the same as Elijah's, just as you said. Christ's saying that he was Elijah does not need to mean that he was literally that prophet reincarnated, in just the same way that the prophecy about Jesus reigning from the throne of David forever does not need to mean that He came to re-establish the independent Israel as a nation-state and rule over it from Jerusalem. That was what was expected from reading the OT prophecies (just like the Jews expected Elijah to return again to earth) without the understanding that it's not always the most obvious meaning through which the prophecy was fulfilled. Elijah himself didn't need to come back, and if he had, it would have been as Elijah, not as another person. The role ascribed to Elijah in the prophecies was fulfilled by John the Baptist, not because he was the soul of Elijah returned to Earth, but because he was created especially for this purpose of preparing the way of the Lord.

[BIBLE]For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.[/BIBLE]
Does not mention reincarnation at all on the surface. John the Baptist denied being Elijah, and Christ did not "clearly say" he really was. Yes, saying "reincarnation" does make a lot of phrases and difficulties in Scripture seem to be related, but that's a very bad method. Perhaps you would also deny the Trinity because "I and the Father are one."

Does reincarnation even make sense of things that didn't make sense already? Not according to what I've shown there (apply it yourself to the other mentions of John the Baptist that I didn't discuss, because it'll be the same thing I say for those). Indeed, what about the problems it raises for these verses?

[BIBLE]
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.[/BIBLE] Heb. 9:27-28

[BIBLE]But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.[/BIBLE] 2 Sam. 12:23

[BIBLE]As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.[/BIBLE] Job 7:9-10

[BIBLE]He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.[/BIBLE] Ps. 78:39

There are more where that came from as well, such as Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 23:39-43. As you asked for for me, a comprehensive thought behind it is necessary, "if it's possible."

If you want something comprehensive, here it is: None of the verses supplied by you or any who believe in Christian reincarnation necessarily indicate that idea without presupposing that not only does Scripture fit neatly into the first level of comprehension (in other words, that God speaks on the level of a very young child), but also that everyone who has gone before, the consensus of the whole Church for nearly two millennia, has failed to spot this "truth."

Are you willing to say, like Joseph Smith, that everyone before you (or the self-proclaimed prophet that wrote the book you linked) was wrong, and that only this circle of those who follow along know the "real truth?"

====================

I suppose my appealing to the Fathers means little without support:

Irenaeus (lived c.130-200. Studied under Polycarp, who was a student of the Apostle John), Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 33. I suggest strongly that you read the whole thing, but here are some highlights.
We may subvert their doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact, that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence.
With reference to these objections, Plato, that ancient Athenian, who also was the first to introduce this opinion, when he could not set them aside, invented the [notion of] a cup of oblivion, imagining that in this way he would escape this sort of difficulty. He attempted no kind of proof [of his supposition], but simply replied dogmatically [to the objection in question], that when souls enter into this life, they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance [into the world], before they effect an entrance into the bodies [assigned them].
For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact (since your soul is now in the body), that, before it entered into the body, it was made to drink by the demon a drug which caused oblivion?
If, therefore, the soul remembers nothing of what took place in a former state of existence, but has a perception of those things which are here, it follows that she never existed in other bodies, nor did things of which she has no knowledge, nor [once] knew things which she cannot [now mentally] contemplate.

Gregory of Nyssa (c.335-394, brother of Basil the Great), On the Making of Man, ch. 28:
Those who assert that the state of souls is prior to their life in the flesh, do not seem to me to be clear from the fabulous doctrines of the heathen which they hold on the subject of successive incorporation: for if one should search carefully, he will find that their doctrine is of necessity brought down to this. They tell us that one of their sages said that he, being one and the same person, was born a man, and afterwards assumed the form of a woman, and flew about with the birds, and grew as a bush, and obtained the life of an aquatic creature; - and he who said these things of himself did not, so far as I can judge, go far from the truth: for such doctrines as this of saying that one soul passed through so many changes are really fitting for the chatter of frogs or jackdaws, or the stupidity of fishes, or the insensibility of trees.

Even Origen, considered the champion for "Christian" reincarnation, says this about the very verses you quote:
...t does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures.
(Commentary on Matthew, Book XIII, 1)

And on the words of the angel:
For, observe, he did not say in the ‘soul’ of Elijah, in which case the doctrine of transmigration might have some ground, but ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah.’
(same commentary)
 
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BrotherBob

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:wave: The concept of reincarnation is completely without foundation in the Bible, which clearly tells us that we die once and then face judgement (Hebrews 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), not "you will have another chance to live a life on this earth." Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment.

Matthew 17:10-12 links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated but that he would have fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming if the people had believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said, "No, I am not" (John 1:21).

Passages such as 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. Which body or carnation do you get? If you get a second chance at life, then why worry about being saved when you will get numerous chances to believe and which carnation that does not believe go to eternal punishment? Good luck with your carnations.:cool:
 
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