reincarnation

[david14433]

I think most of our questions can be answered with this. What does soul mean and what does spirit mean. There are 4 different words for the original meaning of soul and spirit in the bible. Nephesh is Hebrew for soul, ruach is Hebrew for spirit, and pneuma is Greek for spirit and Psuche is greek for soul.

nephesh mean[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]s soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

ruach means spirit, wind, or divine breath. Ruach means the immaterial part of the self. That is consciousness or awareness.

Pneuma (πνεύμ&#945 is an ancient Greek word for "breath or wind, when translated the equivalent would be spirit. That is consciousness or awareness.

Psuche is a Greek word for soul

This biblical website explains it good here. Replace [dot] with a period.
www [dot] gci [dot] org/spiritual/soulspirit

OK now you can see the differences. Even though we have 4 words there are only two meanings. One is the self with all it's baggage like karma, persona, all of the attachments. This is the soul. Then the other is the more pure self. That is the true self. That true self is awareness or consciousness. Through meditation you can focus on your spirit or [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]pneuma and find and cultivate spirit or conscious awareness. That is why through meditation you can remember your past lives.[/FONT]

You can see the difference here clearly.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living "soul" ("psuche"); the last Adam was made a quickening 'spirit' (pneuma).[/FONT]

So in Luke 1:17 what is it?

Luke 1:17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit [pneuma] and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

This clearly shows that spirit means the inner self, the breath not the persona and all the labels and functions that we start getting at birth.

This is why it's so hard to remember our past lives because we mainly just bring our consciousness or awareness into this world through our nervous system. It's only the internal part that goes from life to life. The persona or soul with all it's labels and functions does not go from life to life. Only in very rare cases can someone remember a past life. But meditation can increase those chances.

There is a very scientific, technical book that talks about 20 cases of people that could remember a past life. It was looked into, and proven that indeed, the life they remembered was verified. The book is called.

Twenty cases suggestive of reincarnation

In the book the author does not even admit to reincarnation but says he does not know how these people could have known this about other people from the past. In his next book the author says the in all probability that they were reincarnated as there was no other possible explanation.

I hope I have at least got you thinking.

Peace!

 

[david14433]

Were is the Father. This is a mysterious question to Christians. The Father is who gave birth to you spiritually. The father is your original source. How do you go to your original source? How do you find your original source? Before the big bang you were in the father and the father was in you. Then you left the father perhaps in the big bang. And have been evolving for many, many years. So how do you go back to the father. Many think they are close to the father. Is that really the case. If you were close the the father you would feel the kingdom of heaven. The only way to find the father and kingdom of haven within is through meditation.

What is meditation. What do you think meditation is? Is it devil worship like I used to believe as a kid. Is it talking to demons or calling on spirits to help you? Is it some external thing that your fantasies come true.

Many Christians think meditation is some external thing. Some even think that when you meditate you pray to Satan. This could be further from the truth. There are two main kinds of meditation internal and external meditation. Real meditation though is where all external things are transcended and the inner man is freed. In real meditation the mind becomes extremely calm and tranquil and even the body slows down. Even to the point of no thought no breath. At this stage your pretty advanced. This takes many hours of meditation. There have been over 600 studies using meditation. There have been tremendous benefits for using meditation is schools and in prisons. If you want references for that I will find them. Nothing else works better than meditation. Why do Christians seem to have something against meditation? Probably because they don't understand it. They don't understand that in meditation you don't need a philosophy or religion or some belief. All they need to do is practice it and they can find their inner self and when you find your inner self you start getting all these great qualities like creativity, comprehension, love, peace, tranquility. I must admit some are more naturals at it than others. But all can benefit from meditation. And if you can put in the time you can find heaven within side yourself. Through meditation you find you inner self.

The Gospel of Thomas has to be the best Gnostic Gospel. Look what Jesus says.

(3) But the Kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then shall you be known, and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if ye do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

Do you truly know yourself? Do you know your inner being. That is free from all external input. I have not fully discovered it but I practice meditation and I know will find my inner self and I will eventually find the kingdom of heaven within myself. If you are not free from all suffering then you will eventually have to come back here to learn some lessons. It may take an extremely long time but you will come back to the earth plane.

Christians will point out nobody believes this stuff in the Christian and Jewish religions. Some of the Jews did in what is known as the Kabbalah. The Hasidic Jews believed in meditation. The Essenes and Gnositics believed in mediation. Most Christians don't even know about these groups. It's all a matter of interpretation and what texts are your source.

Peace.

 

[david14433]

Part 1
SQLservant
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What does it mean figuratively? That this Elijah will be the one to prepare the way for the Messiah.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]According to you how did Elijah prepare the way for Christ more than king David, Abraham, Ezekiel, Isaiah? Why even mention it if there was not something more here.[/FONT]

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]John the Baptist did so, and he denied being Elijah. I'm sure you will agree that he would not have lied about this, being a holy man of God

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I'm sure John the baptist didn't know he was Elijah as most of us don't remember our past incarnations. Some do. But that's rare. I don't believe he lied, I think he was ignorant of the fact. Jesus and the angel knew better though.[/FONT]

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Just that John the Baptist fulfilled the role of Elijah in the prophecy.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]What prophesy are you speaking of?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Are you taking about these prophesies.
[/FONT] Malachi 3:1 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Who is that messenger look and see.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]MALACHI 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. [/FONT]6[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] He will restore the hearts of the fathers to [/FONT]their[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.” [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In fact the Jews to this day in a ceremony leave out a glass of wine for Elijah hoping he will come. But if they believed Jesus they would know that Elijah already came. As in[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]

[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 17:10-13[/FONT]
10[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” [They were waiting for Elijah to come because of the[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Malachi prophesies.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] 11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] What is the connect between Elijah and John the baptist here other than reincarnation?
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He was not literally Elijah returned to earth--you act as if Christ never said anything that wasn't immediately apparent.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The same is true if reincarnation was true as the disciples didn't know John the baptist had the spirit of Elijah.[/FONT]


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The fact is, if John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, the prophecy is no less true. "In the spirit and power of Elijah" does not mean "with the soul of Elijah"

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I'm not sure what you mean by literal so let me add this.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I am not saying that Elijah as in the literal physical Elijah but the literal spirit or consciousness, that came from Elijah and then came to earth again as John the baptist. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is the kind of reincarnation I believe in and the kind we are debating. Definition from WIKI of reincarnation.[/FONT] Reincarnation[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] best describes the concept where the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, is believed to return to live in a new human body. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]By the way I don't believe that we can reincarnate as an animal or plant. Because our spirit or soul has already evolved past that stage.[/FONT]

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]John the Baptist had a mission much the same as Elijah's

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If the only connection between John the baptist and Elijah is that they are on a mission from God. It would make no sense that Jesus should point out such a thing. That would be the obvious. That would be like Jesus saying Isiah had a mission from God just like John the baptist. What is the real connection? Malachi said he was going to send Elijah. Where is Elijah?[/FONT]

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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]just as you said. Christ's saying that he was Elijah does not need to mean that he was literally that prophet reincarnated

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]No let me clarify that.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I don't believe the literal body or a body of Elijah came.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I do mean that the spirit, soul, or consciousness entered into the womb and body of John the baptist and became John the baptist.[/FONT]

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in just the same way that the prophecy about Jesus reigning from the throne of David forever does not need to mean that He came to re-establish the independent Israel as a nation-state and rule over it from Jerusalem. That was what was expected from reading the OT prophecies (just like the Jews expected Elijah to return again to earth) without the understanding that it's not always the most obvious meaning through which the prophecy was fulfilled. Elijah himself didn't need to come back, and if he had, it would have been as Elijah, not as another person. The role ascribed to Elijah in the prophecies was fulfilled by John the Baptist, not because he was the soul of Elijah returned to Earth, but because he was created especially for this purpose of preparing the way of the Lord.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I think I found the versus your talking about but it's a strech to say "re-establish the independent Israel as a nation-state and rule over it from Jerusalem."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I could believe that Jesus would set up his throne in Zion, even forever when he returns. Jesus may not always be here on this earth but when he does come here.[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"For the LORD hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation....There will I make the HORN OF DAVID to bud: I have ordained a lamp for Mine anointed (Psalm 132:13,17). [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Also if that is the case Jesus and the angel would have no reason to say that Elijah was John the baptist. They would have just said nothing. What is the connection between Elijah and John the baptist then SQLservant?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Then what do the Malachi prophesies mean then too?[/FONT]


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[[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]BIBLE]For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][/bible][/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Does not mention reincarnation at all on the surface. John the Baptist denied being Elijah, and Christ did not "clearly say" he really was. Yes, saying "reincarnation" does make a lot of phrases and difficulties in Scripture seem to be related, but that's a very bad method. Perhaps you would also deny the Trinity because "I and the Father are one."

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Jesus spoke the language Aramaic.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]After a good Internet search. I can't find a word for reincarnation. So in all likely hood they didn't even have that word in Aramaic.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Also Jesus was referring to the prophesies which didn't mention don't say reincarnation.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I acknowledge the trinity. At the same I know we are all Gods in training.[/FONT]

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Does reincarnation even make sense of things that didn't make sense already? Not according to what I've shown there (apply it yourself to the other mentions of John the Baptist that I didn't discuss, because it'll be the same thing I say for those). Indeed, what about the problems it raises for these verses?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [bible][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.[/bible] Heb. 9:27-28

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Christians love to quote this verse in opposition to reincarnation. But if you look at NDE's, many people are judged after death but not in the way Christians portray judgment. According to NDEs you are your own judge. [More on that later.] Please let me explain further. After going through the we'll known [/FONT]tunnel of light[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] and making it to the other side. Usually a being of light, angel or even Jesus himself is there. They find themselves getting the well known [/FONT]life review[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]. This is very common in NDE's. They view there life in a panoramic view and not only from there own view but from the view of the people they hurt or the people they had fun with. They can not only fully feel what the other people had felt, they can view what happened from many different angles. They can see there life from every possible view. So they are there own judge as you can see. You are also your own judge because you reap what you sow also known as Karma. Just as Jesus says. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Matthew 7:2[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] So how dies Jesus or God Judge us. Read on.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Luke 19:22[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] It would take many incarnations to reach such a place. If you reach that point according to Jesus in Pistis Sophia "Such men will straightway be taken into the outer darkness and not be cast back anew into the sphere, but they shall perish, be destroyed in the outer darkness in a region where there is neither pity nor light, but howling and grinding of teeth. And all the souls which shall be brought into the outer darkness, will not be cast back anew, but will be destroyed and dissolved." [/FONT]

To be continued.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Peace! [/FONT]

 

[david14433]

Part 2

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [bible]But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.[/bible] 2 Sam. 12:23[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How does that disprove reincarnation?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [bible]As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; he returns no more to his house, nor does his place know him anymore.[/bible] Job 7:9-10[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]They don't say eternally and even if they used the closest Hebrew word for eternal which is [/FONT]olam. It still would not mean eternal.

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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [bible]He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.[/bible] Ps. 78:39[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Let me put that passage in proper context.[/FONT]

38[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Yet he was merciful; [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] he forgave their iniquities [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] and did not destroy them. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Time after time he restrained his anger [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] and did not stir up his full wrath. [/FONT]
39[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] He remembered that they were but flesh, [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] a passing breeze that does not return. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is talking about their lifetime and knowing that it was just one lifetime and they would not get that lifetime again.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] There are more where that came from as well, such as Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 23:39-43. As you asked for for me, a comprehensive thought behind it is necessary, "if it's possible."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]For Matthew 25:31-46 check here. Note replace [dot] with a period.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]christianforums [dot] com/t7523876-4/#post59379132[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]For Luke 23:39-43[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] It's possible that the repenting one didn't have as much Karma as the other guy and was truly sorry for what he had done. Then he would meet Jesus to paradise but would have to come back. Just like Betty J. Eadie who was a Mormon and in her extensive NDE where she went to paradise and came back and was told that we do reincarnate by some advanced beings.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If you want something comprehensive, here it is: None of the verses supplied by you or any who believe in Christian reincarnation necessarily indicate that idea without presupposing that not only does Scripture fit neatly into the first level of comprehension (in other words, that God speaks on the level of a very young child), but also that everyone who has gone before, the consensus of the whole Church for nearly two millennia, has failed to spot this "truth."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]That is mainly because after the Roman Catholic Church murdered the opposition for a long time. They had an iron chain on religion. For a long, long time people would have been the odd one the weird one and even persecuted for believing such things. Besides that it was not until the mid 1900's a lot of that changed. For the first time we had other texts of what Jesus said. Not just the 4 gospels in the bible. The idea of reincarnation would have seemed totally foreign until the 19th century. Through understanding other religions and the Gnostic texts found. Which are nag hammadi library, dead sea scrolls, and the [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]discovery by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Are you willing to say, like Joseph Smith, that everyone before you (or the self-proclaimed prophet that wrote the book you linked) was wrong, and that only this circle of those who follow along know the "real truth?"[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Were is that link?[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Can you please explain the question better. I don't know what you are talking about.[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] ====================[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Irenaeus (lived c.130-200. Studied under Polycarp, who was a student of the Apostle John), Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 33. I suggest strongly that you read the whole thing, but here are some highlights.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] "We may subvert their doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact, that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If, therefore, the soul remembers nothing of what took place in a former state of existence, but has a perception of those things which are here, it follows that she never existed in other bodies, nor did things of which she has no knowledge, nor [once] knew things which she cannot [now mentally] contemplate.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]OK this is partially true that we don't remember our past lives. But some do. In fact you can increase your chances of remembering a past life by meditating. The Buddha after many hours of meditation was able to recall his past lives. This is common. In case you don't know what meditation is. It helps us find your true self that is inside of all of us. It leads the way to finding who you truly are in Christ and the father. The real spiritual path beings when you wake up and your consciousness greatly increases and your inner resources are found including love, tranquility, peace and all good qualities. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I am not going to answer to all the other quotes because I think they were based on the premises that you don't remember your past lives. And I already addressed that. Also he is talking about reincarnation back into animals tress and fish. Which I don't believe in because the body also evolves.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Even Origen, considered the champion for "Christian" reincarnation, says this [/FONT]about the very verses you quote[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]:[/FONT]
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...t does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures.
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This smacks of bias. He calls it dogma. I have no idea what books he was informed of. He does not logically explain his position. I want a logical answer to the Elijah reincarnation idea. I think this is not a matter of belief but of understanding and comprehending the grammar and translation of the text. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]For, observe, he did not say in the ‘soul’ of Elijah, in which case the doctrine of transmigration might have some ground, but ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah.’ [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How do you define soul and spirit?[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]OK so it seems to me that the confusion is between the original meaning of soul and spirit. These days they are used interchangeably many times. Soul spirit, spirit soul. But in the spiritual community and the bible soul is more thought of as being external part of the self. But the spirit is more known as the inner part of the self. If you look at my above at post 41 you will see that the spirit is the inner part of man. The spirit is more related to conscious awareness while soul is more related to the functions and attachments of conscious awareness and the body.[/FONT] The spirit is in charge of the soul.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So it would seem to me that in fact it's the opposite of you above quote. That is the word spirit should be evidence for reincarnation. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Do your homework if you want to know the truth as I did.[/FONT]

You going to have to research this yourself to find the truth as I did.

Peace!

 

[david14433]

Why has nobody answered to my rebuttals? Do anyone have any rebuttals?

Peace!

 

[david14433]

Where is the logic here I thought you would at least respond to what I had to say. Even excluding all the the Gnostic stuff and NDE's I would still debate you all on just the merits of the bible.

Peace!

 

[david14433]

For much more on reincarnation and more, see my earlier posts, that by the way no one has rebutted.

Replace [dot] with a period.
christianforums [dot] com/t7523876-2/

Peace!