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reincarnation
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BrotherBob
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maybe you'll come back as a carnation.
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BrotherBob
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Agree with every thing but just want to clarify one point about Origen who I've read about. He only believed in the preexistence of souls, I understand a lot of reincarnation people like to credit him for support, but they leave out that he strongly opposed reincarnation and refuted it in public and writings. They simply do not understand what his position on preexistence of soul was, it was more on the line of Plato/Aristotle. He never believed or taught reincarnation and in fact refuted it. he did teach the soul came first.
One other thing that Origen gets credit for that he was not responsible for and did not teach was Universal Salvation. it is written that Origen had over 6000 writings at one time! He covered almost every thing imaginable. He and Augustine are considered the two most influential of their time! Universalists often try to use Origen to support Universal Salvation pointing to some of his writing.
Origen loved to think out loud a lot! He wondered if it was possible for a All Loving God to some how find a way for every one to be eventually saved, even Lucifer. Please note, this was a question, not a teaching! He never taught universal salvation yet is credited for it just same for asking/thinking about it.
He most definitely was against reincarnation! And his view of preexistence souls was based on his heavy influence with Plato and Aristotle who were the ones to point to back then. The Church only had a issue with his preexistence of soul teaching which he did actually teach.
(sorry as you can tell I sort of respect Origen and felt the need to set the record straight on his views)
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
I might reply tomarrow. In the meantime let me ask one question. If you give your life to Jesus become a born again Christian. When are your sins washed away?
Peace!
Peace!
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It's more then giving your life to Jesus, it's really not about works, another reason reincarnation fails. If it was about works, reincarnation would at least provide a useful meaning.
I suggest you read the Gospels and Acts at the very least. With a fresh approach.
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
I have read them many times. We know very little about Jesus considering all that he did. We only have 4 gospels that repeat many of the same stories in different ways. Jesus knew about reincarnation. Most people don't know that the Pharisees also believed in reincarnation. You never see Jesus and the Pharisees debate that one. Anyway I think it's a shame we don't have much more written about Jesus and what he did and taught. It's important to understand that Jesus taught in parables so sometime after Jesus' death we had many different ways of interpreting what he meant. That is the way it was. Many of the early church believed in reincarnation. So we had many beliefs on the meaning of Jesus' teaching. There were many more books back then too. Then the Roman Catholic Church comes along and said this is what Jesus meant and taught. The fact is Jesus taught in parables. How can they do that? Then the Roman Catholic Church killed anyone that opposed them about reincarnation and the preexistence of the soul. And burned all the books that didn't fit there belief even books of Jesus talking. Like the gospel of Thomas. I realize some of these books are questionable but some like the gospel of Thomas help explain a lot. I tell you what what the nag hammadi library, dead sea scrolls, and the discovery by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely he was able to discover Essene documents in the secret archives of the Vatican. Finding these things should make any Christian start seeking some meaning to this. In the meantime do your homework like I did, and research those 3 sources.
Edit: I forgot to add research the Essences. As they are mentioned by in the dead sea scrolls and Edmond Bordeaux Szekely books.
Also to note Edmond Bordeaux Szekely found and stole those books at the Vatican in 1923, way before nag hammadi library, dead sea scrolls were found.
I'm still working my other rebuttals.
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
Just like I have done my homework, you are going to have to do your homework to comprehend reincarnation.
To comprehend reincarnation you have to put together the whole puzzle and then you understand the nature of reality.
If you are to comprehend reincarnation your going to have to research a lot and understand a couple of things.
I want you'll to seriously consider reincarnation. This is the reason why. OK we are born into this world. We could have been born into another religion, another country, another culture. And so here we are born into a sea of beliefs. A sea of many beliefs about what is reality, what is truth. Most people stay within what they know or grew up with or are most comfortable with. Now I believe that some of these beliefs about reality are black, white, gray, and even blue green yellow and all the other colors. The beliefs are wide and varying. Now, to what are the higher truths of reality, the only way for you to find them is to openly accept as possibly true. All of the beliefs as some kind of truth that will lead you to a universal understanding. If you don't do this. You automatically block yourself in. If Christians don't contemplate for themselves and research different beliefs themselves they have no way of knowing for certain that they found the greater universal truths. How can you know for certain that the beliefs you are most comfortable or grew up with are universal truths. I view universal truth and reality like a box. Even though it's multifaceted, and has 6 sides. No one from one point can see the whole box. It could be very easy for someone to get a view of the box from one perspective and especially if that one view says it's the only view of the box. Then just ignore all the other views of the box. So you have you start looking at other sides of the box. I will talk about some of the other sides of the box of reality in this post. For this reason one must consistently be seeking, considering, contemplating what they believe. It would be narrow minded to find one belief that seemingly discredits many other beliefs and then become stuck. Unable to grow.
Another thing to understand is that most people don't lie. Most people don't make things up. Most of the suffering in the world is caused by not fully understanding other people and what reality is. So this brings me to my next topic.
NDE's AKA Near Death Experiences. What do people that have been dead for 5, 10 minutes even longer have to say about being on the other side and coming back after their heart stopped. You would think that people that have died and came back would have something to say, and some do. Many, many more people these days are having NDE's because of medical advances in saving peoples lives.
If you don't believe in NDE's I suggest you check out a woman by the name Pam Reynolds. She had an brain aneurysm and so the doctors tried a new kind of procedure. During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead. During that time she had an NDE AKA an OBE. The actual surgical time line suggests that her brain stem activity was fully flatlined for a period of five to six minutes. If she can have an NDE in all likely hood many others also had a real experience.
I want you to unbiasedly look into the validity of NDE's so check out this.
BBC: PAM SEES GOD. NDE Pam Reynolds. Amazing! Full version! Note replace [dot] with a period.
youtu [dot] be/WNbdUEqDB-k
Scientific Evidence for Survival Of consciousness after death
near-death.com/evidence [dot] html
Also check out this. Note replace dot with a period.
near-death.com/reincarnation [dot] html
Do your homework on that so that you can have a better understanding of reality.
Peace!
To comprehend reincarnation you have to put together the whole puzzle and then you understand the nature of reality.
If you are to comprehend reincarnation your going to have to research a lot and understand a couple of things.
I want you'll to seriously consider reincarnation. This is the reason why. OK we are born into this world. We could have been born into another religion, another country, another culture. And so here we are born into a sea of beliefs. A sea of many beliefs about what is reality, what is truth. Most people stay within what they know or grew up with or are most comfortable with. Now I believe that some of these beliefs about reality are black, white, gray, and even blue green yellow and all the other colors. The beliefs are wide and varying. Now, to what are the higher truths of reality, the only way for you to find them is to openly accept as possibly true. All of the beliefs as some kind of truth that will lead you to a universal understanding. If you don't do this. You automatically block yourself in. If Christians don't contemplate for themselves and research different beliefs themselves they have no way of knowing for certain that they found the greater universal truths. How can you know for certain that the beliefs you are most comfortable or grew up with are universal truths. I view universal truth and reality like a box. Even though it's multifaceted, and has 6 sides. No one from one point can see the whole box. It could be very easy for someone to get a view of the box from one perspective and especially if that one view says it's the only view of the box. Then just ignore all the other views of the box. So you have you start looking at other sides of the box. I will talk about some of the other sides of the box of reality in this post. For this reason one must consistently be seeking, considering, contemplating what they believe. It would be narrow minded to find one belief that seemingly discredits many other beliefs and then become stuck. Unable to grow.
Another thing to understand is that most people don't lie. Most people don't make things up. Most of the suffering in the world is caused by not fully understanding other people and what reality is. So this brings me to my next topic.
NDE's AKA Near Death Experiences. What do people that have been dead for 5, 10 minutes even longer have to say about being on the other side and coming back after their heart stopped. You would think that people that have died and came back would have something to say, and some do. Many, many more people these days are having NDE's because of medical advances in saving peoples lives.
If you don't believe in NDE's I suggest you check out a woman by the name Pam Reynolds. She had an brain aneurysm and so the doctors tried a new kind of procedure. During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead. During that time she had an NDE AKA an OBE. The actual surgical time line suggests that her brain stem activity was fully flatlined for a period of five to six minutes. If she can have an NDE in all likely hood many others also had a real experience.
I want you to unbiasedly look into the validity of NDE's so check out this.
BBC: PAM SEES GOD. NDE Pam Reynolds. Amazing! Full version! Note replace [dot] with a period.
youtu [dot] be/WNbdUEqDB-k
Scientific Evidence for Survival Of consciousness after death
near-death.com/evidence [dot] html
Also check out this. Note replace dot with a period.
near-death.com/reincarnation [dot] html
Do your homework on that so that you can have a better understanding of reality.
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
To BrotherBob more rebuttals later.
Christians love to quote this verse in opposition to reincarnation. But if you look at NDE's, many people are judged after death but not in the way Christians portray judgment. According to NDEs you are your own judge. [More on that later.] Please let me explain further. After going through the we'll known tunnel of light and making it to the other side. They find themselves getting the well known life review. This is very common in NDE's. They view there life in a panoramic view and not only from there own view but from the view of the people they hurt or the people they had fun with. They can not only fully feel what the other people had felt, they can view what happened from many different angles. They can see there life from every possible view. So they are there own judge as you can see. You are also your own judge because you reap what you sow also known as Karma. Just as Jesus says.
Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
So how dies Jesus or God Judge us. Read on.
Luke 19:22
His master replied, I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?
It would take many incarnations to reach such a place. If you reach that point according to Jesus in Pistis Sophia "Such men will straightway be taken into the outer darkness and not be cast back anew into the sphere, but they shall perish, be destroyed in the outer darkness in a region where there is neither pity nor light, but howling and grinding of teeth. And all the souls which shall be brought into the outer darkness, will not be cast back anew, but will be destroyed and dissolved."
I don't believe people come back as plants and animals because there soul body has already evolved past that. Also I think the people in the OT were not really informed very we'll on the nature of reality. But Jesus knew and said Elijah came back as John. Jesus also says that some of the Pharisees killed Zechariah from the OT.. The kabbalist knew too. They were Jewish. I suggest you look into The Holy Kabbalah which has the "hidden" or "secret" teaching of Judaism
"33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation."
That bad karma did come on that generation. After Jesus left like I already said they went to war had famine and the temple was burned.
It's possible that he didn't have as much Karma as the other guy and was truly sorry for what he had done. Then he would go with Jesus to paradise but would have to come back. Just like Betty J. Eadie who was a Mormon and in her extensive NDE where she went to paradise and came back and was told that we do reincarnate by some advanced beings.
If a child heard the statement. " fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming" the child would ask then. Where is Elijah? That is like saying Elijah is coming but he is not coming. Even a child can understand that. You all have blinders on. And that is OK, I am trying to show you this since I use to be one of you and had your same belief system.
Read what Kevin Willamas has to say about it and then let me know what you think. He talks about Thessalonians 4:13 here. Replace the [dot] with a period.
near-death [dot] com/experiences/origen03 [dot] html
Peace!
Christians love to quote this verse in opposition to reincarnation. But if you look at NDE's, many people are judged after death but not in the way Christians portray judgment. According to NDEs you are your own judge. [More on that later.] Please let me explain further. After going through the we'll known tunnel of light and making it to the other side. They find themselves getting the well known life review. This is very common in NDE's. They view there life in a panoramic view and not only from there own view but from the view of the people they hurt or the people they had fun with. They can not only fully feel what the other people had felt, they can view what happened from many different angles. They can see there life from every possible view. So they are there own judge as you can see. You are also your own judge because you reap what you sow also known as Karma. Just as Jesus says.
Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
So how dies Jesus or God Judge us. Read on.
Luke 19:22
His master replied, I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?
It would take many incarnations to reach such a place. If you reach that point according to Jesus in Pistis Sophia "Such men will straightway be taken into the outer darkness and not be cast back anew into the sphere, but they shall perish, be destroyed in the outer darkness in a region where there is neither pity nor light, but howling and grinding of teeth. And all the souls which shall be brought into the outer darkness, will not be cast back anew, but will be destroyed and dissolved."
I don't believe people come back as plants and animals because there soul body has already evolved past that. Also I think the people in the OT were not really informed very we'll on the nature of reality. But Jesus knew and said Elijah came back as John. Jesus also says that some of the Pharisees killed Zechariah from the OT.. The kabbalist knew too. They were Jewish. I suggest you look into The Holy Kabbalah which has the "hidden" or "secret" teaching of Judaism
"33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation."
That bad karma did come on that generation. After Jesus left like I already said they went to war had famine and the temple was burned.
It's possible that he didn't have as much Karma as the other guy and was truly sorry for what he had done. Then he would go with Jesus to paradise but would have to come back. Just like Betty J. Eadie who was a Mormon and in her extensive NDE where she went to paradise and came back and was told that we do reincarnate by some advanced beings.
If a child heard the statement. " fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming" the child would ask then. Where is Elijah? That is like saying Elijah is coming but he is not coming. Even a child can understand that. You all have blinders on. And that is OK, I am trying to show you this since I use to be one of you and had your same belief system.
Passages such as 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. Which body or carnation do you get? If you get a second chance at life, then why worry about being saved when you will get numerous chances to believe and which carnation that does not believe go to eternal punishment? Good luck with your carnations.
Read what Kevin Willamas has to say about it and then let me know what you think. He talks about Thessalonians 4:13 here. Replace the [dot] with a period.
near-death [dot] com/experiences/origen03 [dot] html
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
OK, I think the thought here is that if someone were to reincarnate they would do it immediately after ones death. This is not the case. If you look at NDE's they are not immediately returned. Instead they go a place, somewhere either in one of the hell realms or they go to one of the heavenly realms depending on what kind of life they lived. Many times they find themselves in a neutral place like the operating room but in another dimension. They can see what is going on in the room, the doctors and nurses working and stuff. Sometimes these reports are later confirmed as to what happed in the ER. Besides there are also many worlds in the universe that one could also reincarnate into. It is ignorant to think that this is the only world in the universe to have life or that we are the pinnacle of creation. Mathematically there has to be other life out there. It's practically impossible for there not to be.
It all depends on how you interpret the versus. Their are plenty of versus that support universal salvation.
For example, the verse "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) is a primary verse used by "Jesus Saves" theologians; however, this verse has been interpreted by Liberal Christians as meaning that salvation comes from following the teachings of Jesus, rather than through his death on the cross
Luke 3:6
And all people will see God’s salvation.’”
I believe this.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 4: 10 God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of believers’
Not only does that scripture point to all believers but just after that it says especially of the believers. This is speaking of universal salvation.
Col 1: 19, 20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus), and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
This clearly shows what happens if one does wrong in there life that they will be saved which possibly also supports reincarnation.
Christians make the blood of Christ into some free for all. When Jesus does use his blood to save someone from hell as in Howard Storms case, it is a rare thing. It would take many incarnations before one would, receive such grace in the unfortunate circumstance that one goes to one of the hell realms and Jesus saves them. It is also very rare that Jesus and God would Judge us. It is actually confusing as to if Jesus would Judge you or the Father.
John 8:50
I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [Meaning the Father]
John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
John 8:15
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
Luke 19:22 [a parable]
“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! [meaning we will judge our own selves.]
And this proves it.
Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
How can an eternal hell be a just measure for someone that is loving and contributed to society but without being a Christian. It makes no sense. Such a person is still a child spiritually and does not deserve some eternal torment. This is madness. And I use to believe this stuff until I grew up and got a broader understanding of reality and truth.
John 12:47
“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
This is what I truly believe when Jesus comes back soon he will save this world from all the darkness and deception. I believe he is waiting for somethings first. Maybe for our civializatioin to become more advance. I'm not sure. But it will be a great time. This world will be transformed and everyone will know God within themselves in due time.
Doesn't everybody wish they could just live one life time and then they go to a place that is absolutely perfect forever. A dream come true. That would be a great way to interpret the scriptures that way.
The apostles understood that Jesus was talking about John the baptist.
What comparisons and illustrations are you talking about?
Hum, I just posted that direct teaching in my first post which none of you have given me a meaningful alternative. To the so called figurative meaning.
It was not God that left out the missing link. It was the the Roman Catholic Church and the then the Christian churches that left it out. They killed and burned to make sure their view, and only there view that was taught.
That might have been the case before 1947 and 1956 and 1945 before they found the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi library and the discovery by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely. He was able to discover Essene documents in the secret archives of the Vatican, . All of which have radically changed the way we view early Christianity.
Reincarnation and the Early Christians Replace [dot] with a period.
near-death [dot] com/experiences/origen06 [dot] html
OK the reason why the sheer numbers are there to reject reincarnation is because the Roman Catholic Church not only denounced reincarnation but killed all those opposed to it. They were murderers. If we had more written about what Jesus actually said we would have understood with more certainly what the scriptures meant.
You also maybe interested to know according to wiki.
According to a 2005 Gallup poll 20 percent of U.S. adults believe in reincarnation. Recent surveys by the Barna Group, a Christian research nonprofit organization, have found that a quarter of U.S. Christians, including 10 percent of all born-again Christians, embrace the idea.
You probably wouldn't think that. In fact I found two other polls that show 24 to 25 percent believe in reincarnation.
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
Is eternal, never ever ending.
OK at this point I would like to point some things out. Hell is not eternal. It is a place where people purge the negativity of their bad actions.
Don't be fooled on this. Most pastors would have believe that the original words of eternal mean never ending. In the very LEST it DEFENITLY is NOT as CLEAR CUT as Pastors would have you believe. If you actually look at the definition and the context in which the word is used. It is clear this is not the case. It is clear that eternal can't mean never ever ending. I plead with you to take a look the the other side of this issue in the links I will provide you here. Note replace [dot] with a period.
hopebeyondhell [dot] net/blog/what-does-“eternity”-in-the-bible-mean/
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/aion [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1 [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2 [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3 [dot] html
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Do your homework guys or your just looking at one view. If your view is the correct view it will stand in any light and if it is not, your view will be refined.
Peace!
OK at this point I would like to point some things out. Hell is not eternal. It is a place where people purge the negativity of their bad actions.
Don't be fooled on this. Most pastors would have believe that the original words of eternal mean never ending. In the very LEST it DEFENITLY is NOT as CLEAR CUT as Pastors would have you believe. If you actually look at the definition and the context in which the word is used. It is clear this is not the case. It is clear that eternal can't mean never ever ending. I plead with you to take a look the the other side of this issue in the links I will provide you here. Note replace [dot] with a period.
hopebeyondhell [dot] net/blog/what-does-“eternity”-in-the-bible-mean/
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/aion [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1 [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2 [dot] html
concordant [dot] org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3 [dot] html
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Do your homework guys or your just looking at one view. If your view is the correct view it will stand in any light and if it is not, your view will be refined.
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
What do you mean "It's more then giving your life to Jesus"? I mean can you elaborate more?
Peace!
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david14433
I am a seeker of truth and reality.
I believe in Gnosticism. Though I don't consider myself a Gnostic. I consider myself a Christian graduated to universalism. Though I don't identify myself with universalism. I think all religions are looking at different sides of one box. That box is reality. Some focus on one side while others have a more rounded view. While still others are having a hard time interpreting the box and others like Christians are having a hard time interpreting how others interpret reality. Edit: I can never identify myself with any religion, after looking at things so black and white for so long as a Christian. Because in reality things aren't so black and white when your going off of interpretations of reality, because they are just interpretations. If you want we can get into this deeper. BTW I'm almost done on my rebuttal for you SQLservant.
Peace!
Peace!
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