Regeneration comes before faith

[nobdysfool]

You were about to admit that a true believer can forfeit salvation...

(Ben turns and runs like the wind before NBF can pick up something to throw...)

You can run, but you can't hide!

All in due time, Ben, all in due time....

 

[verismo]

...
That sounds good, Gene.
...

I must admit Ben, I am not really following your post there, I am not sure what you are getting at, I understand the things that you say in their chunks, but I am missing your proposed conclusions.

But it does sort of seem that we agree...don't we? I'm lost...lots of words and colors...ADD fit; sorry. And...who's Gene?

 

[Ben johnson]

But it does sort of seem that we agree...don't we? I'm lost...lots of words and colors...ADD fit; sorry. And...who's Gene?

I humbly apologize, Verismo; posted here when I was tired, and trying to fit in about 6 theological discussions into the space of about 15 minutes; seems the RESULTS exceeded my TALENT. :o

We agree on "baptism of the will"; and that baptism is an obligation. But I still stubbornly insist that it is CALLING ON JESUS' NAME that remits our sins, not the water.

This thread asserts the Calvinist doctrine of "regeneration preceeding saving-faith/belief". The idea being that God CHOOSES who will be saved, and WHILE they are "spiritual corpses" He REGENERATES THEIR HEARTS; from this regeneration flows faith, discernment, maturity, perseverance. And of course I am asserting that "belief RECEIVES the Spirit and His regeneration"; which makes the belief subject to the PERSON, and therefore each of us CAN disbelieve and FALL.

Belief that is gifted by God cannot disbelieve, ever. And, really --- if "no one born of God sins, indeed he CANNOT sin if the Spirit abides in him" (1Jn3:9) --- then if saving-faith IS gifted THEN WE ARE SINLESS! The very fact that we DO sin, demonstrates that God is RESISTIBLE. And after sinning the same choice still exists --- to sin AGAIN, or to REPENT.

One who sins again and again, is NOT abiding him Him. (Is NOT saved.)

Does that make sense?

 

[Ben johnson]

You can run, but you can't hide!

Oh YEAH??? I have this great new CAMOFLAGE SHIRT! You'll be walking RIGHT BY me, and never SEE me at... at...

...wait --- darn it, where IS that shirt! I can't FIND it!

NOOO! It's CAMOFLAGED!!! AUGHHHHH!

 

[LynneClomina]

But you see --- in Jn12:32 Jesus says "draw ALL men to Myself!" It ALSO uses "helkuo". So if we ARE "totally depraved", then this DRAWING/DRAGGING overcomes that depravity --- dragging us to where we CAN believe. Or not...

This fits perfectly with the parable of Matt22:2-14; where ALL had been invited, but only those who RECEIVED the invitation (and put on righteousness) become "the chosen". What else could Jesus have meant in vs14, that "there ARE many truly called who are NOT chosen"? (And there is nothing in Jesus' words that even hints that the KING had anything to do with their arriving; it was completely as they wished)....

I don't see any indication in Jn12:32 of the idea of "only SOME of ALL TYPES"...

from NAS Lexicon: http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=nas

Pas = all
1. individually
. -each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
. -some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

.....

note the differentiation between "individually" or "collectively". when its dealing with one thing, ie. a person or group, it's the WHOLE group. when it's dealing with a collective ie. many people or many people groups/nations, its SOME of all of them.

Lynne

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh YEAH??? I have this great new CAMOFLAGE SHIRT! You'll be walking RIGHT BY me, and never SEE me at... at...

...wait --- darn it, where IS that shirt! I can't FIND it!

NOOO! It's CAMOFLAGED!!! AUGHHHHH!

Which only proves that you are predestined to not be able to hide from me....

 

[Ben johnson]

Pas = all
1. individually
. -each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
. -some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

Hi, Lynne. See if you can apply this argument to Romans 5:18.

"SO THEN as through one transgression came condemnation to ALL MEN...
EVEN SO through one act of righteousness came justification to ALL MEN."

Can you do it? Can you deny that "so then --- even so" presents an exact equality between "came condemnation", and "came justification"? You will obviously correctly (and unaviodably) acknowledge that the FIRST "Pas Anthropos" really DOES mean that everyone is condemned, but then can you side-step and say that the SECOND "Pas Anthropos" only means SOME of ALL TYPES?

Condemnation CAME to ALL MEN, on the CONDITION that they-are-condemned-who-SIN. Verse 5:12 says "all DID sin" (all met the condition).

Jutification CAME to ALL MEN (in the exact quanity as came condemnation); but the CONDITION for justification, is clearly stated in verse 17 --- it must be RECEIVED.

Is there any way to deny that the SECOND "pas anthropos" means ALL MEN exactly as the FIRST "pas anthropos" means ALL MEN?