Regeneration before faith?

[FreeGrace2]

Regeneration before faith?

This link just goes back to your previous post, #56.

Again, that is no refutation.

Eph 2:5 shows that salvation and regeneration are equated.

Eph 2:8 shows that salvation is THROUGH faith.

If you can prove that faith doesn't have to be present for salvation, then please proceed. But the word "through" obviously proves that faith must be present for salvation.

Not to mention all the verses that plainly indicate that faith is required for salvation, and you well know that there are NO verses that place regeneration before salvation.

 

[Hammster]

This link just goes back to your previous post, #56.

Again, that is no refutation.

Eph 2:5 shows that salvation and regeneration are equated.

Eph 2:8 shows that salvation is THROUGH faith.

If you can prove that faith doesn't have to be present for salvation, then please proceed. But the word "through" obviously proves that faith must be present for salvation.

Not to mention all the verses that plainly indicate that faith is required for salvation, and you well know that there are NO verses that place regeneration before salvation.

Regeneration before faith?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Regeneration before faith?

I see the record player is stuck.

And that's ok, too.

 

[Hammster]

I see the record player is stuck.

And that's ok, too.

It’s not stuck. It’s on repeat.

 

[All Glory To God]

It's not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s not stuck. It’s on repeat.

No appreciable (functional) difference.

But that's ok too. The claim of refutation is just that. No evidence for it.

And even that's ok.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Yes, God is the One who regenerates. Just as no person chooses to be born, no person chooses to be born again.

And that isn't the issue at all. The issue is this: To whom does God give new birth to?

1. Unbelievers, so that they will become believers?

2. Believers.

Since there are no verses that say or teach that unbelievers are regenerated, we can jettison #1.

So, we know that God regenerates believers, just as the Bible says that God saves "those who believe".

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I love this verse. It's so unreformed.

 

[Hammster]

No appreciable (functional) difference.

But that's ok too. The claim of refutation is just that. No evidence for it.

And even that's ok.

You claim you’re correct without examining context. So there’s nothing to refute.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You claim you’re correct without examining context.

My claim is based on the very clear and plain words of the 2 verses.

So there’s nothing to refute.

Oh, that's funny. I'd love to see how "context" changes the plain meaning of the 2 verses.

But, of course, I hope someone else can provide such explanation, since it's clear an examination of the context won't be coming from your posts.

 

[Hammster]

My claim is based on the very clear and plain words of the 2 verses.

Not really. I’ve yet to see you use context. That’s why I’m not responding to your argument. You’ll only deconstruct it like the verses aren’t even related.


Been there, done that, too tired to care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not really. I’ve yet to see you use context. That’s why I’m not responding to your argument. You’ll only deconstruct it like the verses aren’t even related.


Been there, done that, too tired to care.

Please don't feel obligated to try to defend your tactics. It's clear that no explanations will be forthcoming. So feel free to bow out.

However, hiding behind 'context' doesn't help when there isn't any explanation.

And there is NO WAY context will change the FACTS that I've pointed out. It would be a myth to claim otherwise.

 

[Hammster]

Please don't feel obligated to try to defend your tactics. It's clear that no explanations will be forthcoming. So feel free to bow out.

However, hiding behind 'context' doesn't help when there isn't any explanation.

And there is NO WAY context will change the FACTS that I've pointed out. It would be a myth to claim otherwise.

Mkay.

 

[Brightfame52]

The fact that man needs to be born again before he can see the kingdom of God Jn 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This also relates to what Paul teaches in 2 Cor 4:3-4 how that men who are lost[unregenerate state] have the Gospel hidden from them.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Its hid from their minds. The word hid means καλύπτω

to hide, veil

1. to hinder the knowledge of a thing

So when one is Born of God, they are saved, no longer lost, hence then enabled to believe the Gospel of their Salvation,/believe on Christ who hath saved them !16

 

[FreeGrace2]

The fact that man needs to be born again before he can see the kingdom of God Jn 3:3

Let's look at the rest of the text, for perspective.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus was saying the same thing in v.3 and v.5.

Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

The mistake is thinking that "seeing the kingdom of God" means getting saved. It actually involves understanding God's whole plan and is equated with "entering".

So the teaching is that to be in God's kingdom, one must be born again.

And how is one born again? By grace through faith, Eph 2:8. v.5 equates regeneration and salvation, so v.8 applies to regeneration as well.

 

[Brightfame52]

Let's look at the rest of the text, for perspective.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus was saying the same thing in v.3 and v.5.

Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.

The mistake is thinking that "seeing the kingdom of God" means getting saved. It actually involves understanding God's whole plan and is equated with "entering".

So the teaching is that to be in God's kingdom, one must be born again.

And how is one born again? By grace through faith, Eph 2:8. v.5 equates regeneration and salvation, so v.8 applies to regeneration as well.

Ye must be born again to see the kingdom of God !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ye must be born again to see the kingdom of God !

That's what I said. And Jesus as well.

 

[Brightfame52]

Another scripture that Illustrates that believing /faith is evidence of the new birth or having been born again is 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The sanctification of the Spirit preceded and effected the belief of the Truth, which is the Gospel Paul preached to them Vs 14

whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See Paul had once written that his Gospel was hid to the lost[unregenerate] 2 Cor 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

However to these Thessalonians, they weren't in a lost state spiritually, but had been sanctified by the Spirit, saved from spiritual death, given new spiritual life, even born anew.

I agree with John Gill on the meaning of sanctification of the Spirit:

through sanctification of the spirit, and belief of the truth by sanctification is meant, not anything external, as reformation of life, obedience to the law, or outward submission to Gospel ordinances; but internal holiness, which lies in a principle of spiritual life in the soul, and in a principle of spiritual light on the understanding; in a flexion of the will to the will of God, and the way of salvation by Christ; in a settlement of the affections on divine and spiritual things, and in an implantation of all grace in the heart; and is called the sanctification of "the spirit", partly from the spirit or soul of man being the principal seat of it, and chiefly from the Spirit of God being the author of it; and this being a means fixed in the decree of election to salvation, shows that holiness is not the cause of election, yet is certain by it, and is necessary to salvation; and that the doctrine of election is no licentious doctrine, since it provides for and secures true and real holiness. "Truth" designs either the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truth of types and promises, and the substance of the truth of the Gospel, in whom it lies, and by whom it comes; or the Gospel itself, which comes from the God of truth, lies in the Scriptures of truth, is dictated and directed into by the spirit of truth; the sum of it is Christ the truth, and has nothing in it but truth. The "belief" or "faith" of this intends, not an historical faith, or a mere assent to truth; but a cordial embracing of it, a receiving of the love of the truth, a feeling of the power of it unto salvation, and a believing in Christ, the substance of it; which is a seeing of him spiritually, and a going out of the soul to him in acts of hope; reliance, trust, and dependence; and this being also a means settled in the choice of men to salvation, makes it appear, that faith is no cause of election, but the effect of it; that it is necessary to salvation, and therefore appointed as a means; that it is certain to the elect by it, and that they therefore cannot be finally and totally deceived, or be carried away with the error of the wicked, or with the deceivableness of unrighteousness with which antichrist works.24

 

[FreeGrace2]

Another scripture that Illustrates that believing /faith is evidence of the new birth or having been born again is 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The sanctification of the Spirit preceded and effected the belief of the Truth

The verse doesn't say that at all. The "sanctification of the Spirit" is connected by a conjunction of continuation with 'belief in the truth'. They go together. One doesn't "effect" the other.

And, what God is choosing in this verse isn't salvation, but the MEANS of salvation, or santification and belief.

 

[Brightfame52]

Another scripture that confirms that faith/obedience is evidence of a previous Sovereign work of the Spirit is 1 Peter 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The obedience here is evangelical obedience or faith obedience as in Rom 1:5

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name

Rom 16:26

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Acts 6:7

7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Sanctification of the Spirit is also New Birth!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Another scripture that confirms that faith/obedience is evidence of a previous Sovereign work of the Spirit is 1 Peter 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The verse says:

Elect (chosen) UNTO obedience. There it is, straightforward.

Believers are chosen UNTO obedience, not salvation. Obedience is service.