Regeneration before faith?

[Hammster]

You really are a poor communicator.

That’s possible. But I never said that “all” was used as all types in the previous verses. And that’s what you implied that I did.

 

[AVB 2]

I was actually searching for information online about another topic and found this. If I remember correctly it came from a respected Christian writer, but I may be mixed up since I looked at a lot of websites. I have never heard of this before. It seems like some believe that a person can be regenerated before they had faith in Christ and redemption by his sacrifice. There was no scripture given as to on what this was based.

Is it familiar to others and can anyone explain to me where this belief came from?

We MUST have faith in order to please God (Heb 11:6) so where do we get it? We get it where we get "every good and perfect gift" from the Father above" (James 1:17.) It is a gift from Him. Ephesians 1:3 "All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ." Is faith a "spiritual blessing?" Yes, so God gives us the faith we need to believe in Him.

There seems to be a big mystery as to the meaning of "regeneration." The word regeneration in Greek is "palingenesia" a compound word which is derived from two Greek words "palin" and "genesia." Palin means "again" and "genesia" means birth, so it means born again.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 “God has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; and no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

“God, before the foundation of the world implanted into His children, a knowledge of Himself.” Augustine of Hippo.

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” That there exists in the human mind and indeed by natural instinct, some sense of Deity we hold to be beyond dispute, since God himself, to prevent any man from pretending ignorance, has endued all men with some idea of his Godhead. Non-Christians have knowledge of God and his law. Saving knowledge can come only from a special and additional revelation (since God the Redeemer is revealed only in scripture), but all, without exception, have real non-salvific knowledge of God.

Just as a computer programmer programs into the computer what the computer needs in order to perform its work, God has implanted a knowledge of Himself and faith in Him in us in utero. There is proof in the natural world in that infants by natural instinct nurse at the breast, cry to summon its caretaker and twelve other actions without being taught.

 

[John Mullally]

That’s possible. But I never said that “all” was used as all types in the previous verses. And that’s what you implied that I did.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 makes no sense if you exchange every instance of "all men" with "all types of men" and using a mixture of "all" and "all types" is worse.

No, I did mention that possibility - see the underlined text above.

Using the Bible Hub Interlinear: I find the same Greek phrase translated to "all men" in the NKJV for verses 1 and 4. It makes no sense for Paul to use the same phrase in close proximity to mean different things.

 

[Hammster]

No, I did mention that possibility - see the underlined text above.

Yes. See your underlined post.

Using the Bible Hub Interlinear: I find the same Greek phrase translated to "all men" in the NKJV for verses 1 and 4. It makes no sense for Paul to use the same phrase in close proximity to mean different things.

Why not?

 

[John Mullally]

Why not?

It is simply unreasonable to think that the same greek phrase translated “all men” in 1 Timothy 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV, mean two completely different things. The two passages are very close together and relate to the subject of Praying for all men.

 

[Dah'veed]

Regeneration before faith?
I was actually searching for information online about another topic and found this. If I remember correctly it came from a respected Christian writer, but I may be mixed up since I looked at a lot of websites. I have never heard of this before. It seems like some believe that a person can be regenerated before they had faith in Christ and redemption by his sacrifice...

That's wishful thinking. For everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God; 1 John 5:1

 

[Hammster]

It is simply unreasonable to think that the same greek phrase translated “all men” in 1 Timothy 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV, mean two completely different things. The two passages are very close together and relate to the subject of Praying for all men.

You are repeating yourself. “It makes no sense” and “it’s simply unreasonable” are essentially the same statement. Why does proximity make this simply unreasonable?

 

[Dah'veed]

We MUST have faith in order to please God (Heb 11:6) so where do we get it? We get it where we get "every good and perfect gift" from the Father above" (James 1:17.) It is a gift from Him. Ephesians 1:3 "All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ." Is faith a "spiritual blessing?" Yes, so God gives us the faith we need to believe in Him.

But the son by the servant-woman was born according to the flesh, while the son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. Gal 4:23 So if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, [spiritual] heirs according to [God’s] promise. Gal 3:29

There seems to be a big mystery as to the meaning of "regeneration." The word regeneration in Greek is "palingenesia" a compound word which is derived from two Greek words "palin" and "genesia." Palin means "again" and "genesia" means birth, so it means born again.

Our living hope 1 Peter 1:3 is in the Savior of all people. In particular, of all those who believe in Him. 1 Tim 4:10

Non-Christians have knowledge of God and his law.
Saving knowledge can come only from a special and additional revelation (since God the Redeemer is revealed only in scripture), but all, without exception, have real non-salvific knowledge of God.

If you hear My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own people; for all the earth is mine. Ex 19:5

Who gave himself for us, to redeem us from all unrighteousness, and make us His own peculiar people; Titus 2:14

 

[zoidar]

I think it does, and here’s why. First, as I’ve tried to show in my thread, we have countless examples from scripture that shows God didn’t try to save everyone.

Can we agree on that trying to save and wanting to save are different things?

In fact, in order to show His glory, He hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that the Passover could happen, the Israelites would be set free, Pharaoh would chase after them, and die in the Red Sea.

Not to mention, God actually had a chosen people. This means that everyone else wasn’t chosen.

Yet, people that weren't of the chosen people were saved.

Then, look at the text.

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-4

I think this is similar to Titus 2.

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
— Titus 2:1-12

I think “all men” is used similarly. There’s a list of different types of people, Paul sums it up by saying all types of people, which can be the way it’s understood grammatically.

I know this is your stance, I'm sure John Mullally knows that too.

 

[Hammster]

Can we agree on that trying to save and wanting to save are different things?

The only way I can concede that is to agree that God cannot do something that’s within His power and authority to do. I’m not willing to make that concession.

Yet, people that weren't of the chosen people were saved.

But not apart from God’s people. And you’ve ignored my point.

I know this is your stance, I'm sure John Mullally knows that too.

And now I’ve given a solid argument to back it up. And I’ve done so without taking anything out of context.

 

[zoidar]

The only way I can concede that is to agree that God cannot do something that’s within His power and authority to do.

I don't understand your reasoning or why it would be so.

I’m not willing to make that concession.

We should agree that "trying to save" and "wanting to save" are different things in language. If we don't use the language the same way there is no possibility to have a discussion. Or we have to start with discussing what you mean by "trying" and "wanting".

But not apart from God’s people. And you’ve ignored my point.

What was your point? I showed you your claim was wrong: "This means that everyone else wasn’t chosen." Of course God had a chosen people, and obviously only Israel was God's chosen people. But that was not only concerning salvation in the sense that only Israel would be saved and no other people. For an example what about the people of Nineveh?

The same as with the Canaanite woman. She was not of the chosen people Israel Jesus came to save. Yet he healed her anyway.

But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.
— Matthew 15:24-28

And now I’ve given a solid argument to back it up. And I’ve done so without taking anything out of context.

No, you have given a possible understanding of Titus 2:1-12 which doesn't fit 1 Timothy 2:1-6 very well. Most scholars also disagree with you.

 

[Dan1988]

What do you mean by private interpretations? Who's or what interpretations do you find reliable?

But someone needs to interpret Scripture using Scripture right? That isn't happening by itself, is it?



With the Early Church I meant the writings of the Church Fathers up to the council of Nicaea AD 325. If you are interested I will look up evidence for you that "Calvinism" wasn't held by the Early Church Fathers. Of course I know that Calvinism is from the 16th century, but we are talking about the teachings, not the name itself.

I find the only true interpretation of Holy Scripture, is God's Infallible Inerrant Word as we have it in the Bible. Whatever man adds or takes away from God's Word, serves Satan. The things of God are foolishness for those who are perishing, we can easily tell who the true believers are by the way they treat God's Word, if they twist, add or take away from it then we know who they are.

Your right, someone needs to interpret the scriptures for us. This is what the Holy spirit does for the elect, but it remains foolishness to the proud and the mighty men of the world. God chooses to reveal the truth to "babes", He said we cannot enter the Kingdom unless we are as babes.

Calvinism is all about God's sovereignty, we believe that God is sovereign over everything and absolutely everything. Everything includes salvation, He wouldn't leave the most important thing in creation up to fallen sinful man. We believe God when He said I choose them before I created the world. I know Arminians hate this truth but it right there in black and white, you can twist it any way you like but the truth remains unchangeable for all eternity.

 

[John Mullally]

It is simply unreasonable to think that the same greek phrase translated “all men” in 1 Timothy 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV, mean two completely different things. The two passages are very close together and relate to the subject of Praying for all men.

You are repeating yourself. “It makes no sense” and “it’s simply unreasonable” are essentially the same statement. Why does proximity make this simply unreasonable?

1. I repeat myself because your suggestion is absurd. When intelligent people use the same phrase in close proximity (in this case 3 verses apart), they are referring to the same thing - otherwise they would use different phrases. Better yet, they would separate them into different topics (time spaced or page spaced) to avoid confusion and conflating. Paul is intelligent. Get it!
2. Talking about "all types of men" makes no sense in 1 Timothy 2:4. Its not like there was a question at that time as to which types of people God desired to save. As TImothy, to whom the letter was addressed, went on missions with Paul and knew that various types of people were saved. He suffered with Paul.
3. When praying for all people (which was the topic in 1 Timothy 2:1-7), as to whether God would desire to save all people would be informational. Telling Timothy that God wants to save all types of people would not be informational because Timothy (who was half Jew and half Greek) was not a bigot. Timothy had already seen that God saves all different types of people on his mission trip with Paul. If God only desired to save the elect (as Calvinist acclaim),
4. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men - and the unique phasing of that passage puts that assertion beyond dispute. So why would God be the Savior of all men if He did not desire to save all men?
5. In past conversations, 1 Timothy 4:10 bothers you because your Calvinist presuppositions caused you to belive I was asserting Universalism - when all I was doing was quoting the verse.. That should tell you something right there!

 

[linux.poet]

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