Regeneration before faith?

[Brightfame52]

Because the elect of God have a representative union with Christ their Head, and because He rose from the dead as such, each one of them will experience of His resurrection by being given a new birth or spiritual resurrection Eph 2:5-6; 1 Pet 1:3

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[zoidar]

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[Frosty Cook]

I was actually searching for information online about another topic and found this. If I remember correctly it came from a respected Christian writer, but I may be mixed up since I looked at a lot of websites. I have never heard of this before. It seems like some believe that a person can be regenerated before they had faith in Christ and redemption by his sacrifice. There was no scripture given as to on what this was based.

Is it familiar to others and can anyone explain to me where this belief came from?

The natural man only has faith in mankind and their accomplishments. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and only comes with the new birth (regeneration) when God puts his Holy Spirit within the born again person.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Thanks so much for the replies! I'd never heard of this before and it didn't make sense to me, but I wondered if it belonged to a different "group" of Christian believers for reasons I was unfamiliar with. It seems to me it goes against Ephesians 2:8: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God... as well as other scriptures.

This "saved" has reference to eternal salvation and "faith" in this verse is not mankind's faith but the faith of Jesus. Gal 2:16.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Regeneration/the new birth does not occur until one is water baptized (John 3:5; Titus 3:5) and belief is a prerequsite to regeneration/new birth, Mark 16:16.

The "Kingdom of God" is one of the names that have reference to the church, and baptism is necessary to enter into the church. Baptism is not a requirement to enter into heaven. Titus 2:5 - The "washing" is "the word", the living water that Jesus mentioned to the woman at the well-John 4:10, and is not a requirement for eternal salvation.

 

[Frosty Cook]

The "Kingdom of God" is one of the names that have reference to the church, and baptism is necessary to enter into the church. Baptism is not a requirement to enter into heaven. Titus 2:5 - The "washing" is "the word", the living water that Jesus mentioned to the woman at the well-John 4:10, and is not a requirement for eternal salvation.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Windwhistler, I watch Sproul, Piper, MacArthur and others all the time just to see .................. Be careful!!!

Romans 1:18-21 says:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.


It doesn’t get much clearer than that! What may be known about God is plain to them! WHY? Because they have already been regenerated??? No!!! Because God has made it plain to them!

God did not leave man clueless. Besides that He has given the Holy Spirit who is here to convict man of sin, righteousness, and judgement. God has given the Law as a Tutor to lead us to Christ.

And God has given us His Son and the Gospel message which IS the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES!!! When you BELIEVE the Gospel He SAVES you!

Man needs to see he is depraved and not able to save himself. He just needs faith the size of a mustard seed to see his need for a Savior and place his faith in the one who loved him so much to give His life for him. Upon receiving Him, (to ALL who receive Him) He gives the right to become a child of God and is born from above. Regenerated!

Spiritual faith only comes after regeneration with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in which spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The natural man, before he has been born again, cannot have spiritual faith, even as small as a mustard seed, because the things of the Spirit are foolishness to him and he cannot discern them - 1 Cor 2:14.

Romans 1 has reference to the regenerated person who has a zeal of God, but not according to righteousness. Romans 10 has an example of the same situation, in that, Paul is praying for the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel (Israel being Jacob's new name=Gen 32:28) (Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect children- Rom 9:11) The reason the sheep were lost is because they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[corinth77777]

I was actually searching for information online about another topic and found this. If I remember correctly it came from a respected Christian writer, but I may be mixed up since I looked at a lot of websites. I have never heard of this before. It seems like some believe that a person can be regenerated before they had faith in Christ and redemption by his sacrifice. There was no scripture given as to on what this was based.

Is it familiar to others and can anyone explain to me where this belief came from?

Hi, The topic of regeneration is a subject I've been wanting to study more.

I believe how one derives their understanding of what comes first is how the Gospel is presented to them.

As a matter of fact Justification and regeneration may be lumped together in some minds. Even they may go hand in handthey are different.

 

[corinth77777]

That does talk about sonship. Belief does come before justification. However, John says right there that regeneration is not by man’s will, but by God’s.


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
— 1 John 5:1

But Isn't the the will of God that you believe on His son?

 

[corinth77777]

But that faith (the faith that you say pleases God) comes after regeneration. This means that the unregenerate man does something to please God, and then is regenerated.

Could he repent and believe?

 

[corinth77777]

I have done no such thing!

You asked if I agree that believing the gospel is something that pleases God.

People have faith in works. That does not please God.
They have faith in religions. That does not please God.

The moment a person places their faith IN CHRIST they are no longer unregenerate. They are a new creature IN CHRIST! And that faith in the Gospel pleases God!

But then what does that scripture mean..

as it is written:

n“None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one.”

 

[Hammster]

But Isn't the the will of God that you believe on His son?

It is. That’s why we are born again, to believe.

 

[Hammster]

Could he repent and believe?

I think it’s not as much about ability as it is about willingness.

 

[corinth77777]

I think it’s not as much about ability as it is about willingness.

I can see that...because a good attitude is the manner of humbleness in which you come as to be restored.

For myself ..and I'm not sure, but there is some measure of faith on our part..not that we gave ourselves anything, but how God created us.

I think what is within Christ also has to be exercised outside of Christ....rather that is the willingness to act....

I may be interpreting wrong...."but from faith to faith."
As You "draw near to Him" He draws near to you.
That may be part of fathing... acting on[which is the willingness]..
Because it may be what you hear that moves you...since faith comes by hearing.

After all how can one believe without someone to preach to them....there is an action on our part......and I agree, for I believe..
Hearing...is the precursor for believing...
(Maybe it is in the believing that you are Willing)
For in some way God has made us in His image....And I believe His word may be the Call....hearing may be what makes our own Spirit alive ....For in hearing one is willing or not willing depending on their need(who they think they are)....And this just might be
The inward repentance where by we are ready to be cleansed by the Spirit....

Just rambling....
But my theory is we cant come to Him to receive forgiveness any kind of way.

John the Baptist called them brood of vipers and told them to bring forth fruit, right of repentance......then they could come back and receive the Baptism of repentance

 

[Frosty Cook]

Unbelievers are chosen to obedience, obedience of Faith ! Which is Salvation. Man naturally is imprisoned in disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word unbelief here is the greek word apeitheia which means:

1. 
   
   
   • obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
   • Its translated disobedience 3 times:

Rom 11:30

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,

Eph 2:2

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient

Eph 5:6

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

For God to have mercy on the unbelieving disobedient is their Salvation and they are made obedient !

Brightfram52, I have been following your posts and am in agreement with 99% of them, however, your last sentence in this post, I believe, you have misstated. I believe the scriptures that you have quoted are referencing born again children of being disobedient. I may be wrong, but I think it is worth discussing don't you?

This brings to remembrance Paul's rendition of the warfare that all of the born again has within them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Brightfram52, I have been following your posts and am in agreement with 99% of them, however, your last sentence in this post, I believe, you have misstated. I believe the scriptures that you have quoted are referencing born again children of being disobedient. I may be wrong, but I think it is worth discussing don't you?

This brings to remembrance Paul's rendition of the warfare that all of the born again has within them.

Prior to New Birth the Elect are disobedient Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

As Born again believers we are not disobedient, but servants of righteousness Rom 6:18. Now as believers, we do have a warfare with the flesh Gal 5;Rom 7 but that's not disobedience.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Regeneration/the new birth does not occur until one is water baptized (John 3:5; Titus 3:5) and belief is a prerequsite to regeneration/new birth, Mark 16:16.

If that is true how were people regenerated before John the Baptist’s ministry?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Prior to New Birth the Elect are disobedient Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

As Born again believers we are not disobedient, but servants of righteousness Rom 6:18. Now as believers, we do have a warfare with the flesh Gal 5;Rom 7 but that's not disobedience.

Born again believers can never sin? If that were the case then there would be no need for Paul to warn believers not to turn back to a sinful way of life as he did in Ephesians 4:17-31 and on into Ephesians 5:1-6

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Brightfame52]

Born again believers can never sin? If that were the case then there would be no need for Paul to warn believers not to turn back to a sinful way of life as he did in Ephesians 4:17-31 and on into Ephesians 5:1-6

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You gone off on another subject !

 

[BNR32FAN]

You gone off on another subject !

Sin is not disobedience?