Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[EmSw]

Is it the Law you claim we must keep, or just the 10 commandments?

Good question NF. Jesus gave us the answer.

Matthew 22 -
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Notice ALL Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. Here is Strong's definition of hang -

"used of the Law and the Prophets, that is summed up or hanging on two precepts"

You take all the laws and all the prophets, and they are summed up in these two commandments.

The first and great commandment is to love the Lord your God. This corresponds to the first four of the Ten Commandments.

The second, to love your neighbor as yourself, is like it, in that it corresponds to the last six of the Ten Commandments.

To love the Lord your God, that is, keep His commandments, along with loving your neighbor as yourself, the Royal Law in James, sums up all the Law and Prophets.

As John says, a person does not know God if he doesn't keep His commandments, which are summed up in the two Jesus gave, and covers all the Law and Prophets. If a person does not keep His commandments, then John says that person is a liar and does not have the truth within him.

These are harsh words from John, but the truth nonetheless.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Do you not believe jesus when he asked you to be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it Matthew‬7‬:13-14‬
Their are to Many clear versus that clearly show that is conditional Rom 11:23

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans‬ 11‬:21-23‬

This is clear and from God not man Trust no man

You must think Christ was either lying or mistaken when He said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..."

It does not say He WILL give eternal life. It says he gives it. Present tense. If salvation is not permanent, then there is NO eternal life, Christ lied, and we are still in sin.

Once again, you have misread Rom 11. Behavior is NOT what removes anyone from the tree. Unbelief is. Read it again. What you are teaching is heresy. The same heresy that Paul spoke so many times about in Romans, Colossians, and Galatians. He generally referred to it with the term "circumcision". "Circumcision" is a works based salvation. And it's worthless.

There are 4 things which provide salvation. And all 4 must be taken together. The death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ provides salvation. Any soteriological stance which does not include all four of these, as well as any stance which adds to them, is contrary to the apostolic teachings. If we must add anything to what Christ did, then His efforts were not sufficient, and His statement from the cross, "It is finished", was a lie. THAT is the logical end of what you are claiming to be true.

 

[lori milne]

Rom 3:21-28 LITV But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference, (23) for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, (26) for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus. (27) Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith. (28) Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law. It pays to read the context. Verse 25 does not stand alone. Paul is showing that Jesus not only propitiated the sins of the past, those sins that God in His Forebearance overlooked, but He also propitiated present sins currently being committed for those who believe on Him. So, Lori, when you claim it is only past sins that are atoned for (because what other conclusion could we draw from your words?), you clearly don't understand what Jesus did, and how sins are dealt with in the New Covenant. Do you realize that by being buried with Him in baptism, and raised in newness of life, we have been moved beyond the penalty for sin (physical death), so that we can serve Him in newness of life, the penalty having already been paid by the death of Jesus? Our account is marked "paid in full", and no man can be held accountable a second time for the same sins. You will not find that (being held to account a second time) anywhere in Scripture. All of a Believer's sins have been paid for, blotted out, wiped clean, removed as far as the East is from the West, in Christ. To have that benefit, you must be in Christ, meaning you must Believe on Him, and receive Him.

m
What's the LITV ? So I can look this up in your context
I can't seem to find it in my bible app?

 

[Hammster]

One eky to understanding Scripture is to know what the Greek words mean. In Matt 5:48, the word translated "perfect" is:
teleios

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Most likely, your understanding was that 'perfect' means to 'no longer sin'. Well, the Greek word certainly does NOT mean that.

Jesus NEVER said nor expected fallen humanity to be able to stop sinning. Even Paul struggled in his 2 natures; fallen and regenerated. Rom 6, 7 and Gal 3:16 are clear enough.

Which one of those definitions applies to God?

 

[lori milne]

Rom 3:21-28 LITV But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference, (23) for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, (26) for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus. (27) Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith. (28) Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law. It pays to read the context. Verse 25 does not stand alone. Paul is showing that Jesus not only propitiated the sins of the past, those sins that God in His Forebearance overlooked, but He also propitiated present sins currently being committed for those who believe on Him. So, Lori, when you claim it is only past sins that are atoned for (because what other conclusion could we draw from your words?), you clearly don't understand what Jesus did, and how sins are dealt with in the New Covenant. Do you realize that by being buried with Him in baptism, and raised in newness of life, we have been moved beyond the penalty for sin (physical death), so that we can serve Him in newness of life, the penalty having already been paid by the death of Jesus? Our account is marked "paid in full", and no man can be held accountable a second time for the same sins. You will not find that (being held to account a second time) anywhere in Scripture. All of a Believer's sins have been paid for, blotted out, wiped clean, removed as far as the East is from the West, in Christ. To have that benefit, you must be in Christ, meaning you must Believe on Him, and receive Him.

According to the kjv it's the same context wasn't derailed i don't thing any way
It still says past sins
It goes to talk about work before faith.
But in no way changes the meaning or order

I truly don't see what your saying it means.
I just take it for what it says.
Can you possibly show me ware it says unrepented sins are covered .
Or living in sin is ok.

 

[lori milne]

Rom 3:21-28 LITV But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference, (23) for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, (26) for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus. (27) Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith. (28) Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law. It pays to read the context. Verse 25 does not stand alone. Paul is showing that Jesus not only propitiated the sins of the past, those sins that God in His Forebearance overlooked, but He also propitiated present sins currently being committed for those who believe on Him. So, Lori, when you claim it is only past sins that are atoned for (because what other conclusion could we draw from your words?), you clearly don't understand what Jesus did, and how sins are dealt with in the New Covenant. Do you realize that by being buried with Him in baptism, and raised in newness of life, we have been moved beyond the penalty for sin (physical death), so that we can serve Him in newness of life, the penalty having already been paid by the death of Jesus? Our account is marked "paid in full", and no man can be held accountable a second time for the same sins. You will not find that (being held to account a second time) anywhere in Scripture. All of a Believer's sins have been paid for, blotted out, wiped clean, removed as far as the East is from the West, in Christ. To have that benefit, you must be in Christ, meaning you must Believe on Him, and receive Him.

Sorry again I don't see current or future sins covered which verse does this say that in

 

[lori milne]

Sorry again I don't see current or future sins covered which verse does this say that in

Unless your saying repenting is the law?

 

[nobdysfool]

According to the kjv it's the same context wasn't derailed i don't thing any way
It still says past sins
It goes to talk about work before faith.
But in no way changes the meaning or order

You're not reading it with understanding.

I truly don't see what your saying it means.
I just take it for what it says.

So do I, but I do have more understanding of what Paul is talking about, apparently

Can you possibly show me ware it says unrepented sins are covered .
Or living in sin is ok.

I never said that. Where do you come up with these false accusations? Please pay attention to what is actually being said to you, rather than filtering it through your own preconceptions!

 

[lori milne]

You must think Christ was either lying or mistaken when He said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..." It does not say He WILL give eternal life. It says he gives it. Present tense. If salvation is not permanent, then there is NO eternal life, Christ lied, and we are still in sin. Once again, you have misread Rom 11. Behavior is NOT what removes anyone from the tree. Unbelief is. Read it again. What you are teaching is heresy. The same heresy that Paul spoke so many times about in Romans, Colossians, and Galatians. He generally referred to it with the term "circumcision". "Circumcision" is a works based salvation. And it's worthless. There are 4 things which provide salvation. And all 4 must be taken together. The death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ provides salvation. Any soteriological stance which does not include all four of these, as well as any stance which adds to them, is contrary to the apostolic teachings. If we must add anything to what Christ did, then His efforts were not sufficient, and His statement from the cross, "It is finished", was a lie. THAT is the logical end of what you are claiming to be true.

works is not repenting.
Faith gives you Gods imputed righteousness , , which gives you the desire to work, obey the law or to not want to sin.

I take the whole bible into account when it comes to meanings that seem contradictive . And in the"assumed eternal security "verse you used "my sheep fallow me "I see the key word on the verse your using is "they follow me "

this part alone falls along and balances out with the bible and al of jesus teachings.
I think humbly speaking As soon as a translation or theology causes a contradiction then it's the translation or theology not the bible that has it wrong .

The verse your using is good, but it seems it's assumed meaning of it isn't balanced with the rest of Jesus teachings on sin No more or repent or you will thirst no more.

If I know We are to be like jesus, then "my sheep follow me "makes sense with using him as the example to live a sin free life.
It would be unbalanced of me to assume that's not what he meant.

Paul speaks of people who mix works before faith I'm not Jewish so this isn't me he is referring to its actually saved Jews who then fall back into the law before faith i believe if your speaking of Romans?
Romans infant the Jewish were complaining about he gentiles receiving righteousness before works and question Paul about it
Romans 3-4

 

[lori milne]

You're not reading it with understanding. So do I, but I do have more understanding of what Paul is talking about, apparently I never said that. Where do you come up with these false accusations? Please pay attention to what is actually being said to you, rather than filtering it through your own preconceptions!

This conversation I was having with grace 2 was about past sins and not current or future sins
being covered ? I'm sorry I though that's what you were pointing out to me and how I wasn't reading it in context? What were you saying to me about context ? I'm lost now

 

[Brother Chris]

This conversation I was having with grace 2 was about past sins and not current or future sins
being covered ? I'm sorry I though that's what you were pointing out to me and how I wasn't reading it in context? What were you saying to me about context ? I'm lost now

How can God forgive your current and future sins? He can't simply look over them. How does He forgive them?

 

[EmSw]

So, trying to pit Jesus against John, eh? My post was about what Jesus said to a rich young ruler. Different context completely from 1 Jn 2.

Pit Jesus against John? No way; they fit together perfectly.

John 3:16 was spoken to Nicodemus. So, according to you beliefs, it was a different context than speaking to us. But yet, you sure want it to speak to you.

Besides, Jesus' words are universal truths, and its underlying messages are for all.

This isn't about the Mosaic Law, which was what Jesus WAS talking about. So your comments here are like comparing apples to oranges.

Really? Let's read 1 John 2:3 again.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Of whom is John speaking when he says 'His'?

Perhaps you can tell us source of the commandments of which John is speaking.

I suggest reading my comments long and hard, so you can figure out WHY your posts are confused.

Sorry FG2, if one doesn't keep His (Jesus') commandments, John says he is a liar and doesn't have truth in him. I doubt anyone sees confusion in John's words.

Yes, said of believers. Your point?

If John's verse speaks of believers, and John said they are liars if they do not keep Jesus' commandments, please tell us where liars go according to Revelation 21:8 -

...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Do you see eternal security for believers who lie?

What in the world would lead one to the VERY WRONG view that I have suggested that I don't want to keep Jesus' commandments? I think this kind of statement only reveals just how badly my comments have been understood.

I asked which commandments with which you are having trouble keeping, and you replied all of them.

Right. Nothing about loss of salvation.

Oh, but John also says they are liars, and please tell us where LIARS end up.

<sigh> The commandments that Jesus was talking about are DIFFERENT than the commandments that John talked about. lol

How do you figure that? John was talking of 'HIS' commandments, and 'HIS' refers to Jesus.

Anyone who CAN doesn't need the blood of Christ. Apparently you view doesn't grasp that problem.

How is that? Jesus told us that if we keep the commandments, we will inherit eternal life. What is it about eternal life that doesn't involve salvation?

None of this was for salvation. So it's totally irrelevant to the discussion of eternal security.

Except those who don't keep these commandments are liars, and liars end up in the lake of fire. Also, those who do keep them, inherit eternal life. So I think it is very relevant.

 

[lori milne]

How can God forgive your current and future sins? He can't simply look over them. How does He forgive them?

When you have repentance
And turn from Your sin
Sanctification is a process that we can't take for granted or in vein even we have to run the race with endurance not justified sin.

I think the only difference in beliefs is striving hard with fear and trembling to live sin free as Paul said holding fast vs feeling you don't have to hold fast because your sins are covered.

repenting is works? No

Obeying the levitical & mosaic laws to be righteous
Is work based salvation.

Humbly yoUr sister in CHRIST

 

[EmSw]

How can God forgive your current and future sins? He can't simply look over them. How does He forgive them?

REPENTANCE.

Luke 24:47 -
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

 

[Brother Chris]

When you have repentance
And turn from Your sin
Sanctification is a process that we can't take for granted or in vein even we have to run the race with endurance not justified sin.

I think the only difference in beliefs is striving hard with fear and trembling to live sin free as Paul said holding fast vs feeling you don't have to hold fast because your sins are covered.

repenting is works? No

Obeying the levitical & mosaic laws to be righteous
Is work based salvation.

Humbly yoUr sister in CHRIST

Sorry, that's not how He forgives you. There is no forgiveness for any sin without the shedding of blood. Understand?

 

[lori milne]

Pit Jesus against John? No way; they fit together perfectly. John 3:16 was spoken to Nicodemus. So, according to you beliefs, it was a different context than speaking to us. But yet, you sure want it to speak to you. Besides, Jesus' words are universal truths, and its underlying messages are for all. Really? Let's read 1 John 2:3 again. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. Of whom is John speaking when he says 'His'? Perhaps you can tell us source of the commandments of which John is speaking. Sorry FG2, if one doesn't keep His (Jesus') commandments, John says he is a liar and doesn't have truth in him. I doubt anyone sees confusion in John's words. If John's verse speaks of believers, and John said they are liars if they do not keep Jesus' commandments, please tell us where liars go according to Revelation 21:8 - ...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Do you see eternal security for believers who lie? I asked which commandments with which you are having trouble keeping, and you replied all of them. Oh, but John also says they are liars, and please tell us where LIARS end up. How do you figure that? John was talking of 'HIS' commandments, and 'HIS' refers to Jesus. How is that? Jesus told us that if we keep the commandments, we will inherit eternal life. What is it about eternal life that doesn't involve salvation? Except those who don't keep these commandments are liars, and liars end up in the lake of fire. Also, those who do keep them, inherit eternal life. So I think it is very relevant.

Not to but in but I can't help but see both sides and the confusion that seems to come up for me as well.

Paul spoke about faith before works and vs works before faith.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if we have faith and Gods imputed righteousness doesn't it clearly say we want to keep all the laws.

Grace 2 is clearly in opposition to works before faith! / or work based salvation.
But grace 2 that's not going to take away what the bible says about going to hell if you don't obey the laws !
Either way your going to hell if you don't obey the laws! It's clearly in the bible!

The Jews tried work based salvation and couldn't do it!
the bible says it's easier or only possible with Faith and Gods imputed righteousness!
Abraham wasn't circumcised until after his faith because he wanted to.
Romans 4:1-8

 

[lori milne]

Sorry, that's not how He forgives you. There is no forgiveness for any sin without the shedding of blood. Understand?

That's with out saying
I'm sorry I didn't realize what you were really " saying?
Lol

I hold on to the word of God and
Romans 3:25 Is clear remission is for past sins

I am looking for something that says current or future sins are covered because a lot of people say it.

 

[lori milne]

REPENTANCE. Luke 24:47 - and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

I'm glad
I didn't miss read the question either
I was begging to feel silly
Great verse btw
Thanks

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good question NF. Jesus gave us the answer.

Matthew 22 -
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Notice ALL Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. Here is Strong's definition of hang -

Where in Matt 22 or any other passage did Jesus say to keep all the commandments of the Law in order to be saved????

That is the question.

Where is your answer?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
One eky to understanding Scripture is to know what the Greek words mean. In Matt 5:48, the word translated "perfect" is:
teleios

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Most likely, your understanding was that 'perfect' means to 'no longer sin'. Well, the Greek word certainly does NOT mean that.

Jesus NEVER said nor expected fallen humanity to be able to stop sinning. Even Paul struggled in his 2 natures; fallen and regenerated. Rom 6, 7 and Gal 3:16 are clear enough.

Which one of those definitions applies to God?

2,3,4. All things that no human can achieve to.

What is your point? Is there one here?