Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[EmSw]

If someone continually misrepresents someone else's views, and never corrects himself despite correct information given to him, will he go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

Do you believe all liars go to the lake of fire as Revelation states, or do you believe otherwise?

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe all liars go to the lake of fire as Revelation states, or do you believe otherwise?

I don't believe in your understanding of Revelation. Sinless perfectionism isn't taught in scripture. Romans 8:1, however....

 

[lori milne]

Feeling bad has NO effect in the Christian life. It is a change of mind that is key. One needs to know the Greek words to understand Scripture. Repent is NOT the same as regret. They are different.

That's what is being assumed not but it doesn't say that in scripture



The word for repent in Hebrew is teshuva
That is to repent from sin.
I get your idea of repent but I don't fully agree with the idea you've stated. I agree with what the word of God says about God knows your
Heart.
If you continue to sin after you stop feeling bad the first time or second God won't forgive you
That's a reprobate mind.


Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ([bless and do not curse]2 Corinthians‬ [bless and do not curse]13‬:[bless and do not curse]5‬ KJV)


Judas was remorse according to the Hebrew
And that is another was of being sorry.
Sorry wouldn't imply that he would want to continue in that sin.
Scripture speaks of regret and turning away.

David repented
Peter repented
Judas repented
They didn't continue in a sin they new would lead them away from God

If you feel bad 9/10 times the man will want to stop and God forgives
If you don't feel bad and continue your not forgiven your a reprobate
If you don't feel bad and stop God forgives you

The point is 9/10 feel bad because they no better and then they stop

God bless

 

[lori milne]

That's what is being assumed not but it doesn't say that in scripture The word for repent in Hebrew is teshuva That is to repent from sin. I get your idea of repent but I don't fully agree with the idea you've stated. I agree with what the word of God says about God knows your Heart. If you continue to sin after you stop feeling bad the first time or second God won't forgive you That's a reprobate mind. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ([bless and do not curse]2 Corinthians‬ [bless and do not curse]13‬:[bless and do not curse]5‬ KJV) Judas was remorse according to the Hebrew And that is another was of being sorry. Sorry wouldn't imply that he would want to continue in that sin. Scripture speaks of regret and turning away. David repented Peter repented Judas repented They didn't continue in a sin they new would lead them away from God If you feel bad 9/10 times the man will want to stop and God forgives If you don't feel bad and continue your not forgiven your a reprobate If you don't feel bad and stop God forgives you The point is 9/10 feel bad because they no better and then they stop God bless

Sorry for this messy verbiage

 

[lori milne]

Jesus was very clear in Matt 5 about the thoughts behind the overt act of sin. So your idea that thoughts are somehow "unintentional" is bogus. I've already shown that no one can make you angry. It's you yourself that allows others to make you angry. It's a choice. Getting angry at someone is your choice. Did Jesus get angry at all the unfair treatment He received? No. He asked His Father to forgive them. It's a choice. You're always talking about being perfect. So what's all this about "unintentional sin" thing? Jesus never sinned. So why are you trying to split hairs on intentional vs unintentional sins? Jesus was very clear about thoughts behind the overt acts. Those who have actually read Paul's epistles know what he said about himself. Rom 7 is a confession about it: v.15 - For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. v.17 - So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. v.19 - For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. v.21 - I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. v.23 - but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 1 Tim 1:15 - It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all. Paul wrote this in the present tense when he wrote "I am". He didn't write "I was…".

The sin we can clearly see are to be a choice in a mans life are stated continually in the bible
Out side of that James speaks of following sin when it comes in your mind
And flesh leading you when you hd no control
Paul speak of this as well uncontrollable sin

But in sure that you new the difference already I just didn't make a clear distinction


Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. ([bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]4-7, 17‬ KJV
)

The bible speaks of sins and names them like lust lie steal etc
But some times for me any ways I can understand what Paul was going through because pride or envy keeps in and you don't know it till something bad comes from it
That's what the sanctification processes helps you with and is what Paul went through as well I believe because he didn't have jesus like Peter and Mathew he was like us "!i believe any"

 

[Brother Chris]

What was the intention of Joe's heart? Actually no one knows what sins infest their hearts until they manifest themselves. If given the opportunity, would Joe have gone to the Lord and ask forgiveness? Would Joe have continued in that sin if he had lived?

God knew Joe's heart and what he would have done if he had the opportunity. It sounds like Joe would have realized his sin and repented of it.

Everyone who goes to heaven has sin in their hearts which the Light hasn't exposed yet. Until the Lord shows us those sins, how is repentance realized?

Now I will ask you NF, Bill, a reformed believer, knows he has a problem with lying. He does nothing to change this behavior, yet is staunch in his reformed beliefs. He believes his sins are paid in full and needs to do nothing about his lying. In fact, lying becomes more pronounced with each day.

When pressed about his lying, Bill shrugs it off now starts to commit adultery against his wife. He continues his adultery and lies to his wife about his faithfulness.

Will Bill go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

Sorry, what you are describing here is not a believer. God disciplines and corrects His children, so that they don't go on sinning just because they're under grace and all their sins are paid for. They have been born of God, and they will not continue to sin this way (1 John 3:9). Your scenarios are not biblical.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'm not teAching I'm warning and opening the thread for debate! Sorry if you feel offended
But I'm open to learning as well and truly on my own search for understanding

You started the OP with what could have been opening a thread for debate and learning.

But you didn't even end the OP before launching into your teaching agenda.

You are indeed teaching. One need only to count the percentage of posts that are from you to see that.

Every time one posts on sites like this they are teaching. When you fill a thread to overflowing with teaching that doesn't consider the entire Word of God the judgment that will come becomes a concern to any brother in Christ.

Your pursuing of an agenda on this thread has gone way beyond a search for truth. You are not searching you are teaching.

Your teaching is no more offensive than any of the slanted doctrine I find on this site.

This is just a warning to a sister to consider carefully what you do. If I have repeated it from before it is only out of concern.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There are multiple views of reformation. I don't think I've misrepresented anyone. If what I wrote isn't your view, then don't be offended. There are plenty of different reformed beliefs to go around for everybody.

I put up a scenario and wasn't pointing out anyone in particular. If this doesn't represent you, I would appreciate it if you would just let it slide. Thank you.

Your anti Reformed agenda is apparent to all and in particular to the Lord who is reading right along with us.

You do misrepresent Reformed teaching as I have challenged you on many times.

You continue in your sin. I hope you don't step off the curb and get hit by a car before you change your ways.

Of course if I were pretty sure that you are saved my concern would be because of your upcoming Judgment Seat of Christ appointment.

Since I believe your particular agenda against Reformed in general and OSAS in particular has long ago crossed over into teaching a gospel of works - my concern for your future is for much more than "just" the Judgment Seat.

 

[lori milne]

Your anti Reformed agenda is apparent to all and in particular to the Lord who is reading right along with us. You do misrepresent Reformed teaching as I have challenged you on many times. You continue in your sin. I hope you don't step off the curb and get hit by a car before you change your ways. Of course if I were pretty sure that you are saved my concern would be because of your upcoming Judgment Seat of Christ appointment. Since I believe your particular agenda against Reformed in general and OSAS in particular has long ago crossed over into teaching a gospel of works - my concern for your future is for much more than "just" the Judgment Seat.

Are you saying if he dies after stepping off the curb and getting hit by a car " he will go to hell ?

 

[nobdysfool]

Are you saying if he dies after stepping off the curb and getting hit by a car " he will go to hell ?

When are you going to stop dancing around, and answer the question I asked in the scenario that I posted? You have done everything but answer the question.

Could it be that you can't?

Instead, you'd rather try to insert yourself into a conversation that is not directed at you, to try and disrupt it, and using a twisted form of the question I asked that you won't answer.

You have revealed a lot about just how unbiblical your view is by doing so. You've been shown the Truth, and you reject it. That's sad...

 

[lori milne]

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities
Acts‬ [bless and do not curse]3:25-26‬

 

[EmSw]

Your anti Reformed agenda is apparent to all and in particular to the Lord who is reading right along with us.

Can I not believe as I choose? Or, if I choose to believe differently than you, does that thrust me into condemnation? Even if you consider me to be an enemy, Jesus says to love me.

You do misrepresent Reformed teaching as I have challenged you on many times.

I gave scripture to back up my claims, you gave very little, if any.

You continue in your sin. I hope you don't step off the curb and get hit by a car before you change your ways.

Really? And when did you get a look into my heart to make such a claim?

If a car hits me, I am more than prepared for the other side.

Of course if I were pretty sure that you are saved my concern would be because of your upcoming Judgment Seat of Christ appointment.

So, it's people who believe as you who are saved. I guess you believe the Reformed have the market on salvation.

Since I believe your particular agenda against Reformed in general and OSAS in particular has long ago crossed over into teaching a gospel of works - my concern for your future is for much more than "just" the Judgment Seat.

Ezekiel 18:21 -
But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

John 5 -
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Can you give me a good reason why I should not believe the truth of God's words?

 

[EmSw]

Sorry, what you are describing here is not a believer. God disciplines and corrects His children, so that they don't go on sinning just because they're under grace and all their sins are paid for. They have been born of God, and they will not continue to sin this way (1 John 3:9). Your scenarios are not biblical.

So, it's not just a person who says they are saved; it is actually one who does something, that is, lay aside all filthiness and cast away all their transgressions.

Wow, why did I not see this before?

 

[EmSw]

Instead, you'd rather try to insert yourself into a conversation that is not directed at you, to try and disrupt it, and using a twisted form of the question I asked that you won't answer.

The conversation was directed at me, and I welcome anything she has to say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then we can say, though Jesus spoke to the young ruler, His words are for humanity. You can't have it the way you would prefer FG2.

His words were NOT for humanity. They were for the RYR.

Why wasn't it the Mosaic law? Jesus told us the following in Matthew 22

37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

ALL the law and prophets are summed in these two commandments Jesus gave. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets.

Since Jesus is the Truth, how can one believe and be saved without Jesus?

The commandments of Jesus are found in the NT. Paul referred to them as the "mind of Christ" per 1 Cor 2:16. Apparently your view is to follow the Mosaic Law. That would mean you're a proselyte of Judaism.

But Paul clarified the purpose of the Law: Gal 3:24.

Besides, these believers have no truth because they do not keep His commandments; they are liars. They don't even know Jesus. Can one be saved without knowing Jesus?

There are many truths found in Scripture. Yes, Jesus IS truth. But everything He said and commanded is also truth. One can be saved yet be extremely ignorant of truth. Knowing nearly nothing of what Jesus commanded. That's what I'm talking about.

Just look around to see how many conflicting theologies there are today. Are they all truth? Of course not. There's a lot of ignorance even in Christianity.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Within this group, we have subsets. The fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars are a subset of the group. Just because one is a murderer, does not mean he whoremonger, just as if one is a liar, does not mean he is unbelieving.

So, those who are "fearful" will go to hell, huh? And anyone who has ever lied as well? That's simply ridiculous. It's unbelievers who go to hell. And because they don't possess eternal life. Rev 22:15 says as much.

Going to hell is based on unbelief. John 3:18, 36 say so.
v.18 - “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

v.36 - “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believes not) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

In fact, a believer can be within any subset, and if he continues as such, he will have his part in the lake of fire.

John 3:18 and 36 refute your view.

Of course it's about sin; you dismiss sin so easily.

Hardly. But I understand what Jesus did to it. Unlike others.

I say ALL liars who do not overcome, are not written in the book of life.

There is no verse that says that. It is simply a made up statement. Without any validity.

That's why we are admonished to cast away all iniquities, to lay aside all filthiness, to flee sin, and cleanse our hearts. Many do not give these truths a second thought. The only way to not commit adultery is to eradicate the source - an unclean heart

Please describe how one eradicates an unclean heart. Is that something man does? And what verse says this?

So yes, a man can cleanse his filthy heart so God can create a new heart within him.

I see. So, God must wait for the person to cleanse his own filthy heart before can create a new heart within him. This just smacks of a works based salvation system. No one can clean themself up. That's what God does for us.

Until a man cleanses his heart, it will be filled with sinful thoughts.

The new heart comes from God, not from ourselves.

Your view has no support from Scripture.

No need to worry FG2, I am a sinner.

Then, according to your own view, youse gots troubles.

Yes, sin abides in me, but when the Light reveals it, I can either remove it or be choose to be enslaved to it.

None of which has anything to do with loss of salvation.

Actually my view is salvation by obedience.

That is not Biblical. The Biblical view is salvation by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 says exactly that!!

Along with these verses:

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

And these, regarding eternal life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

None of these verses say anything about works. They are all about faith only.

 

[lori milne]

When are you going to stop dancing around, and answer the question I asked in the scenario that I posted? You have done everything but answer the question. Could it be that you can't? Instead, you'd rather try to insert yourself into a conversation that is not directed at you, to try and disrupt it, and using a twisted form of the question I asked that you won't answer. You have revealed a lot about just how unbiblical your view is by doing so. You've been shown the Truth, and you reject it. That's sad...

Two people have answer the question the same way "only God can judge him . You just didn't like it from me I guess And im sorry for what ever i may have said that hardened your heart against me

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Feeling bad has NO effect in the Christian life. It is a change of mind that is key. One needs to know the Greek words to understand Scripture. Repent is NOT the same as regret. They are different."

That's what is being assumed not but it doesn't say that in scripture

Actually, it is your view that is not found anywhere in Scripture. I provided the 2 different words that are trnanslated "repent" and one really means 'regret'. But one is free to reject this truth.

The word for repent in Hebrew is teshuva
That is to repent from sin.

The NT wasn't written in Hebrew, so this is not relevant. Please define what is meant by "repent" in your view. Thanks.

I get your idea of repent but I don't fully agree with the idea you've stated. I agree with what the word of God says about God knows your
Heart.
If you continue to sin after you stop feeling bad the first time or second God won't forgive you
That's a reprobate mind.

Please show me where the Bible tells us to feel bad. It's not in Scripture. The Bible does tell us what to do with our sin. We are to confess it. And only when we do that, God cleanses us from sin and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. So says 1 Jn 1:9.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? ([bless and do not curse]2 Corinthians‬ [bless and do not curse]13‬:[bless and do not curse]5‬ KJV)

What do you think Paul means by "examining" ourselves?

Judas was remorse according to the Hebrew
And that is another was of being sorry.

No one gets saved by being sorry.

David repented
Peter repented

Neither of these guys felt sorry. They changed their minds, as the Greek word means.

Judas repented

Yeah, he felt sorry all the way to hell.

If you feel bad 9/10 times the man will want to stop and God forgives
If you don't feel bad and continue your not forgiven your a reprobate
If you don't feel bad and stop God forgives you

Please support each of these statements with Scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are you saying if he dies after stepping off the curb and getting hit by a car " he will go to hell ?

I would never claim to know if any person was saved or not saved. But I might have my suspicions and concerns based on what they believed and taught.

I have not done so with EmSw either. I can't know his heart - only what he teaches openly for all to see.

I said I was concerned for his salvation because of the works based gospel that he teaches. The same goes for you.

Are you familiar with the Judgment Seat of Christ judgment vs. the Great White Throne judgment?

Perhaps your not understanding the concept of the burning off of wood, hay, and stubble vs. the Lake of Fire is a problem for you when it comes to the understanding of salvation.

Do you understand the difference?

 

[nobdysfool]

Two people have answer the question the same way "only God can judge him .

Then you don't want to own up to your view, when it comes down to it. It's all fire and brimstone until someone asks you a specific question, and then suddenly it's all on God. Your so-called "answer" is a wishy-washy cop-out, IMHO.

You just didn't like it from me I guess And im sorry for what ever i may have said that hardened your heart against me

Oh good grief! Don't play the martyr here. My heart is not hardened toward you, so please stop assuming things you cannot possibly know. I simply was showing where your view falls short, and you made my point for me, by dodging around, and saying anything but an actual answer to my question. If you had the courage of your convictions, you would have answered it directly.

 

[Brother Chris]

Could a moderator please rename this thread and call it:

Refuting OSAS in the name of works and self-righteousness

Because that's all this thread really is about.