Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[FreeGrace2]

I believe in the eternal security of the believer as well. But that only applies to true believers, and it does not apply to unsaved professing believers. By definition, they are still unbelievers.

I agree. Those who have never believed are not saved, regardless of what they profess. But there is a problem with looking to one's lifestyle to determine whether one is saved or not. The Bible doesn't support this. Matt 7:15-20 is about false teachers. We CAN know who is a false teacher by their fruit, but we cannot apply that to believers.

The best reason for that is found in James 3:8-10; "8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it WE bless our Lord and Father, and with it WE curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. "

This passage is to believers, as noted by James' use of "we".

In the book of Lamentations or Ecclesiastes it appears that Solomon repented of his disobedience towards God. So based on that, I'd say he is in heaven.

He is in heaven because he was a believer, as was his father David. Not because he repented of disobedience. We are saved by grace through faith, nt through repentance.

Also, 1 Kings 11 reveals that because of his old age rebellion, God tore the kingdom away from him. There is no evidence in that summary passage of Solomon that he recovered from his rebellion in old age.

All OT saints are in heaven, but some of them were not as holy as they should have been. Remember, they didn't have the knowledge and revelation that NT saints have.

Right. Even king Saul is in heaven. And he certainly wasn't even close to holy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Define salvation.

Luke 3:6 - And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

From Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

sōtērion G4992

1) saving, bringing salvation
2) he who embodies this salvation, or through whom God is about to achieve it
3) the hope of (future) salvation

The word is taken from G4991:

sōtēria

1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
1a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
1b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1b1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

So, basically, the word means "deliverance from, preservation from, safety from" some threat or danger.

As applied eternally, believers are saved/delivered/preserved from the lake of fire.

As applied temporally (during this life), believers are saved/delivered/preserved from some specific threats or dangers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation is used in the bible differently then the way you are using it.
Is what I meant

Please explain HOW the word is used "differently" in the Bible than how I am using it. Thank you.

Making a statement or charge without any evidence carries no weight.

If I am in error about something, please don't just state that I am wrong. Explain HOW I am. As I have done with your posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life and salvation are never explained in the bible to mean the same thing.

If they are different things, please explain HOW they are different.

I fully grasp the difference in the words, yet my point, which it seems was missed completely, is that they go together.

iow, the one who has salvation has eternal life. The one who doesn't have salvation does not have eternal life.

A person cannot have one without the other. Can a saved person NOT have eternal life? Impossible. Also, can a person who has etenal life NOT be saved? Also impossible.

That was my point.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, because eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

Eternal life is an inheritance, just as Jesus said in Matthew 19 -

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Notice when the inheritance comes - "...in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of glory...and the disciples are judging the twelve tribes of Israel..."

Believers.

Then it is believers who will not inherit the kingdom of God, if they continue to be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, and so forth.

No. But note that inheriting the kingdom is not the same as entering the kingdom. To inherit the kingdom refers to reward in the kingdom.

Rewards are given to those who 'do' something worthy of the reward. Strong's puts it this way - "dues paid for work".

Above, I showed you where Jesus said 'inherit eternal life'. So if eternal life is a reward, then it is 'dues paid for work'.

Now I will ask you, what is the difference of inheriting life and entering life?

I just gave you eternal life is inherited above, and now I give you this -

Matthew 19:17 -
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

What is the difference?

The mistake here is that this view either ignores or forgets what Christ has already done for EVERY believer; paid the full price for all their sins, and by their belief in Christ, God credits righteousness to them.

What is the 'full' price for all sins?

No human being is able to "cleanse himself" in order to enter the kingdom. Please consider what that means. If he could, then people could enter the kingdom on their own, by cleansing themselves.

Wow, this is just what the Bible says, yet here, you say the opposite. Let's read it again -

2 Corinthians 7:1 -
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

What part of 'let us cleanse ourselves' is hard to understand?

The gospel's whole message is that Christ died on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind SO THAT those who believe in Him are saved. Christ cleanses us. Not ourselves.

I'm not saying Christ doesn't cleanse us; I am saying it is a two-way street. You do you part, He does His.

Here are Jesus' words -

Matthew 23 -
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Your question was quite telling as to your mistaken view of how one is saved.

Here is the foundation of salvation -

Matthew 1:21 -
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

First and foremost, sin has to be dealt with inside the heart of man. It is sin which ultimately sends man to hell. If sin isn't dealt with, it will overcome man and defeat him.

Jesus Himself gave us the way we overcome sin and its consequences.

Luke 24:46-48 -
46 Then He said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This was days after Jesus died and rose from the grave. If sins were dealt with on the cross, then these words would be useless. Instead, Jesus said that 'repentance and remission of sins' should be preached.

Why would repentance and remission of sins be necessary if sins were paid for on the cross?

Here is Strong's definition of remission -

release from bondage or imprisonment
forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed)
remission of the penalty

Release of sins, pardon of sins, and remission of the penalty for sins comes after one genuinely repents, not on the cross. It is is when one is pardoned and released of his sins that is he saved from them. This is true salvation.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not by ourselves. Salvation is a gift from God. Not of works, lest anyone should brag. Eph 2:8,9

Eternal life is inherited, thus these Ephesians passages are only part of salvation from our sins. Jesus gave us the full plan of salvation, and that is in effect only with repentance.

 

[EmSw]

If they are different things, please explain HOW they are different.

I fully grasp the difference in the words, yet my point, which it seems was missed completely, is that they go together.

iow, the one who has salvation has eternal life. The one who doesn't have salvation does not have eternal life.

A person cannot have one without the other. Can a saved person NOT have eternal life? Impossible. Also, can a person who has etenal life NOT be saved? Also impossible.

That was my point.

Eternal life is inherited, salvation is not.

Salvation is pardon, forgiveness, and release from sin through repentance.
Eternal life is the inheritance for those who repent and obey the commandments.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is an inheritance, just as Jesus said in Matthew 19 -
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Notice when the inheritance comes - "...in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of glory...and the disciples are judging the twelve tribes of Israel…"

I believe Jesus was speaking of rewards. Just as Rom 8:17b and 2 Tim 2:12 indicate. Furthermore, in Matt 19, the issue is about obedience and service. And the gift of eternal life comes through believing, as Jn 6:40 and a host of other verses plainly say.

Then it is believers who will not inherit the kingdom of God, if they continue to be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, and so forth.

Again, this speaks to loss of reward in the kingdom. They will have no inheritance in the kingdom. This is not about entering the kingdom.

Rewards are given to those who 'do' something worthy of the reward. Strong's puts it this way - "dues paid for work".

Yep, like receiving an inheritance.

Above, I showed you where Jesus said 'inherit eternal life'. So if eternal life is a reward, then it is 'dues paid for work'.

It's about reward.

Now I will ask you, what is the difference of inheriting life and entering life?

I've explained what inheriting life means, and "entering life" refers to entering eternity.

What is the 'full' price for all sins?

Death. Rom 6:23

I said this:
"No human being is able to "cleanse himself" in order to enter the kingdom. Please consider what that means. If he could, then people could enter the kingdom on their own, by cleansing themselves."

Wow, this is just what the Bible says, yet here, you say the opposite. Let's read it again -

2 Corinthians 7:1 -
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

My point was completely missed. No one cleanses themselves TO ENTER THE KINGDOM. Paul wasn't talking about cldansing oneself in order to enter the kingdom. btw, how does one fulfill what Paul is commanding here? I'll give a hint: 1 Jn 1:9.

What part of 'let us cleanse ourselves' is hard to understand?

No part. It's all very clear. We need to confess our sins and God cleanses us of our sins, and all unrighteousness. If we don't confess, we will not be cleansed.

The better question is this: why are believers to confess their sins? For what?

I'm not saying Christ doesn't cleanse us; I am saying it is a two-way street. You do you part, He does His.

All we can do is confess our sins.

First and foremost, sin has to be dealt with inside the heart of man.
It is sin which ultimately sends man to hell. If sin isn't dealt with, it will overcome man and defeat him.

No, Jesus paid for all sin. What sends people to hell is that they don't possess eternal life. Rev 20:15 says so.

Jesus Himself gave us the way we overcome sin and its consequences.

Luke 24:46-48 -
46 Then He said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This was days after Jesus died and rose from the grave. If sins were dealt with on the cross, then these words would be useless. Instead, Jesus said that 'repentance and remission of sins' should be preached.

Why would repentance and remission of sins be necessary if sins were paid for on the cross?

Let's look at your own source:

Here is Strong's definition of remission -

release from bondage or imprisonment
forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed)
remission of the penalty

There it is: forgiveness. How is one forgiven? Or on what basis is one forgiven? Acts 10:43 tells us. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Release of sins, pardon of sins, and remission of the penalty for sins comes after one genuinely repents, not on the cross.

Christ paid for the sins on the cross, and forgives those who believe in Him.

btw, His payment for sin results in purchasing the free gift of eternal life which He freely gives to those who believe.

It is is when one is pardoned and released of his sins that is he saved from them. This is true salvation.

Yep. Saved by grace through faith.

Eternal life is inherited

No, it is a gift received by faith. John 6:40 However, once faith, the believer receives the right to be a child of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26). It is by that relationship that the believer "inherits" eternal life. All God's children receive eternal life.

thus these Ephesians passages are only part of salvation from our sins. Jesus gave us the full plan of salvation, and that is in effect only with repentance.

If by "repentance" you mean to "turn from sin", that introduces works to our salvation, which I reject.

The Greek word means "change of mind" which is absolutely necessary for one to place their faith in Christ in the first place.

 

[lori milne]

I believe Jesus was speaking of rewards. Just as Rom 8:17b and 2 Tim 2:12 indicate. Furthermore, in Matt 19, the issue is about obedience and service. And the gift of eternal life comes through believing, as Jn 6:40 and a host of other verses plainly say. Again, this speaks to loss of reward in the kingdom. They will have no inheritance in the kingdom. This is not about entering the kingdom. Yep, like receiving an inheritance. It's about reward. I've explained what inheriting life means, and "entering life" refers to entering eternity. Death. Rom 6:23 I said this: "No human being is able to "cleanse himself" in order to enter the kingdom. Please consider what that means. If he could, then people could enter the kingdom on their own, by cleansing themselves." My point was completely missed. No one cleanses themselves TO ENTER THE KINGDOM. Paul wasn't talking about cldansing oneself in order to enter the kingdom. btw, how does one fulfill what Paul is commanding here? I'll give a hint: 1 Jn 1:9. No part. It's all very clear. We need to confess our sins and God cleanses us of our sins, and all unrighteousness. If we don't confess, we will not be cleansed. The better question is this: why are believers to confess their sins? For what? All we can do is confess our sins. No, Jesus paid for all sin. What sends people to hell is that they don't possess eternal life. Rev 20:15 says so. Let's look at your own source: There it is: forgiveness. How is one forgiven? Or on what basis is one forgiven? Acts 10:43 tells us. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Christ paid for the sins on the cross, and forgives those who believe in Him. btw, His payment for sin results in purchasing the free gift of eternal life which He freely gives to those who believe. Yep. Saved by grace through faith. No, it is a gift received by faith. John 6:40 However, once faith, the believer receives the right to be a child of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26). It is by that relationship that the believer "inherits" eternal life. All God's children receive eternal life. If by "repentance" you mean to "turn from sin", that introduces works to our salvation, which I reject. The Greek word means "change of mind" which is absolutely necessary for one to place their faith in Christ in the first place.

Works come after righteousness through faith but you can er from the Faith ( dies that mean you'd fallen away? No ) just temptation got you at a week moment! I and the bible speaks clearly about the remission of sin through repented sin. Repent means change of mind and sorrow for sin Then you Want to stop! You confess and stop sinning. Arron in lav confessed all the sins before the blood not after you cant keep sinning! Romans 3:25
Remission is for past sins

Mark 1:4
Repentance for remission
It was and is required you just not want to sin to be forgiven you must choose I not sin like Adam and Eve clearly didn't choose wisely Many are closed but few have the true FAITH to hold fast to not ERR
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (LIFE IS NOT DEATH so this means he is not going to hell)
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren
James‬ 1 12, 14-16‬ KJV

Amen Love and pure joy
Kindness and true faith

 

[Brother Chris]

Lori, could you please stop quoting scripture with the brackets and "bless and do not curse." I don't know why you're doing that.

[bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]1‬:[bless and do not curse]12, 14-16‬ KJV

 

[FreeGrace2]

Repent means change of mind and sorrow for sin

Wrong. 'Repent' doesn't mean sorrow for sin. That's a different word than the verses you've been using.

Research the Greek words "metanoia" and "metamellomai". Both are generally translated 'repent'.

Heaven is not gained by sorrow for sin or anything else. Heaven is gained by faith in Christ. And to believe in Christ for eternal life (salvation) one MUST CHANGE THEIR MIND about some things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lori, could you please stop quoting scripture with the brackets and "bless and do not curse." I don't know why you're doing that.

[bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]1‬:[bless and do not curse]12, 14-16‬ KJV

Unfortunately, that may be a feature of this forum. It happens to me a lot, and I always go back and edit them out. I copy and paste from a software program for speed, and some of the verses include that pesky phrase.

We all need to edit our own posts, to correct typos, etc. It's really difficult to follow the posts of those who don't do that.

 

[lori milne]

Wrong. 'Repent' doesn't mean sorrow for sin. That's a different word than the verses you've been using. Research the Greek words "metanoia" and "metamellomai". Both are generally translated 'repent'. Heaven is not gained by sorrow for sin or anything else. Heaven is gained by faith in Christ. And to believe in Christ for eternal life (salvation) one MUST CHANGE THEIR MIND about some things.

Mark 1:4
The repent I used in Hebrew

Yochanan came with a mikveh mayim in the midbar, preaching a tevilah of teshuva for the selichat avon
Markos 1;4‬
OJB

Teshuva
The word Teshuvah is usually translated as repentance. In fact, there is a well known prayer recited on the High Holy Days that Teshuvah, Tefillah, and Tzedakah, translated as “Repentance,”

Classically, Teshuvah is comprised of three ingredients: regret of misdeed, decision to change, and verbal expression of one’s sins. Technically, whenever one sins, one is mandated to do Teshuvah. However, the Ten Days of Teshuvah between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are specifically designated for Teshuvah, when the gates of prayer and repentance are more open than at any other time during the cyclical Jewish year.

 

[lori milne]

Mark 1:4 The repent I used in Hebrew Yochanan came with a mikveh mayim in the midbar, preaching a tevilah of teshuva for the selichat avon Markos 1;4‬ OJB Teshuva The word Teshuvah is usually translated as repentance. In fact, there is a well known prayer recited on the High Holy Days that Teshuvah, Tefillah, and Tzedakah, translated as “Repentance,” Classically, Teshuvah is comprised of three ingredients: regret of misdeed, decision to change, and verbal expression of one’s sins. Technically, whenever one sins, one is mandated to do Teshuvah. However, the Ten Days of Teshuvah between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are specifically designated for Teshuvah, when the gates of prayer and repentance are more open than at any other time during the cyclical Jewish year.

It was originally in Hebrew then translated to Greek
So I'm using the Hebrew def
I didn't realize you were talking about the Greek translation lol
I get your translation now but truly its like a willing turn from sin your hart changes your actions. In a nut shell anyways

 

[nobdysfool]

Remission is for past sins

Remission is for ALL sins, Lori. Why the artificial distinction? Did Jesus die for all of your sins, even the ones that you have, as yet, not committed? You better hope He did!

Keep in mind that when He was on the cross, you were at that time, future. Your sins were in the future. He died for future sins, too. He died for your sins before you even existed, and before you ever committed a sin. ALL of those sins were dealt with on the Cross.

This idea that your past sins were forgiven, but any future sins require something extra on your part to be forgiven is unbiblical. It is self-centered, works-based salvation, adding to the work of Christ.

You are not saved because of anything you do, what you do in Christ is because you are saved.

 

[lori milne]

Remission is for ALL sins, Lori. Why the artificial distinction? Did Jesus die for all of your sins, even the ones that you have, as yet, not committed? You better hope He did! Keep in mind that when He was on the cross, you were at that time, future. Your sins were in the future. He died for future sins, too. He died for your sins before you even existed, and before you ever committed a sin. ALL of those sins were dealt with on the Cross. This idea that your past sins were forgiven, but any future sins require something extra on your part to be forgiven is unbiblical. It is self-centered, works-based salvation, adding to the work of Christ. You are not saved because of anything you do, what you do in Christ is because you are saved.

Romans 3:25
Is the only place that speaks of what remission Covers in regards to past or future sins and it doesn't says what seems everyone has heard"
Current or future!

You won't find remission for current or future sins any ware in the bible.
It also speaks of confession before the forgiveness in the OT it's the same and won't change because jesus said nothing has been removed from the law or word for that matter.


Hope you see ware I get that "idea" from now the bible
Amen

 

[lori milne]

Romans 3:25 Is the only place that speaks of what remission Covers in regards to past or future sins and it doesn't says what seems everyone has heard" Current or future! You won't find remission for current or future sins any ware in the bible. It also speaks of confession before the forgiveness in the OT it's the same and won't change because jesus said nothing has been removed from the law or word for that matter. Hope you see ware I get that "idea" from now the bible Amen

And yes all but after their behind you and repented from or confessed

 

[nobdysfool]

Romans 3:25
Is the only place that speaks of what remission Covers in regards to past or future sins and it doesn't says what seems everyone has heard"
Current or future!

Building doctrine on only one verse is dangerous and bound to error.

You won't find remission for current or future sins any ware in the bible.
It also speaks of confession before the forgiveness in the OT it's the same and won't change because jesus said nothing has been removed from the law or word for that matter.


Hope you see ware I get that "idea" from now the bible
Amen

if there is no remission for current or future sins, then we are, as Paul said, "Of all men the most to be pitied".

Jesus' death on the cross was for ALL sins, or it wasn't for any. What you're trying to do is add another layer of man-centered activity in order to gain forgiveness of sins, because deep down, you don't believe that what Christ did was enough. You think you must add something to His Work in order to "feel" as though you've earned His Forgiveness. Usually that means requirements that every single sin must be consciously repented of (no one's memory is that good), and there must be some sort of penance in addition to the repentance to make it "stick". You're stuck in a works-based mindset, and it is robbing you of what you have in Christ, by faith. You don't understand what He did, and what it accomplished.

Stop working, and trust in the finished work of Christ! He is more than sufficient!

 

[Brother Chris]

Romans 3:25
Is the only place that speaks of what remission Covers in regards to past or future sins and it doesn't says what seems everyone has heard"
Current or future!

You won't find remission for current or future sins any ware in the bible.
It also speaks of confession before the forgiveness in the OT it's the same and won't change because jesus said nothing has been removed from the law or word for that matter.


Hope you see ware I get that "idea" from now the bible
Amen

All sins, past, present and future were paid for at the cross for everyone who will ever be saved. Jesus Christ is not going to come down to earth again and die for your future sins. The only way God can forgive any sin, past, present or future, is if that sin has been atoned for by the shedding of blood, in this case Christ's blood. Read Hebrews 10:12,

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Please stop this self-righteous and work-based salvation attitude.

 

[lori milne]

All sins, past, present and future were paid for at the cross for everyone who will ever be saved. Jesus Christ is not going to come down to earth again and die for your future sins. The only way God can forgive any sin, past, present or future, is if that sin has been atoned for by the shedding of blood, in this case Christ's blood. Read Hebrews 10:12, but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, Please stop this self-righteous and work-based salvation attitude.

It's not self righteousness its the way your seeing it .
We are saying. The same thing except
For 1 difference
My view is when you sin then it won't be forgiven unless you have a retentive hart and turn from your sin .
You say you can sin and not have no accountability for sin because it's covered.

The bible says sin no more
And bad fruit doesn't come from a good tree.

I see sin for what it is filth and pain so I don't choose to sin!
I have unintentional sin like when I stub my toe but my faith is growing and maybe one day when I stub my toe I'll say amen lol
No one in the bible lived as sinners covered by the blood with out repenting No One. They may have struggled but sacrificing the flesh is a struggle some times

 

[lori milne]

All sins, past, present and future were paid for at the cross for everyone who will ever be saved. Jesus Christ is not going to come down to earth again and die for your future sins. The only way God can forgive any sin, past, present or future, is if that sin has been atoned for by the shedding of blood, in this case Christ's blood. Read Hebrews 10:12, but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, Please stop this self-righteous and work-based salvation attitude.

Btw faith gives you righteousness which then produced works
Romans chapters 3-4
Gods righteousness is imputed in you when you truly believe / have Faith