Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[Brother Chris]

This thread should be titled, "Refuting OSAS in the name of pride and self-works," because that's all I'm reading from those who deny God's power to save to the uttermost forever.

 

[nobdysfool]

Why does one still choose to sin if it is an act of the will?

You do realize that your question makes absolutely no sense?

Does one strive against the Spirit so he may choose to sin?

You make it sound like choice is something more than just deciding to do (or not do) something. You're trying to create a problem where it doesn't exist.

Since Zanting chooses to not willfully sin in the eyes of God, why not encourage him is this endeavor, instead of making light of it?

I'm all for people doing that. However, when one blows a trumpet about it, it becomes rather Pharisaical. Don't tell others you are doing it, just do it.

In light of Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 7:1, this endeavor is commendable of Zanting.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I am wondering how many here cleanse themselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

Not your call to make.

 

[nobdysfool]

Free Grace 2, I see that we are in agreement on the subject of willful sin, and the error that is being promoted in this thread. Amazing!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace 2, I see that we are in agreement on the subject of willful sin, and the error that is being promoted in this thread. Amazing!

Truly!

 

[Zanting]

That is precisely what you posted.



And who is arguing with that?



Last time I checked, sin is sin. Where is the line? Sin is an act of the will, ultimately. All sin is willful.



Well, aren't you just a paragon of virtue? Luke 18:11-14

Quite frankly, all I see it what you write is perspective error on your part. You look for things that simply aren't there. And you read things into what is presented.

But like I said before, your perspective is as you choose it to be. I have stated what OSAS believers have said. That's all. So it seems there are varying opinions of what OASA means even among those who are OSAS believers.

And I will agree to disagree with you on the difference between willful sin and stumbling in your walk.

God Bless you

 

[Brother Chris]

Quite frankly, all I see it what you write is perspective error on your part. You look for things that simply aren't there. And you read things into what is presented.

But like I said before, your perspective is as you choose it to be. I have stated what OSAS believers have said. That's all. So it seems there are varying opinions of what OASA means even among those who are OSAS believers.

And I will agree to disagree with you on the difference between willful sin and stumbling in your walk.

God Bless you

Yes. Those who deny OSAS, are applying OSAS to the wrong group. OSAS applies to every born again Christian, that has been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are a new creation who no longer walk in disobedience to God, but walk in obedience to Him. They no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness. They love other Christians, they persevere and endure because God causes them to do so. Do not apply OSAS to any professing Christian who is not saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have stated what OSAS believers have said. That's all. So it seems there are varying opinions of what OASA means even among those who are OSAS believers.

Of course there will be variations of all views, including the loss of salvation view. Particularly, how one might lose it.

However, the whole point is that the concept of loss of salvation is simply not stated in Scripture.

What "OSAS believers" claim isn't important. It is what the Word claims that is of utmost importance.

 

[EmSw]

You do realize that your question makes absolutely no sense?

Why can't you answer why people choose to sin? Does a saved person continually choose to sin?

You make it sound like choice is something more than just deciding to do (or not do) something. You're trying to create a problem where it doesn't exist.

Does a person freely choose to sin? If they choose to sin, is it disobedience or not?

I'm all for people doing that. However, when one blows a trumpet about it, it becomes rather Pharisaical. Don't tell others you are doing it, just do it.

I don't think a trumpet was blown; I didn't hear any boasting.

How does one tell if someone is saved or not?

Not your call to make.

I didn't make a call, just asked a question.

What is the destination of a person who does not cleanse themselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit? Is the kingdom filled with such people?

Matthew 13 -
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I ask, if a person embraces and holds onto the filthiness of the flesh and spirit, will he (Christian or not) enter the kingdom?

1 Corinthians 6 -
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

To whom are these verses written?

Will a saved person who is fornicator, idolater, and so forth inherit the kingdom?

How will he enter the kingdom unless he cleanses himself of the filthiness of his flesh and spirit?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes. Those who deny OSAS, are applying OSAS to the wrong group. OSAS applies to every born again Christian, that has been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are a new creation who no longer walk in disobedience to God, but walk in obedience to Him. They no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness. They love other Christians, they persevere and endure because God causes them to do so. Do not apply OSAS to any professing Christian who is not saved.

I strongly believe in eternal security. What is your view of King Solomon, whose life is summarized in 1 Kings 11?

Esp v.4: "For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods;"

As a result of that, v.9-11 - 9 Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.

Is Solomon in heaven or not?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I ask, if a person embraces and holds onto the filthiness of the flesh and spirit, will he (Christian or not) enter the kingdom?

Yes, because eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

1 Corinthians 6 -
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

To whom are these verses written?

Believers.

Will a saved person who is fornicator, idolater, and so forth inherit the kingdom?

No. But note that inheriting the kingdom is not the same as entering the kingdom. To inherit the kingdom refers to reward in the kingdom.

How will he enter the kingdom unless he cleanses himself of the filthiness of his flesh and spirit?

The mistake here is that this view either ignores or forgets what Christ has already done for EVERY believer; paid the full price for all their sins, and by their belief in Christ, God credits righteousness to them.

No human being is able to "cleanse himself" in order to enter the kingdom. Please consider what that means. If he could, then people could enter the kingdom on their own, by cleansing themselves.

The gospel's whole message is that Christ died on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind SO THAT those who believe in Him are saved. Christ cleanses us. Not ourselves.

Your question was quite telling as to your mistaken view of how one is saved.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not by ourselves. Salvation is a gift from God. Not of works, lest anyone should brag. Eph 2:8,9

 

[EmSw]

OSAS applies to every born again Christian, that has been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are a new creation who no longer walk in disobedience to God, but walk in obedience to Him. They no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness. They love other Christians, they persevere and endure because God causes them to do so. Do not apply OSAS to any professing Christian who is not saved.

That's a lot things born again Christians must do.

What if one professes to be born again, but does not do these things?

I see you are saying a born again Christian must not only believe, but actually do things in addition to 'only believing'. Am I correct?

John backs this up in 1 John 5:18 -

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

How does one claim to be born again, unless he does not sin? Ezekiel states this back in OT times. But a lot of people won't accept Ezekiel's word.

Ezekiel 18:31 -
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

If one continues to sin, instead of cleansing himself of the filthiness of the flesh and spirit, how can he claim to be born again?

And if he doesn't cleanse himself, how can he claim OSAS?

 

[Brother Chris]

I strongly believe in eternal security. What is your view of King Solomon, whose life is summarized in 1 Kings 11?

Esp v.4: "For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods;"

As a result of that, v.9-11 - 9 Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.

Is Solomon in heaven or not?

I believe in the eternal security of the believer as well. But that only applies to true believers, and it does not apply to unsaved professing believers. By definition, they are still unbelievers.

In the book of Lamentations or Ecclesiastes it appears that Solomon repented of his disobedience towards God. So based on that, I'd say he is in heaven. All OT saints are in heaven, but some of them were not as holy as they should have been. Remember, they didn't have the knowledge and revelation that NT saints have.

 

[Zanting]

Of course there will be variations of all views, including the loss of salvation view. Particularly, how one might lose it.

However, the whole point is that the concept of loss of salvation is simply not stated in Scripture.

What "OSAS believers" claim isn't important. It is what the Word claims that is of utmost importance.

Define salvation.

 

[Zanting]

Yes. Those who deny OSAS, are applying OSAS to the wrong group. OSAS applies to every born again Christian, that has been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are a new creation who no longer walk in disobedience to God, but walk in obedience to Him. They no longer practice sin, but practice righteousness. They love other Christians, they persevere and endure because God causes them to do so. Do not apply OSAS to any professing Christian who is not saved.

Define saved.

 

[nobdysfool]

Why does one still choose to sin if it is an act of the will?

You do realize that your question makes absolutely no sense?

Why can't you answer why people choose to sin? Does a saved person continually choose to sin?

Notice what is being done here. Shifting the discussion from what was originally said, which I pointed out was a nonsensical question, and now trying to make it appear that I am saying or doing something I am not doing.

Choosing to sin is an act of the will. Sinning is an act of the will. Yet one here apparently thinks that it is not, and there has not been offered any proof or corroborating evidence. As I said, it is a nonsensical question.

Does a person freely choose to sin? If they choose to sin, is it disobedience or not?

Another ridiculous question. Of course a person freely chooses to sin, they are not being forced to do so, and if they sin it is disobedience. Are you trying to say that the rest of us do not believe this? if so, that is dead wrong.

I don't think a trumpet was blown; I didn't hear any boasting.

That's odd, I did. We also hear some of that from others.

How does one tell if someone is saved or not?

All we can do is watch for fruits that go with Salvation. Ultimately that determination rests with God, and He does not call us to try and determine it ourselves. At best, we are fruit inspectors. it's not your job, or my job, to make that determination.

I am wondering how many here cleanse themselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

Quite frankly, that is none of your business. Why do you attempt to impugn the servant of Another? As I said, it's not your call to make. and your subtle hint is that you don't believe that anyone here (but yourself) is doing so.

You are not the Judge, you are not in any authority over anyone here. You not only have no business trying to make that judgment, you have no right to ask that question. You should be ashamed of yourself, for sinning against others here in such a fashion.

It seems that your main mission here is to stir up things, and try to preach your works-based salvation, something for which you will find no traction here, because it is wholly unbiblical.

 

[Brother Chris]

Define saved.

To possess eternal life, not come into judgment, delivered from the wrath of God and Hell, granted entrance into Heaven. Eternal life begins the moment the sinner repents of his sins and believes the Gospel.

 

[lori milne]

I said this: "I believe you've misused the word "predestined" here. Maybe misunderstand. Faith is what is believed. Faith is a noun, and believe is a verb. The Bible gives us that promise. Uh, hope for what, exactly, if not the promise of salvation???? Remission of sins comes through believing in Him. What does "revive remisison of sin" mean???? No, one is a noun and the other is a verb. Except there is NOTHING in the Bible about losing salvation if one loses faith." This sentence doesn't make sense given what I posted. What "does", specifically? And I don't see any explanation of how I misuse the word salvation. Oh, I see. Your view is that believing in Christ doesn't mean one is saved NOW. Is that it? Well, let's look at what Jesus actually SAID: John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (present tense) eternal life, and does not come (future tense) into judgment, but has passed out (past tense) of death into life. I'll believe Jesus' words over your opinion. I don't know what this sentence is trying to convey. Please re-phrase so as to be understood. Uh, what "word" is it that wasn't found????

Salvation is used in the bible differently then the way you are using it.
Is what I meant

 

[lori milne]

I said this: "I believe you've misused the word "predestined" here. Maybe misunderstand. Faith is what is believed. Faith is a noun, and believe is a verb. The Bible gives us that promise. Uh, hope for what, exactly, if not the promise of salvation???? Remission of sins comes through believing in Him. What does "revive remisison of sin" mean???? No, one is a noun and the other is a verb. Except there is NOTHING in the Bible about losing salvation if one loses faith." This sentence doesn't make sense given what I posted. What "does", specifically? And I don't see any explanation of how I misuse the word salvation. Oh, I see. Your view is that believing in Christ doesn't mean one is saved NOW. Is that it? Well, let's look at what Jesus actually SAID: John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (present tense) eternal life, and does not come (future tense) into judgment, but has passed out (past tense) of death into life. I'll believe Jesus' words over your opinion. I don't know what this sentence is trying to convey. Please re-phrase so as to be understood. Uh, what "word" is it that wasn't found????

Eternal life and salvation are never explained in the bible to mean the same thing.

 

[lori milne]

Eternal life and salvation are never explained in the bible to mean the same thing.

Examples of the word salvation used :

For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the Lord wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?
(Samuel‬ [bless and do not curse]19‬:[bless and do not curse]5‬ KJV
This one is obviously

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Luke‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]30-31‬ KJV
This one is obvious

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
[bless and do not curse]Titus‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]11-13‬ KJV
Jesus is the salvation

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]10‬:[bless and do not curse]10‬ KJV

I don't think that's bad to use the word salvation for eternal security as a presumption I think truly it's the same as what I'm saying just verbiage is not the same ??

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's a lot things born again Christians must do.

Yes, Paul called that being under Christ's law (1 Cor 9:21).

What if one professes to be born again, but does not do these things?

OK, what if? Is there any verse that warns of loss of salvation? No. But there are many warnings about loss of various things, including an inheritance in the kingdom, and various kinds of suffering, including being weak, sick, and even physical death (1 Cor 11:30).

One specific type of discipline is found in 1 Cor 5, where Paul says to turn the immoral believer over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, yet his spirit will be saved (1 Cor 5:5).