Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Thursday]

How about we comment and debate about it, rather than you keep saying I am posting man made dogma, and avoiding my points?

Lets focus on Romans 2

In Romans 2 Paul is simply laying out the righteous judgment of God, or how the law of God works, and how God will judge men by the law. He is not explaining how sinners are saved, but just how the law works on judgment day. If you do good you will be accepted, and if you do evil you will be condemned. That's a fact of law. Later in chapter 3 he explains how there is no one that does good and moves on to tell us about "the righteousness of God apart from the law". Sinners are saved from the wrath of God by being justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Read chapters 2-3 again and you'll see now what I mean.

There is no contradiction here. We will be judged for our actions yet we will still not deserve heaven. That is the point of redemption. However, we must strive for holiness. We must seek to obey Jesus. We have to make choices and persistence in disobedience will not lead to heaven. Also, adherence to the Jewish Law is not the same thing as obeying the commands of Jesus.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Keep reading and you'll see more evidence to support the Christian belief that we will be judged for our actions:

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Okay, so if no one is good, not even one, how can the good go to heaven? or as you say be judged according to your works, if no one is good.

There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one. Romans 3:10-12

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

There is no contradiction here. We will be judged for our actions yet we will still not deserve heaven. That is the point of redemption. However, we must strive for holiness. We must seek to obey Jesus. We have to make choices and persistence in disobedience will not lead to heaven. Also, adherence to the Jewish Law is not the same thing as obeying the commands of Jesus.

What I am saying is, pursuant to the Word of God, no one is good not even one, so for you to say you will be judged by your works, when all our works are filthy dirty rags (Isa) then that makes no sense.

 

[Tinyarch]

I don't see how you reach that conclusion from what he posted. There are many things Calvin taught that many Calvinists now reject, like infant baptism, for example.

Calvin never taught using TULIP. It's funny that the OP connects TULIP to Calvin. You can connect TULIP to others, later on, who created the acronym.
I also find it funny that so many people hate John Calvin, yet they have never read his writings and commentaries. What that tells me is that people with a hatred for Calvin have a prejudice they are struggling with.
Like Luther, Zwingli, Simons, etc., Calvin was reading his Bible and recognizing that the church at Rome had left the teachings of scripture and instead clung to unsubstantiated traditions that contradicted scripture.

 

[Thursday]

What I am saying is, pursuant to the Word of God, no one is good not even one, so for you to say you will be judged by your works, when all our works are filthy dirty rags (Isa) then that makes no sense.

Jesus will forgive us if we repent. However, we can't continue to disobey.

Scripture is quite clear, as I have demonstrated.

 

[Thursday]

Jesus will forgive us if we repent. However, we can't continue to disobey. We must bear fruit or we will be cut from the vine.

Scripture is quite clear, as I have demonstrated.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Jesus will forgive us if we repent. However, we can't continue to disobey.

Scripture is quite clear, as I have demonstrated.

Jesus only forgives the saved individual is that not true?

True evidence of conversion is that the believer continues to walk with the Lord

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus will forgive us if we repent. However, we can't continue to disobey.

Scripture is quite clear, as I have demonstrated.

You are adding on to scripture. Scripture says that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we repent. The last sentence is your addition.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

You are adding on to scripture. Scripture says that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we repent. The last sentence is your addition.

very cute maltese in your profile pic, I have a 16 yr old one hes getting old now and a little sick

 

[Dale]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe when the bible says he wishes all to be saved, he means the Jews and Gentiles alike, - remember in the OT, salvation was for Jews and Jews were the chosen people of God, more then 1/2 the Bible is comprised of the OT, now salvation is offered to every tribe nation and tongue, it wasn't before

Christ only makes HOLY those whose name was written in the lambs book of life, before the foundation of the earth was created.

Even the initial faith to believe in Christ is a gift from God, so Salvation is from the Lord

Before the foundation of the earth was created, whoever was to be saved name was written in the lambs book of life, Christ died for those people

Andy,

The Book of Life is mentioned a number of times in the Bible. It first comes up in Exodus and the last mention is at the Final Judgment at the end of Revelation.


The problem is that Calvinists assume that the Book of Life was compiled, or written, before the foundation of the world. The Bible doesn't say this. The Biblical view is that when an unbeliever repents, his or her name goes on the Book of Life. New names can be added to the list, and unfortunately, they can also be stricken, for cause.


The Book of Life is in the Bible. The notion that it hasn't changed since God wrote it before creating the world isn't in the Bible, the Calvinists just put that in. Think about it.

 

[Winken]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Some are true believers, some are fake believers who never received the Spirit.

I think this applies specifically to those who appear before the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[Dale]

Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?

You can't lose salvation, once you get it, your sealed with the spirit.

Maybe those individuals were never saved to begin with and therefore are not producing fruit.

On losing salvation …


Judas Iscariot did.


You can't say that Judas wasn't really saved because Jesus would not have made him an apostle.

 

[Winken]

On losing salvation …


Judas Iscariot did.


You can't say that Judas wasn't really saved because Jesus would not have made him an apostle.

Matthew 26:24
John 17:12

Blessings!

 

[ToBeLoved]

very cute maltese in your profile pic, I have a 16 yr old one hes getting old now and a little sick

They are very nice dogs and I am sorry to hear that yours is aging and sick. I hope that he gets better and that you two have happiness together as much as you are able to. I worry already when I don't have mine around anymore. They are such a comfort in that they always love and are so happy to see us.

 

[Samson Reaper]

I did read the Bible, and your going off topic, The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33

Andy, I am not, and have not gone off topic. Please quit the trivial tricks.

I'll bother with you as I feel duty bound, but due to a recent bereavement I will be to the point, as in blunt.

Postmodern calvinism is based on about 6 verses in the Bible unadulterated and around 12 that are. Read Dort, 39 steps, Westminster Confessions, etc and the same old same old twists and turns crops up over and over, reducing scripture to out of context sound bytes - pointless.

Please can I urge you to read Charles Spurgeons's Sermon 1516. You will find it on the web and it will take you abut half an hour to read.

Spurgeon is was a die hard (old school )Calvinist, yet he writes in this sermon that he cannot fathom the mind of God ( i.e same as classic Arminianism - not that I am a Arminian) Please may I urge you to read his actual words.

My angst is that misquoting scripture to prove some 'logic' does a hell of a lot of damage to a lot of people. Reducing the Bible to nothing more than cliche. Google what Jesus warned to those who lead people astray - weight, neck, drowned - Jesus said. Serious stuff.

Please spend half an hour of your life reading a sermon by a Calvinist - Charles Spurgeon Sermon 1516.

 

[Samson Reaper]

Ephesians 2 shows:
a) how we were dead in our sins

At risk of bombarding this thread - apologies.

But define dead. The saved elect are supposed to be DEAD to sin. Yet they still continue to sin.

So What is Dead; either in sin or dead to sin ?

Be blessed all.

 

[Samson Reaper]

very cute maltese in your profile pic, I have a 16 yr old one hes getting old now and a little sick

From experience - really hard when this happens. Dogs, in my experience are the epitome of unconditional love.

Be blessed.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Andy, I am not, and have not gone off topic. Please quit the trivial tricks.

I'll bother with you as I feel duty bound, but due to a recent bereavement I will be to the point, as in blunt.

Postmodern calvinism is based on about 6 verses in the Bible unadulterated and around 12 that are. Read Dort, 39 steps, Westminster Confessions, etc and the same old same old twists and turns crops up over and over, reducing scripture to out of context sound bytes - pointless.

Please can I urge you to read Charles Spurgeons's Sermon 1516. You will find it on the web and it will take you abut half an hour to read.

Spurgeon is was a die hard (old school )Calvinist, yet he writes in this sermon that he cannot fathom the mind of God ( i.e same as classic Arminianism - not that I am a Arminian) Please may I urge you to read his actual words.

My angst is that misquoting scripture to prove some 'logic' does a hell of a lot of damage to a lot of people. Reducing the Bible to nothing more than cliche. Google what Jesus warned to those who lead people astray - weight, neck, drowned - Jesus said. Serious stuff.

Please spend half an hour of your life reading a sermon by a Calvinist - Charles Spurgeon Sermon 1516.

Hey I would be happy to do that,

I will read it and get back to you soon,

When I said your going off topic, that is because you did say If I actually read the bible, which I probably. (That was off topic to what we were discussing. I think you said something along those lines, I would have to go back)

 

[Thursday]

Jesus only forgives the saved individual is that not true?

True evidence of conversion is that the believer continues to walk with the Lord

Jesus forgives those who repent and ask for forgiveness.

Salvation is not a condition, it is the end result of dying in God's good grace.

 

[Samson Reaper]

Calvin never taught using TULIP. It's funny that the OP connects TULIP to Calvin. You can connect TULIP to others, later on, who created the acronym.
I also find it funny that so many people hate John Calvin, yet they have never read his writings and commentaries. .....