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That is the most creative way I have ever seen a Calvinist describe that they believe that Christ died only for the elect. Because if Christ died only for the elect, that is not 'all men coming to him'. A little honesty would be nice.Of course God desires all men to come to him, but not all will. Because we have a fallen sinful nature and are unable to understand or see the things of God
That is the most creative way I have ever seen a Calvinist describe that they believe that Christ died only for the elect. Because if Christ died only for the elect, that is not 'all men coming to him'. A little honesty would be nice.
Thank you for helping me sharpen my verses brother!
Please see below MacArthur's brilliant explanation of John 15
The metaphor in John 15 is of a vine and its branches. The vine is the source and sustenance of life for the branches, and the branches must abide in the vine to live and bear fruit. Jesus, of course, is the vine, and the branches are people. While it is obvious the fruit-bearing branches represent true Christians, the identity of the fruitless ones is in question. Some Bible students say the barren branches are Christians who bear no spiritual fruit. Others believe they are non-Christians. As always, however, we must look to the context for the best answer.
The true meaning of the metaphor is made clear when we consider the characters in that night's drama. The disciples were with Jesus. He had loved them to the uttermost; He had comforted them with the words in John chapter 14. The Father was foremost in His thoughts, because He was thinking of the events of the next day. But He was also aware of someone else—the betrayer. Judas had been dismissed from the fellowship when he rejected Jesus' final appeal of love.
All the characters of the drama were in the mind of Jesus. He saw the eleven, whom He loved deeply and passionately. He was aware of the Father, with whom He shared an infinite love. And He must have grieved over Judas, whom He had loved unconditionally.
All those characters play a part in Jesus' metaphor. The vine is Christ; the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true disciples of the church age. The fruitless branches represent Judas and all those who never were true disciples.
Jesus had long been aware of the difference between Judas and the eleven. After washing the disciples' feet, He said, "'He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.' For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, 'Not all of you are clean'" (John 13:10-11). Once a person is forgiven by God, he is clean and does not need the bathing of forgiveness again. All that is necessary is to clean the dust and dirt of daily sins from his feet.
His point was that a child of God who commits a sin doesn't need to be saved again; he needs only to restore his personal relationship with the Father. But Judas had not even been "bathed," because he was not a child of God, and Jesus knew it. That is why He added, "not all of you are clean." Judas appeared to be like the other disciples. He was with Jesus for the same amount of time—he had even been given the responsibility of keeping the money. It appeared that he was a branch in the vine like the others—but he never bore real fruit. God finally removed that branch from the vine, and it was burned.
That is the most creative way I have ever seen a Calvinist describe that they believe that Christ died only for the elect. Because if Christ died only for the elect, that is not 'all men coming to him'. A little honesty would be nice.
Thank you your comment made my day!
Our Lord couldn't die for everyone, everyone would be in heaven.
His death was precise and exact, he knew exactly who's sin he was paying for.
Whose fault is that? Why do some come to God?
Scripture is very clear, only those regenerated can see and understand the things of God, I won't get into why people who come to God other then they are slaves to sin and dead in their sins
Maybe you do not understand the difference between dying to conquer sin. IE.. Wipe it out, kick Satan's butt right back to where he belongs and salvation.Thank you your comment made my day!
Our Lord couldn't die for everyone, everyone would be in heaven.
His death was precise and exact, he knew exactly who's sin he was paying for.
God wants all men to be saved. Do you believe God created some men for the sole purpose of torturing them eternally?
I see your point to some degree, however none of us know 1000% that God exists until we meet Him after death. All of our belief is by faith. And faith is what is needed for salvation.Scripture is very clear, only those regenerated can see and understand the things of God, I won't get into why people who come to God other then they are slaves to sin and dead in their sins
I don't see why your wondering this. All I know if not all men can come to Christ because the Bible says man is dead in their sins and slaves to sins, and without being born again you can not see the kingdom of God, you can infer whatever you wish, I think there is a lot of topics were going through now and adding more might confuse things
Your a baptist silly. That's why.I don't see why your wondering this. All I know if not all men can come to Christ because the Bible says man is dead in their sins and slaves to sins, and without being born again you can not see the kingdom of God, you can infer whatever you wish, I think there is a lot of topics were going through now and adding more might confuse things
Maybe you do not understand the difference between dying to conquer sin. IE.. Wipe it out, kick Satan's butt right back to where he belongs and salvation.
Read Romans 5 and 6. Sin had to be conquered, for the consequence of sin to be conquered, which is spiritual death or removed from being with God. Spiritual death is gone. finished. See-ya.
However, one has to choose spiritual life in Christ.
How else do we change masters from sin/self to God/spirit?
The bible says that Jesus draws all men to himself. The bible says Jesus stands at the door and knocks. The bible says that God wants all men to be saved.
What possible purpose could there be for arguing that the actions of people on earth don't impact their salvation? Who would want us to believe that?
Maybe you do not understand the difference between dying to conquer sin. IE.. Wipe it out, kick Satan's butt right back to where he belongs and salvation.
Read Romans 5 and 6. Sin had to be conquered, for the consequence of sin to be conquered, which is spiritual death or removed from being with God. Spiritual death is gone. finished. See-ya.
However, one has to choose spiritual life in Christ.
How else do we change masters from sin/self to God/spirit?
So,
a) We know that people in their unnatural state are slaves to sin, and dead in their sins.
b) We also know that un saved/unregenerated people can not understand or see the things of Heaven
Therefore
Through the Holy Spirit, there must be an initial work done in order for us to be able to see/understand Him, (imparting a heart of flesh removing our heart of stone)
** I am going to have to get some of my Buddies on the baptist page to come help me out here lot of arminians here lol
Natural/unregenerated man does not see, obey, love, understand God.
Therefore he can not come to God
I decided to just post the interpretation and application, as follows:
T = TOTAL INABILITY?
Ephesians 2:8: One, alone, himself/herself, does not choose eternal salvation. Grace through Faith is THE Gift of God.
Romans 10:17: Faith does not arise out of the individual. It is the result of the input of the Holy Spirit, stirring the sinful soul to "bow out" as one approaches confession of Jesus as Savior. Faith to believe is ministered to the individual, Romans 10:8-13. Then that confession results in the promise in Romans 8:1.
James 1:21: One receives the Word (Holy Spirit input) not by avoiding the negatives, but, in meekness, receiving the result of one's confession, based upon the Promise of "If you shall confess......" (above).
OT (Hebrew Bible) scripture is not applicable when discussing eternal salvation for the confessing Christian.
John 1:12: Each of those who [received --> Him] is based upon each one's confession. Those who thus receive Him are given Holy Spirit power. In the Faith provided by the ministering of the Holy Spirit, confession results in eternal security.
2 Timothy 1:12: I know whom I have confessed because of His Amazing Grace. I am enabled thereby to be sustained.
1 Peter 1:2: Peter is writing to the Jews of that day.
2 Thessalonians 2:13: From the beginning God chose to sanctify those who confess Him as Savior. They believe what they have been hearing, due to the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and respond in Faith.
Matthew is the original Book in the NT. It is written entirely to the Hebrew Nation. Mark and Luke are commentaries on Matthew. One treads lightly in applying passages from those Books emphatically to the Christian.
1 Timothy 4:10: Believe, Trust, Savior.
John 5:39-40: Written to the Jews of that day.
Acts 7:51: Written to the Jews of that day.
Jude 1: Sanctification follows confession (Romans 10:8-13) resulting in their eternal preservation through the sacrifice of Jesus. One is only able to confess by Grace through Faith.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: Faithful is HE .... who will do it.
John 10:27-29: Directed to Jews in that day.
Colossians 3:3-4: YOU have been set free. LIFE is from Jesus.
Hebrews 7:25: This passage is directed to the Hebrew folk in that day.
Acts 10:34-35: Of a truth I perceive that God no longer divides folks into groups. IN every nation there are individuals who hear His call, confess Him, and that Faith is counted for Righteousness. (Don't count on works).
John 6:28-29: The work OF GOD is that you respond. (not the work of me).
Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ...." Self-explanatory.
John 5:39-40; Acts 7:51. Directed to a Jewish audience.
CONCLUSION:
God chooses to accept those who confess Him as Savior. Their ability to confess Him comes from Him. He opens the door. Christ gave Himself for everyone, to the Jew first, then to everyone. Each of those so blessed can view the open door, then walk away. However, God will continue to beckon them back to the door. If they die without confessing Jesus, they are eternally lost.
I could go on and on and on, BUT............. I won't.
Prepare your slings and errors (ooops!!!! arrows).
You can tell a stone, come to me if you wish! It can't
A stone is a stone, it can not come, nor can not see/hear/understand
That is a unregenerated/unbeliever/natural man
There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. Romans 3:11
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