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Reformational Philosophy

Jon_

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jgaive said:
Yes, that is probably right - at least for Calvin's successors who tended to concentrate on God (the Father's) decrees and did not sufficiently integrate this with the work of the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is not true of Calvin himself, who puts election under the Work of the Holy Spirit in the Institutes, nor indeed in the important covenatal strand, which is implilcitly in Calvin, but is developed later by people such as Witsius in the 17th Century, and indeed later by Abraham Kuyper.

I might also add - that your Jonathan Edwards was a profound Trinitarian thinker - sadly his insights were lost to a certain extent, although they are definately there in BB Warfield, for example. But, if it loses sight of its Trinitarian roots, Reformed thought can easliy degenerate into Unitarianism or, in the USA, into New England Transcendentalism.


Yours,

Jeremy
I see. I have been steadily working my way through the complete works of Benjamin Warfield and have noticed a strong emphasis in his writings on the interworkings of the Trinity. I had actually taken this for granted in Reformed circles. In fact, as I ponder the Trinity even now, I wonder how I might somehow give more glory to God as a triune God, but I cannot think of any way to do so. To me it seems so natural that God as three persons in one being would work in such distinctive ways that I simply assume the unity of the Trinity in our salvation, perseverance, and the metaphysical sustenance of the world.

Are there common specific areas in which people sometimes fall short of fully glorifying God as a triune God? For instance, a particular place in which God the Father is glorified to the detriment of the Son or Holy Spirit?

I do appreciate your patience and excellent answers. The concept of Trinitarian theology seems meritable to me, but I am just having some difficulty in applying to my own understanding of God, for example.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jgaive

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Jon_ said:
I see. I have been steadily working my way through the complete works of Benjamin Warfield and have noticed a strong emphasis in his writings on the interworkings of the Trinity. I had actually taken this for granted in Reformed circles. In fact, as I ponder the Trinity even now, I wonder how I might somehow give more glory to God as a triune God, but I cannot think of any way to do so. To me it seems so natural that God as three persons in one being would work in such distinctive ways that I simply assume the unity of the Trinity in our salvation, perseverance, and the metaphysical sustenance of the world.

Are there common specific areas in which people sometimes fall short of fully glorifying God as a triune God? For instance, a particular place in which God the Father is glorified to the detriment of the Son or Holy Spirit?

I do appreciate your patience and excellent answers. The concept of Trinitarian theology seems meritable to me, but I am just having some difficulty in applying to my own understanding of God, for example.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

A good place to start is my paper "What on Earth is the the Trinity?"

http://www.quodlibet.net/ive-trinity.shtml

If that makes any sense to you, then I can send you some extracts from my "Work in Progress".

Yours,

Jeremy
 
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Jon_

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jgaive said:
A good place to start is my paper "What on Earth is the the Trinity?"

http://www.quodlibet.net/ive-trinity.shtml

If that makes any sense to you, then I can send you some extracts from my "Work in Progress".

Yours,

Jeremy
Okay, thanks. I'm a little busy today and tomorrow, but I'll try to read it sometime this weekend.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jgaive

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Jon,

You may be interested in these thoughts - i hope it is not too dense:

[font=&quot]To see the world as emanating from one of the persons of the Trinity, say the Son, is to overlook the world of the other two persons, Father and Spirit. Certainly all things are created in the Son, and nothing is make without him. Things cannot flow directly from the being of the Son, because is requires the joint action of the Father and the Son. Since the Father and the Spirit share the being of the Son, and (provided on had a fully perichoretic understanding of the relations of the Three Persons, without the Son's being flowing, for example, from that of the Father) it cannot be said the that the bring of the world cannot be said to flow from the Father and the Sprit. If this is so, and if the bring of the Son is that of the Father and the spirit, therefore it cannot be said that the being of the world flows from the Son either. Therefore, all Trine acts are joint ones that ensure that that are distinct from the world, since, unlike a monadic problematic, so a line can be drawn from the being of the world to the being of God. By the same token, the opposite danger into which a monadic problematic can tend to: that of the discover being the reality of God and the nature of the world, so that God for all practical terms becomes irrelevant to the world. The crucial link here is the work of the Holy Spirit, who continuously brings to us the character and impress of the Son, and the translucent call of the Father. No situations, however "secular" can be free from the certainly implicit, if not explicit, disposition and sovereign engagement of the Triune Persons acting in perfect concert and complementarily.

Jeremy
[/font]
 
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Jon_

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I was listening to a lecture by John Robbins on logic and he mentions a quote from Van Til that I actually found alarming.

Cornelius Van Til said:
We speak of God as a Person, yet we also speak of three Persons in the Godhead. As we say that each of the attributes of God is to be identified with the being of God, while yet we are justified in making a distinction between them, so we say that each Person of the Trinity is exhaustive of divinity itself, while yet there is a genuine distinction between the Persons. Unity and plurality are equally ultimate in the Godhead. The Persons in the Godhead are mutually exhaustive of one another.
This reeks of modalism. It seems to follow that if each Person is exhaustive of the other, then each must be the same as the other in composition and function, but different only in identity. That is to say, that the Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit, and can and does fulfill the functions of the others, but is different as identified separately from the Son and the Holy Spirit. This makes each Person of the Trinity merely an emanation or a mode of the Godhead and not a distinct and separate Person.

The above conclusion would lead to patripassionism, which teaches that God the Father became incarnate and suffered on the cross. If the Father is mutually exhaustive of the divinity of the Trinity, then his Personhood also exhausts that of the Son, meaning that he must have at least been present in and of the Son during the crucifixion, and not separate and distinct as reported in the Scripture ("Father, Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"). Moreover, it would have been nonsensical for Jesus to say this if he too was exhaustive of the divinity of the Trinity, for he would have had all the knowledge, purpose, and power of the Father in him. This formulation reverts the three-Person revelation of the Triune God into the monadic problem that you mention above.

In fact, as I have already expounded upon in Van Til's other writings, he denies that God's truth is ever accessible by man. You mention that the monadic problem leads to a God that exists apart from the world. This seems to be a consequence of Van Til's theology. Not only is there no real distinction (only in identity or name) between the works of the Persons of the Godhead, but he also denies that man can truly know God as he knows himself. One might then also wonder how he is able to so clumsily distort the doctrine of the Trinity.

He finishes,

Cornelius Van Til said:
God is a one-conscious being; and yet, he is also a tri-conscious being.
This is a very clear contradiction, as is the above.

Non-Christians often make the objection that the Trinity is contradictory. But this is wholly invalid in the orthodox formulation that God is one being and three Persons. Since we speak of him being one in being, but three in Persons, there is no contradiction, as we are speaking in different senses. But Van Til discards this orthodox Christian view, probably because he no longer assigns difficulty to biblical contradictions—he accepts them as valid. The result is that he converts the doctrine of the Trinity into an illogical doctrine. More importantly, this departure brings with it overtures of centuries old heresies, which the church had endeavored to refute since the end of the apostolic era.

Van Til is emphatic that God is one Person, numerically one, a single individual Person, but also three Persons that are mutually exhaustive of each other, thus showing God to be truly One. This is nothing but Unitarian doctrine disguised as orthodox understanding of the tri-Person distinction.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Jon_

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Another gem from Van Til: "It is precisely because we at the [Westminster] Seminary are concerned to defend the Christian doctrine of revelation that we refuse to make any attempt at stating clearly any Christian doctrine or the relation of any Christian doctrine to any other Christian doctrine."

Does this mean that Westminster teaches no relation between Christ's redemptive work and justification by faith? If so, then all Westminster is an heretical, apostate institution. If not, then Van Til is a liar.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jgaive

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Jon_ said:
Another gem from Van Til: "It is precisely because we at the [Westminster] Seminary are concerned to defend the Christian doctrine of revelation that we refuse to make any attempt at stating clearly any Christian doctrine or the relation of any Christian doctrine to any other Christian doctrine."

Does this mean that Westminster teaches no relation between Christ's redemptive work and justification by faith? If so, then all Westminster is an heretical, apostate institution. If not, then Van Til is a liar.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
Dear Jon,

What is the reference for that quotation?

Jeremy
 
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Jon_

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I do have a reference to a very similar quote as the first one, and I would venture to suggest that the entire quote is probably taken from the same source. I actually recognized it as soon as Robbin started reading it because Reymond quotes it in his A New Systematic Theology.

You can find it in Van Til's An Introduction to Systematic Theology. The sum of it comes from pp. 220, 228, & 229-230. Robbins might be borrowing additional material from other pages, as well.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Jon_

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Allow me to give the full quote from Reymond as it goes on to highlight Van Til's heterodoxy in even more vivid detail.
God is a one-conscious being, and yet he is a three-conscious being . . . the work ascribed to any of the persons is the work of one absolute person. . . . It is sometimes asserted that we can prove to men that we are not asserting anything that they ought to consider irrational, inasmuch as we say that God is one in essence and three in person. We therefore claim that we have not asserted unit and trinity of exactly the same thing.

Yet this is not the whole truth of the matter. We do assert that God, that is, the whole Godhead, is one person . . . within the ontological Trinity we must maintain that God is numerically one. He is one person. . . . Yet, within the being of the one person we are permitted and compelled by Scripture to make the distinction between a specific or generic type of being, and three personal subsistences (Van Til, in Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, p. 108, emphasis in Reymond).

Van Til is clearly a Unitarian, only paying lip service to the Trinity.



Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jgaive

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Jon_ said:
Allow me to give the full quote from Reymond as it goes on to highlight Van Til's heterodoxy in even more vivid detail.
God is a one-conscious being, and yet he is a three-conscious being . . . the work ascribed to any of the persons is the work of one absolute person. . . . It is sometimes asserted that we can prove to men that we are not asserting anything that they ought to consider irrational, inasmuch as we say that God is one in essence and three in person. We therefore claim that we have not asserted unit and trinity of exactly the same thing.

Yet this is not the whole truth of the matter. We do assert that God, that is, the whole Godhead, is one person . . . within the ontological Trinity we must maintain that God is numerically one. He is one person. . . . Yet, within the being of the one person we are permitted and compelled by Scripture to make the distinction between a specific or generic type of being, and three personal subsistences (Van Til, in Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, p. 108, emphasis in Reymond).
Van Til is clearly a Unitarian, only paying lip service to the Trinity.



Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
[font=&quot]
Dear Jon,

Thank for these quotes, which I have noted and will follow up in due course. Meanwhile, I am sending you what I have to hand: Van Til's terminology (in saying that God is a Person) is unfortunate, but I don't think he is a Modalist, as he clearly believes in the simultaneous eternity of all three Persons.
[/font] For Van Til neither the unity nor the diversity can be derivative, since if either are, God is that respect correlative to the created order (either as unity to the diversity of creation, or diversity to its unity) to quote Van Til#_ftn1:



“The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are each a personality[font=&quot][2][/font] and together constitute the exhaustively personal God. There is an eternal, internal self-conscious interaction between the three persons of the Godhead. They are consubstantial. Each is as much God as are the other two. The Son and the Spirit do not derive their being from the Father. The diversity and the unity in the Godhead are therefore equally ultimate; they are exhaustively correlative to one another and not correlative to anything else.”[font=&quot][3][/font]



For Van Til, the unity and plurality of the Persons of the Trinity are equally ultimate.




[font=&quot][2][/font] Use of the term “personality” is perhaps unfortunate – the Father’s personality is possessed and revealed by the Son, and the Spirit has not a separate personality but is “the Spirit of Christ”. Perhaps a better term would have been “personhood”.


[font=&quot][3][/font] Cornelius Van Til, Apologetics (class syllabus, Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, 1959), p. 8




[font=&quot]See Rousas J. Rushdoony, "The One and the Many Problem - the Contribution of Van Til" in E.R. Geehen, ed., Jerusalem and Athens: Critical Discussions on the Theology and Apologetics of Cornelius Van Til (Nutley, N.J.: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971, pp. 339-48, This is a major point of discussion, see Lee Irons, "Van Til's Philosophical Misuse of the Trinity", 1997 (formerly http://members.aol/ironslee/index.htm) who accuses Van Til (and to a lesser extent Calvin and Warfield as well!) of Modalism for allegedly denying the eternal generation of the Son from the Father so that “each [Person] is co-extensive with the divine essence in the same way that the attributes of God are" (p. 10). My view is that Irons rests his case on a profound misunderstanding of both Calvin and Van Til, neither of whom, to my knowledge, deny the eternal generation of the Son from the Father; but he does have a point in his critique of Van Til's account of the Trinity as "absolute person "(which is not too different from that of Barth's position in this regard, and equally problematical). Most usefully, he highlights the shortcomings of Van Til's approach (not shared by Calvin or indeed Edwards) in insufficiently ruling out the inter-changeability of Persons (a charge which could also be leveled more strongly indeed against Augustine in the latter’s De Trinitate).[/font]
[font=&quot]

Yours,

Jeremy

[/font]
 
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Jon_

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No, I honestly do not think Van Til was a modalist, either. After all, we have to keep in mind that he was an irrationalist. If he contradicts himself, he is actually being consistent with his philosophy, which allows for such patently absurd contradictions. Against this kind of waxing liberalism I am highly polemical, as it effectively leads to a progressive dilution of the Scripture. Van Til himself and his most astute student, John Frame, have both said that all teaching of Scripture is "apparently contradictory." It would take nothing more than a rationalist streak being introduced into their philosophy to effectively ruin their doctrine of biblical inerrancy, as the rational response to any contradiction is to discard it. Apart from that, Van Til, Frame, Rushdoony, North, and any other number of Vantillians are clearly nothing more than Christians fideists. One must then ask what distinguishes their theology (which masquerades as Reformed, but obviously is not) from neo-orthodoxy. After all, there is no necessary component of their theology that should omit the neo-orthodox view, or any other view, for that matter. Any opposing view could simply appeal to the doctrine of "apparent contradiction" to prove their case.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jgaive

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Jon_ said:
No, I honestly do not think Van Til was a modalist, either. After all, we have to keep in mind that he was an irrationalist. If he contradicts himself, he is actually being consistent with his philosophy, which allows for such patently absurd contradictions. Against this kind of waxing liberalism I am highly polemical, as it effectively leads to a progressive dilution of the Scripture. Van Til himself and his most astute student, John Frame, have both said that all teaching of Scripture is "apparently contradictory." It would take nothing more than a rationalist streak being introduced into their philosophy to effectively ruin their doctrine of biblical inerrancy, as the rational response to any contradiction is to discard it. Apart from that, Van Til, Frame, Rushdoony, North, and any other number of Vantillians are clearly nothing more than Christians fideists. One must then ask what distinguishes their theology (which masquerades as Reformed, but obviously is not) from neo-orthodoxy. After all, there is no necessary component of their theology that should omit the neo-orthodox view, or any other view, for that matter. Any opposing view could simply appeal to the doctrine of "apparent contradiction" to prove their case.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
Sorry, Jon, I notice that I have not replied to this. I must do so in due course.



Jeremy
 
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Jon_

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jgaive said:
Sorry, Jon, I notice that I have not replied to this. I must do so in due course.

Jeremy
No rush. After reading that again months after I originally wrote it, I find little that is actually defensible and plenty that is nothing more than opinion on my part.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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ClementofRome

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Jon_ said:
No rush. After reading that again months after I originally wrote it, I find little that is actually defensible and plenty that is nothing more than opinion on my part.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

False humility is not attractive on you Jon! ;)
 
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