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Reformational Philosophy

jgaive

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It anyone interested in Reformational Philosophy. The father of Reformational Philosophy was Abraham Kuyper in the 19th/20th Century.

There are at least three strands:

Reformed Epistemology: Alvin Plantinga et al

Westminster Seminary tradition following Cornelius Van Til

The Amsterdam School: Herman Dooyeweerd and Dirk Vollenhoven

There are also the follower of Gordon Clark - I'm not sure to what extent they would see themselve as intellectual heirs of Kuyper or opposed to him. They would be closet to Alvin Plantinga with their evidentialist approach.
 

jgaive

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ClementofRome said:
Gordon J. Spykman's "Reformational Theology: A New Paradigm for Doing Dogmatics" is a great piece of work that begins with a philosophical basis for reformational thinking.
Yes it is a very useful peice of theological writing from a Reformational standpoint
 
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jbarcher

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Jon_

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jbarcher said:
Out of curiosity, who are the contemporary Reformed philosophers? All I know of is Plantinga, because he's the top dog in some circles. There seem to be a few Plantingas, too; Ted, Cornelius, and Richard.

By the way, see Calvin College's library: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosophy/virtual_library/author_names.htm
Vincent Cheung is among the most capable of any contemporary Christian philosophers I have found. You can read all of his works for free at his website, Reformed Ministries International: www.rmiweb.org.

Additionally, I just posted a review of his Ultimate Questions in the Book Reviews forum: http://www.christianforums.com/t1952359-ultimate-questions.html.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jbarcher

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:D

His 'invincible argument' ... well, I suppose it would do any good to say that not too many philosophers find TAG very compelling. If the news article quoted on Infidels was right, Bahnsen gave Martin a world of trouble on that. Though now it doesn't have many promoters. :scratch:

Anyway, I couldn't find a CV for Cheung. Do you know of one?
 
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Jon_

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jbarcher said:
:D

His 'invincible argument' ... well, I suppose it would do any good to say that not too many philosophers find TAG very compelling. If the news article quoted on Infidels was right, Bahnsen gave Martin a world of trouble on that. Though now it doesn't have many promoters. :scratch:

Anyway, I couldn't find a CV for Cheung. Do you know of one?
Of course they don't find it compelling. The wisdom of God is foolishness to the world. Whether or not they admit the superiority of the argument or not is inconsequential to the argument's merits. Trying to seek out a "common ground" with unbelievers will only result in Christians compromising their positions and opening themselves up to attack. This is why presuppositional apologetics provides superior arguments. Because it refuses to compromise its first principle for the purpose of establishing a neutral field for philosophical debate. Unbelievers, by nature of the noetic effects of sin and their inability to believe in God come into debates with an huge disadvantage. We should exploit this and humiliate them for their folly.

CV? I don't think I am familiar with that acronym. Could you disambiguate it?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jbarcher

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Jon_ said:
Of course they don't find it compelling. The wisdom of God is foolishness to the world. Whether or not they admit the superiority of the argument or not is inconsequential to the argument's merits. Trying to seek out a "common ground" with unbelievers will only result in Christians compromising their positions and opening themselves up to attack. This is why presuppositional apologetics provides superior arguments. Because it refuses to compromise its first principle for the purpose of establishing a neutral field for philosophical debate. Unbelievers, by nature of the noetic effects of sin and their inability to believe in God come into debates with an huge disadvantage. We should exploit this and humiliate them for their folly.

CV? I don't think I am familiar with that acronym. Could you disambiguate it?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Whoops, sorry for not seeing this, Jon. :)

I ask for his CV because I assume that the label of "capable" comes along with a deep and reaching knowledge about philosophy--in other words, a PhD or equivalent.
 
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ClementofRome

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jbarcher said:
Whoops, sorry for not seeing this, Jon. :)

I ask for his CV because I assume that the label of "capable" comes along with a deep and reaching knowledge about philosophy--in other words, a PhD or equivalent.

I am not sure that these things equate. I have a PhD and I am the least in the kingdom. Some of the most philosophically minded Christians I have known do not hold advanced degrees. Strangely, some of the most ridiculous folks I have known have PhD's.

Sorry, not wanting to argue, but some of the argumentation here in Semper Reformada is worthy of the title "advanced."

Blessings to you.
 
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Jon_

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ClementofRome said:
I am not sure that these things equate. I have a PhD and I am the least in the kingdom. Some of the most philosophically minded Christians I have known do not hold advanced degrees. Strangely, some of the most ridiculous folks I have known have PhD's.

Sorry, not wanting to argue, but some of the argumentation here in Semper Reformada is worthy of the title "advanced."

Blessings to you.
Clement's got a Ph.D.! Mmm, somehow I suspected he was among the upper-crust. :thumbsup:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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ClementofRome

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Jon_ said:
Clement's got a Ph.D.! Mmm, somehow I suspected he was among the upper-crust. :thumbsup:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Oh for crying out loud....I only mentioned it to make a point that YOU (in particular) can argue circles around a number of folks that I know who DO have PhD's. Good grief! :p
 
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Jon_

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ClementofRome said:
Oh for crying out loud....I only mentioned it to make a point that YOU (in particular) can argue circles around a number of folks that I know who DO have PhD's. Good grief! :p
:eek:

Wow. Actually, I'm very humbled by this. But that just goes to show you that it is of God and not him who wills or runs. I know I can't claim even a shred of credit for what I know. It is only by illumination of the Spirit that I know anything of him. Just as our Lord and Savior says, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Matt. 11:25 AV). And as the Scripture says, "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (1 Cor. 1:20 AV), and, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" (1 Cor. 2:9 AV).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jbarcher

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Having a PhD isn't a necessary condition, no, to be able to bang with the big boys. However, I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt--I'm sure you can sympthasize when I say that many of those who are highly praised do not deserve it.

Case in point; I was at a forum over a year ago where someone who had memorized twenty alleged cases of biblical contradictions was considered a machine of destruction. :p

I also am a little irritated by some of the dogmatic promotions of strawman-ish arguments among Christian communities, especially when they don't come along with being able to listen for more nuanced positions. So I find myself constantly the herustic skeptic. I'm not naming any names, but it's there.

Clem, what's your doctorate in? What did you write your dissertation on? (Curious.)
 
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Jon_

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jbarcher said:
Case in point; I was at a forum over a year ago where someone who had memorized twenty alleged cases of biblical contradictions was considered a machine of destruction. :p
Yeah, this is the kinda stuff I'm really talking about. A presuppositional argument absolutely demolishes objections like this. There is simply no need to research the evidential counterarguments against such an attack because (according to presuppositional apologetics) the atheist would not even be able to justify a worldview outside of the biblical worldview from which he could raise such objections.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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ClementofRome

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Jon_ said:
Yeah, this is the kinda stuff I'm really talking about. A presuppositional argument absolutely demolishes objections like this. There is simply no need to research the evidential counterarguments against such an attack because (according to presuppositional apologetics) the atheist would not even be able to justify a worldview outside of the biblical worldview from which he could raise such objections.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Exactly! I love it! :clap:

jbarcher, check your email.
 
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jbarcher

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My email, eh. Thanks. And did you deliberately put in the pun? You said "argue circles"...

I'm beginning to see the same problem I had with other presuppers... but cannot yet put my finger on it. It's partly that it's sounds like an invincible position, partly that there still exist questions of reliability of the Bible, partly that I think I'm hearing something that doesn't quite, well, cohere to reality. No smear intended... until my thoughts take form they are quite rough and unprecise. I also cannot quite picture how one would argue in the manner you are suggesting.

In regards to the low-level skeptics, there's two ways I take--or both (mentioned briefly in the CA thread). Either demonstrate how their cases are inerror, or argue for the necessity of historical context in interpretation. Sometimes I need to do both; if the level I am arguing at is too high for them and they cannot understand the exegetical rationale.*

The epistemology of a lot of people today is somewhat scientific. They want "facts" and evidence. The more arguments you destruct and the more things that start pointing your way does a lot. (I don't believe the point of apologetics is to convert people; it's doomed to failure and I know the T of the TULIP agrees.) But then consider this...

We both know, I assume, that people find ways to hide if they don't want to believe. They'll manage to find some reason to keep their beliefs and they may even change some epistemology around to give their reason sufficient strength. In this case I think a body of evidence is stronger than an argument against the coherency of all non-biblical worldviews. The way it would come to be seen, I believe, is many reasons versus one argument. Also, with many reasons in the memory it calls for much more twisting and turning. Pretty soon it's like history is scary.

Anyway, keep on poking at my thoughts please, I'm sure what I'm thinking of will take shape soon.
---
*Just so you know I'm not just talk, I once pointed out that the clothing laws in the OT are coherent (and comfortable) within ancient notions of purity and wholeness (if you want a quick rundown of each I can do that). This was in response to the charge that the clothing laws were absurd. The response I got back was a repeat; not a refutation, of the original charge. This I think calls for a more fundamental approach; educating the skeptic on basic exegesis. It's basically a case of, 'Well gee, of course your decontextualized interpretations are absurd.'

Hey Socrates, let me ask you a question...
Yes?
If I plug in an ice chest downstairs, leave the house, drive down to New York in a garbage dump truck, and read the newspaper in a Starbucks, is the ice chest still on?
........(I think he needs some hemlock)
 
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Jon_

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jbarcher said:
*Just so you know I'm not just talk, I once pointed out that the clothing laws in the OT are coherent (and comfortable) within ancient notions of purity and wholeness (if you want a quick rundown of each I can do that). This was in response to the charge that the clothing laws were absurd. The response I got back was a repeat; not a refutation, of the original charge. This I think calls for a more fundamental approach; educating the skeptic on basic exegesis. It's basically a case of, 'Well gee, of course your decontextualized interpretations are absurd.'
One of the fundamental problems with the noetic effects of sin is that it consistently distorts the truth of Scripture. The word of God is, of course, objective revelation, in that anyone can read it; however, there comes no true knowledge of the word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit (subjective revelation). Since unregenerate men do not receive this illumination, they will never agree with your exegesis. They will always make the Scriptures say what they want them to say. If you argue that their interpretation is invalid, they can simply shoot back that your interpretation is invalid. If you say that yours is based on exegesis, they just fire back that that is only a consensus approach to interpreting the word and might be incorrect. You can argue this point back and forth until the kingdom comes. The problem is that exegesis is an inductive method, which means that it never produces a universally true outcome.

This is why it is superior to argue that for the skeptic to even be able to question the Bible he must first assume the worldview that it provides. He implicitly operates on the presupposition that the Scripture is true and provides all the necessary tenets for existence. He was made to do so. Nevertheless, because of his sinful nature, he denies this explicitly. Our job as apologists should be to point this out and show the folly of arguing against the very intellectual basis that they are using.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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