Recovery from the occult forum - an explanation

[pgp_protector]

Is someone who has romantic sex with Satan and demons a Christian?

This is a very pertinent question on a site that has a very loose definition of what a Christian is.
How do we know non-Christians are not posting there?

nm

 

[Brimshack]

- I do find it remarkable that the objection to this forum has made a seemless transition from an accusation that forum members and the administration of the website were deliberately promoting Satanism through the secret forum to a range of concerns about its effectiveness in helping the members on it. This started as a witch hunt, literally, and it still has traces of that.

- Questions about the suitability of a website to help people with this problem are legitimate. They are not, however, limited to this secret forum, nor did they suddenly become legitimate after 7/7/7. I do think the entire effort to help people through the recovery forums ought to be revisited, and some sort of consensus should be estabished as to what responsibility the forum staff will take in dealing with the issue. That should be communicated to the membership clearly in each and every recovery forum, and it should guide decisions about what is and is not appropriate procedure for the recovery forums.

Rule 3 of the Recovery guidelines does tell people not to pose as experts, but what is needed is additional language to the effect that staff at 4U are not to be considered experts, and will not act in such a capcity, etc. If such qualifiers (and actions in accordance with them) are not adequate to the new secret forum, then they are certainly not adequate for ANY of the other recovery forums either. There is no particular reason to believe the staff have overstepped their authority in this case any more than the others, but if it's an issue, then deal with the issue at large.

- As a side note: not all help is professinal help. Sometimes helping someone in recovery means taking your recovering alcoholic friend out for a sober activity on Friday night. Sometimes it means talking to someone in a friendly manner about things on their mind. Sometimes, it means just not being a jerk when the subject comes up or assuming the worst about them on a regular basis. I think a lot of the support forums could be looked at in such a manner, but that does mean establishing some boundaries for both those helped and those trying to help. It may well be that this forum goes beyond that, and it may not. Most of us will probably never know. I would personally hope that the goal of the staff included a very concerted effort to help Moriah seek professional help, and if that is the case, then that alone makes a plausble case for the forum.

- The website structure is not legislation. If the staff feels it is appropriate to create a special forum with special rules, then they are certainly entitled to do so. The wisdom of that decision is certainly open to question (though in this case lots of relevant info is missing). In either event, the notion that this is precedent (a theme in many of the objections to this forum) does seem quite out of place.

- Sometimes you have to say 'no' to people who want help, for your sake as well as theirs. Maybe this was/is one of those times. It would really help if a large part of the argument in favor of doing that was not tied to the political infighting of this forum.

 

[EbonNelumbo]

Once again, the internet is a TERRIBLE place for such things, and I cannot reiterate this enough. The internet is false on so many levels, reality being one of them. These ex-occultists need to get help in real life. This is only common sense here. The Church should be their hospital, just as it is for all the rest of us sinners, ex-occultists or not.

You're right. Generally speaking, internet probably isn't the best place for help.

However, given the environments that many people are in, real life is often more of a detriment to a person, than the internet.

 

[Tenebrae]

Once again, the internet is a TERRIBLE place for such things, and I cannot reiterate this enough. The internet is false on so many levels, reality being one of them. These ex-occultists need to get help in real life. This is only common sense here. The Church should be their hospital, just as it is for all the rest of us sinners, ex-occultists or not.

Of course the internet is a terrible place for such things, however for some people it is the only place they have. It should not be like this, however for somethis is the reaility.

I think this is comparing apples to oranges. Even though we have rules in the Conservative Christians site, we cannot make them override the sitewide rules. We cannot exclude people from posting, much less from viewing our forum. We still can't discuss things we may think are sinful, because it would offend the rest of the site. People have come in and reported posts that discuss the tenets of our faith simply because they are offended. Yet this fsuborum will be completely closed off to the rest of the site. I think this is a very dangerous area being crossed into. Of course, this is JMHO.

If you can find rules in the forum wiki that violate the forum wide rules, please place them here. The rules were created aiming to work within the current rules, however if we have inadvertainly contradicted the forum rules, then please let me know

 

[CaDan]

Once again, the internet is a TERRIBLE place for such things, and I cannot reiterate this enough. The internet is false on so many levels, reality being one of them. These ex-occultists need to get help in real life. This is only common sense here. The Church should be their hospital, just as it is for all the rest of us sinners, ex-occultists or not.

Upon consideration (and I've been helping seebs move all day and missed the drama happening live), I must concur. On the internet, problems seem to quickly devolve into drama. While it is possible for healing to happen, it is not common and perhaps happens in spite of what we do rather than in response to it.

Aside from that, I am troubled by the process by which this rather drastic step was taken. As drstevej has continued to correctly point out--and I think you all know how rarely we agree--the people who will have to do the most work and pay the most attention to this new forum had no idea this was being done and appear not to want the responsibility.

I would strongly suggest that this be rolled back so that it may be discussed a bit more.

 

[drstevej]

Bookmark:
CaDan and drstevej agree

HIGH FIVES

 

[Tenebrae]

Bookmark:
CaDan and drstevej agree

HIGH FIVES

Its bound to happen sooner or later

 

[Avatar]

If you want to get an idea of the sort of conversations that will take place, feel free to check out the black sheep alliance in the christian clubs forum

Thank you. I read the second thread and see what it is all about. I would love to support you in your new forum and be a part of it. I don't have much to offer other than fellowship and compassion. I have no qualifications to fight the darkness other than my faith.

I know Satan exists, I have seen him several times - in people I love. Once in my eldest daughter long ago and several times in my wife when she has had far too much to drink. She's weak then, I guess, and he can enter. I no longer engage with him, he derives strength from strife and hate. He's powerless without it.

Satan owned me once and could control me very well. This happened (like my wife) when I drank too much. I assualted people, committed arson, theft attacked my wife and and children. Those were dark days. They don't happen anymore and haven't for many years, I don't know why. My ability to overcome Satanic impulses did not coincide with my return to Christianity. That came later. Maybe I can simply recognize him now.

I have no answers to offer, but I do have a loving shoulder that anyone can cry on.

 

[Sylvanspirits]

I no longer engage with him, he derives strength from strife and hate.

I do have a loving shoulder that anyone can cry on.

If you keep that attitude, Avatar, I doubt people would oppose having you there. Of course, it's not my decision.

 

[pgp_protector]

I wish I wasn't repped out!

Sorry, can't proxy rep for ya, I already rep it before I saw you post

 

[3girls2dogs]

If you can find rules in the forum wiki that violate the forum wide rules, please place them here. The rules were created aiming to work within the current rules, however if we have inadvertainly contradicted the forum rules, then please let me know

1.4 No forum (with the exception of the teen forums) will restrict entry or participation based upon a member's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Members are expected to obey all of a forum’s rules while posting there.

 

[Macrina]

I have a question:

I've seen a couple of posts that seem to indicate there may be other "invisible" areas on this site -- is that true, or am I misunderstanding?

As I have mentioned before, I would like to see something akin to the Site Supporter area, where it is known to exist (visible to all), but where access to thread titles, member lists, and posts is restricted. I would advocate the same for any other "invisible" sections, if they exist. This isn't to condemn the forums or the people in them, but it's to 1) combat the appearance of secrecy, and 2) help people know that the option to participate is available.

I may have misunderstood this, and if I did, just ignore this post.

 

[drstevej]

1.4 No forum (with the exception of the teen forums) will restrict entry or participation based upon a member's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Members are expected to obey all of a forum’s rules while posting there.

Nice spot.

 

[Tenebrae]

Nice spot.

definately, it will need to be looked at

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I am, of course. Goes without saying.

Honestly though, how is it healthy to continue to identify and label oneself as an ex-occultist? Ex means you are no longer. Calling oneself a black sheep because you're an ex something or other doesn't make a bit of sense. You're either part of your new faith profession or you aren't. To continually post about and alienate yourself based on what you used to believe is strange.

I'm an ex-Pentecostal, an ex-Baptist, and an ex-Deist. I technically consider myself to be an ex-occultist just because of my views on what I did and experienced as a Pentecostal. I don't continually go around calling myself a Black Sheep Orthodox Christian because of it though and I don't continually feel a particular need to constantly talk about it. I have a new life in Christ and I have struggles, but I am part of His Church.

I'm sorry if you and other disaffected ex-occultists find my posts offensive, but none of this reasoning is making sense to me.

Being treated THIS way over every freaking honest breath one takes is what lies behind the impetus to create names and labels like this. So you are not one of those who gets done this way? Glory hallelujah for you then. You clearly cannot comprehend what it is like to live our lives so what gives you the right to sit in judgment on every little thing, again? You are exactly WHO to me, again? I don't know you. I don't recognize you. You have no authority or legitimacy with me whatsoever.

 

[EbonNelumbo]

Okay, here's a perspective:

Site supporters get their own forum, because of something they do.
Recov occultists get their own, because of something they are TRYING to do.

Kill one thread, kill them both, imo.

 

[CaDan]

I have a question:

I've seen a couple of posts that seem to indicate there may be other "invisible" areas on this site -- is that true, or am I misunderstanding?

I know of two that I am sure still exist--the Newspaper Team and the Wiki Team. I don't know if the Conciliators one still exists.

 

[drstevej]

Okay, here's a perspective:

Site supporters get their own forum, because of something they do.
Recov occultists get their own, because of something they are TRYING to do.

Kill one thread, kill them both, imo.

Maybe Site Supporters ought to be a Recovery Forum

 

[3girls2dogs]

Okay, here's a perspective:

Site supporters get their own forum, because of something they do.
Recov occultists get their own, because of something they are TRYING to do.

Kill one thread, kill them both, imo.

So, if I pay $20, I can gain entry into the Occult Recovery subforum? I mean you no disrespect, OddBeani. It's just that is not that hard to gain entry to the Site Supporters forum. I can choose whether to enter that forum or not by my donation. I don't mind the forum's existence if it intends to do what it says it will, but I do mind the secrecy.

 

[CaDan]

So, if I pay $20, I can gain entry into the Occult Recovery subforum? I mean you no disrespect, OddBeani. It's just that is not that hard to gain entry to the Site Supporters forum. I can choose whether to enter that forum or not by my donation. I don't mind the forum's existence if it intends to do what it says it will, but I do mind the secrecy.

The Wiki Team forum is a bargain. Just send me a PM.