Reconciled Unto God, NOT Predestinated

[Hammster]

You don't understand the Gospel.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits in heaven as... "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

The scripture says that Jesus has reconciled us and THE WHOLE WORLD unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

The question now is, will you trust and believe in him as your savior and be reconciled unto God?

I’m not a universalist. And that’s not what that passage says, as I’ve already pointed out. Changing the words is a poor way to argue.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You don't understand the Gospel.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits in heaven as... "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

The scripture says that Jesus has reconciled us and THE WHOLE WORLD unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

The question now is, will you trust and believe in him as your savior and be reconciled unto God?

Why should anyone bother to trust Jesus as their savior and be reconciled to God, if, in fact, God has reconciled all of humanity to Himself already?

 

[RobertPate]

Why should anyone bother to trust Jesus as their savior and be reconciled to God, if, in fact, God has reconciled all of humanity to Himself already?

Simply because nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not all want it. It must be received by faith or it is not ours.

 

[Hammster]

Simply because nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not all want it. It must be received by faith or it is not ours.

Is faith received by faith?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Simply because nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not all want it. It must be received by faith or it is not ours.

Got it. God has not actually reconciled all of humanity to himself. Humanity is require to reconcile themselves to God. To use an allegory, God merely unlocked the door, but did not open it and bring His people in. People must discover that there is a door and that the door has significance and that they must open the door themselves and then walk in.

 

[Brightfame52]

If one believes that they have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, they will reject the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. It is not possible to believe both doctrines. Why would one believe that they have been predestinated by God and then believe that they have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ?

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says anyone has been predestinated to salvation by God. The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible about 4 times, while words like "faith" and "believe" appear hundreds of times.

Scriptures that Calvinist use to try and prove predestination.

Ephesians 1:4. According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, John 3:17.

Ephesians 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
All Christians are adopted into Jesus Christ when they first believe.

Ephesians 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will. This scripture applies to all believers, 1 Peter 1:4. Not just Calvinist.

Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son. All believers are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit working in their lives, Ephesians 2:10.

Romans 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified. We are all called to come to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Not just some.

There is no scripture there or in the Bible that says God predestinates some to heaven and others to hell.

Who are the elect?

The elect are those that have elected (chosen) to believe in Jesus for their salvation by their own free will.

Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, no predestination needed.

"And all things are of God, who has reconciled us and the world unto to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

How does Jesus reconcile us and the world unto God? Jesus, as God's new Adam and our representative has fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law. Having fulfilled the law, he abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole word, 1 John 2:2. We now stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

The reconciled to God by the death of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The same people when they were enemies Paul said they were predestinated Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So the reconciled to God while unbelieving enemies by Christs death, are the same as those predestinated to be conformed to the image of Him who died for them.

 

[Brightfame52]

bbbbbbb

Humanity is require to reconcile themselves to God.

False, God reconciled those Christ died for to Himself Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

That word reconciled apokatallassō:

1. to reconcile completely
   
2. to reconcile back again
   
   
3. bring back a former state of harmony
   

So Christs death has completely reconciled the people He died for, back to God.

It wasn't mans responsibility to do that, but Christs responsibility, and He accomplished it, by His death.

You trying to give humanity credit for what Christ should have all the credit for !

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbbb



False, God reconciled those Christ died for to Himself Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

That word reconciled apokatallassō:

1. 
   
   
   • to reconcile completely
   • to reconcile back again
   • bring back a former state of harmony

So Christs death has completely reconciled the people He died for, back to God.

It wasn't mans responsibility to do that, but Christs responsibility, and He accomplished it, by His death.

You trying to give humanity credit for what Christ should have all the credit for !

I quite agree with you. I was attempting to expose the false logic of Robert Pate. The concept of universal reconciliation either means universal salvation or it means a form of partial reconciliation (which is hardly universal in that aspect) which requires humanity to perform its portion of the covenant in order to achieve salvation.

 

[RobertPate]

I quite agree with you. I was attempting to expose the false logic of Robert Pate. The concept of universal reconciliation either means universal salvation or it means a form of partial reconciliation (which is hardly universal in that aspect) which requires humanity to perform its portion of the covenant in order to achieve salvation.

Paul said that Jesus has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. This is why salvation is by grace through faith. It appears to me that you believe that you can reconcile yourself unto God by what you do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul said that Jesus has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. This is why salvation is by grace through faith. It appears to me that you believe that you can reconcile yourself unto God by what you do.

According to you it seems to me that God has only conditionally reconciled mankind to Himself. If you choose to redefine "reconcile" as being conditional, then the reconciliation is far from complete, is it not?

It is one thing to say that the entire world is reconciled to God and quite another thing to say that the offer of reconciliation has been made by God to the world.

 

[Brightfame52]

Paul said that Jesus has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. This is why salvation is by grace through faith. It appears to me that you believe that you can reconcile yourself unto God by what you do.

That world is justified from all sin !

 

[Hammster]

That world is justified from all sin !

It’s not.

 

[Brightfame52]

Simply because nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not all want it. It must be received by faith or it is not ours.

Salvation has been provided only for the election of grace. And faith is given them.

 

[Brightfame52]

It’s not.

I would have to differ with you. That scripture says of that world, God doesnt impute sin to it, so its Justified from sin 2 Cor 5:19

9 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now Paul writes in another place the blessedness of those whom God doesnt impute sin Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So the world of men God doesnt impute sin, also are the blessed ones unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, which righteousness and Justification are one.

 

[Hammster]

I would have to differ with you. That scripture says of that world, God doesnt impute sin to it, so its Justified from sin 2 Cor 5:19

9 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now Paul writes in another place the blessedness of those whom God doesnt impute sin Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So the world of men God doesnt impute sin, also are the blessed ones unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, which righteousness and Justification are one.

Your assumption is that “world” means every single person. That’s not sustainable as we know that not everyone has been saved.

 

[Lost Witness]

If one believes that they have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, they will reject the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. It is not possible to believe both doctrines. Why would one believe that they have been predestinated by God and then believe that they have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ?

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says anyone has been predestinated to salvation by God. The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible about 4 times, while words like "faith" and "believe" appear hundreds of times.

Scriptures that Calvinist use to try and prove predestination.

Ephesians 1:4. According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, John 3:17.

Ephesians 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
All Christians are adopted into Jesus Christ when they first believe.

Ephesians 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will. This scripture applies to all believers, 1 Peter 1:4. Not just Calvinist.

Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son. All believers are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit working in their lives, Ephesians 2:10.

Romans 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified. We are all called to come to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Not just some.

There is no scripture there or in the Bible that says God predestinates some to heaven and others to hell.

Who are the elect?

The elect are those that have elected (chosen) to believe in Jesus for their salvation by their own free will.

Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, no predestination needed.

"And all things are of God, who has reconciled us and the world unto to himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

How does Jesus reconcile us and the world unto God? Jesus, as God's new Adam and our representative has fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law. Having fulfilled the law, he abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole word, 1 John 2:2. We now stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Matthew 22:14 It's Plain as day in scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your assumption is that “world” means every single person. That’s not sustainable as we know that not everyone has been saved.

I dont assume that. I stated that the world consist of those who God doesn't impute sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I can accept that you don't believe only Calvinists are the elect but you can't speak for everyone who supports Calvinism. And some on paper may agree they're not but there are many who don't demonstrate such by their actions and words. I suspect with some not all the saying other people can be the elect is mere window dressing. (but maybe not that way with you) If it wasn't I'd expect to see more rhetoric like dear beloved brethren, or brother or sister in talking to each other. I don't see that as much as one should.

"Calvinistic" doctrine, or Reformed doctrine, pretty strongly points out in the Doctrine of God, Soteriology, Hamartiology, and so on, probably to some degree in all its doctrines, that Grace is necessary because of man's inherent inability. Thus, logically, I have to (happily) rely on God for even my understanding of the Gospel. I have no sufficient knowledge, wisdom, understanding, nor integrity to do the job. The fact that my concept of the Gospel may be better than someone else's by no means elevates me to "understands enough"; in the end, it is all of Grace, the work of God.

So yes, the Spirit of God takes up residence wherever it will, and that by the will of God, not by the will nor ability of man. My salvation does not depend on my integrity of operation, my intelligence, my knowledge, my wisdom, nor anything else I have, but on God's mercy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So here's an offbeat idea. Maybe God predestined the elect, and the rest could go either way. Or put another way those who aren't the pre elect can still make the choice to follow Jesus.

Maybe that's what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 15:23.

Both have choice, unlike what I take to be an implication of your statement, as if predestining some and not others means that the others chose, but those he predestined had no choice. (Unless, that is, your take is just the opposite. But the fact remains, all have will and all have choice.)

Furthermore, the logical proof of predestination is in the mere fact of God being first cause, thus all other fact descended by causation from him —including the salvation of some and the loss of the rest. If God created the lost, he caused the lost. Thus, all that comes to pass is predestined.

Whatever your interpretation or use of 1 Corinthians 15:23, it is not a stand-alone verse; it is like all other scripture, attested to or affirmed by, and judged by the rest of scripture.

 

[Hammster]

I dont assume that. I stated that the world consist of those who God doesn't impute sin.

And that’s not everyone.