Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Brightfame52]

I have not said whether I see a difference or not. What I said is all are children of wrath before faith. Because it's what the Bible say.

So what is the difference Im witnessing to ?

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't understand how you mean God choose us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. You mean God choose those who are in Christ now before the foundation of the world that they would come to be in Christ?

Good day Zoidar

Always nice to chat with you.

The "In Christ" is a preposition. In Christ we have all the heavenly Blessings Vs 3. This phase occurs a lot in this log sentence.

He chose to put us "in" Christ before the world's foundation was put in place (creation).

Would you agree those who are in Christ are saved?

You may find these helpful:

What Does It Mean That God Chose Us before the Foundation of the World? (Ephesians 1)

God Has Chosen Us in Him Before the Foundation of the Earth

The glorious, unshakable, objective foundation of your being a Christian is that God chose you to be one.

www.desiringgod.org

If you recall Christ was Slain before the foundation of the worlds as well - 1Pe 1, Rev 13.

Da Carson: He breaks it down quite well.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good day Zoidar

Always nice to chat with you.

Hi Bill,

I'm happy you feel that way!

The "In Christ" is a preposition. In Christ we have all the heavenly Blessings Vs 3. This phase occurs a lot in this log sentence.

He chose to put us "in" Christ before the world's foundation was put in place (creation).

You mean God put us in Christ before the foundation or decided before the foundation He would later, after we had been born on Earth put us in Christ? I probably get the answer from your videos, just wanted to ask you first.

Would you agree those who are in Christ are saved?

Yes, I would agree with that statement.

You may find these helpful:

What Does It Mean That God Chose Us before the Foundation of the World? (Ephesians 1)

God Has Chosen Us in Him Before the Foundation of the Earth

The glorious, unshakable, objective foundation of your being a Christian is that God chose you to be one.

www.desiringgod.org

If you recall Christ was Slain before the foundation of the worlds as well - 1Pe 1, Rev 13.

1 Pet 1? What verse are you thinking about?

V. 20? It doesn't say slain but ok.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
— 1 Peter 1:20

Da Carson: He breaks it down quite well.

In Him,

Bill

I will listen to the videos you recommend, just not right now, but maybe later today or tomorrow.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

I'm happy you feel that way!

You mean God put us in Christ before the foundation or decided before the foundation He would later, after we had been born on Earth put us in Christ? I probably get the answer from your videos, just wanted to ask you first.

Yes, I would agree with that statement.

1 Pet 1? What verse are you thinking about?

V. 20? It doesn't say slain but ok.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
— 1 Peter 1:20

I will listen to the videos you recommend, just not right now, but maybe later today or tomorrow.

Good day, Zoidar

The time / vs no time when viewed by an eternal being that is timeless (everything is ever present before HIM) is always hard IMHO.

I think God here though Paul is using "before" the foundation ( Time reference) to help us understand.

That in the ever present view of God, where we always "in Christ" even though we experience that in time bound reality.

Not sure what I was thinking almost 60 memory is not what it use to be.

Hope that helps....

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

So what is the difference Im witnessing to ?

You are saying the elect never were children of wrath or no elect person born after the time of the crucifixion has ever been under God's wrath, (I don't know which one you affirm), despite the, I would say, indisputable evidence of Eph 2:3. I think (and hope) even the majority of Calvinists would disagree with you as well.

However, you can say the elect were chosen and predestined before the beginning of time to be children of God, that is different thing. Even I may not agree, I think it's a valid position to hold.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are saying the elect never were children of wrath or no elect person born after the time of the crucifixion has ever been under God's wrath, (I don't know which one you affirm), despite the, I would say, indisputable evidence of Eph 2:3. I think (and hope) even the majority of Calvinists would disagree with you as well.

However, you can say the elect were chosen and predestined before the beginning of time to be children of God, that is different thing. Even I may not agree, I think it's a valid position to hold.

Nope you didnt even grasp what I posted.

 

[zoidar]

Nope you didnt even grasp what I posted.

You have to be clearer then.

It sounds like you are saying the elect are just like the reprobate, enemies to God, yet the difference being that the elect are justified enemies to God, because of the sacrifice of Christ. Which makes no sense.

Since the elect are justified enemies of God, there is no wrath over them. But the reprobate are only enemies of God and therefore there is wrath over them. Which also makes no sense.

Feel free to correct me if I got you wrong.

Probably you are trying to point out the elect are enemies to God in the flesh like everyone else. Which is not the way the Bible use the word "enemy".

 

[zoidar]

Enemies of God by nature

All of Gods Elect, Sheep are by nature like all others enemies of God Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

...

Here is part of the problem. You write the elect "are" enemies of God where the Bible says "were" enemies of God.

This makes your post confusing.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !

We were enemies of God, living by our fallen nature. But to say repentance is not a part of the salvation journey is missing the point.

Salvation has always involved repentance.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

A person who says they believe in Jesus but have no change of heart, still wishes to sin, does not know God.

Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

How does one "obey" Jesus, by putting faith in Jesus, and turning from known sin.

 

[zoidar]

Good day Zoidar

Always nice to chat with you.

The "In Christ" is a preposition. In Christ we have all the heavenly Blessings Vs 3. This phase occurs a lot in this log sentence.

He chose to put us "in" Christ before the world's foundation was put in place (creation).

Would you agree those who are in Christ are saved?

You may find these helpful:

What Does It Mean That God Chose Us before the Foundation of the World? (Ephesians 1)

God Has Chosen Us in Him Before the Foundation of the Earth

The glorious, unshakable, objective foundation of your being a Christian is that God chose you to be one.

www.desiringgod.org

If you recall Christ was Slain before the foundation of the worlds as well - 1Pe 1, Rev 13.

Da Carson: He breaks it down quite well.

In Him,

Bill

I have listened now. I like the way Piper explains assurance, much the same way as Lutherans. We have our assurance outside of ourself, certainly relieving for all who struggles. I don't have that much to say about his view of election, other than I think he goes too far by putting two extremes against each other where there are other options. But I guess it's part of the Calvinist - Arminian battle.

I like the way Da Carson laid out his teaching, sticking to his own position and theology. I found it interesting he believed the "us" in Eph 1 are the Jews and the "you" are the Gentiles. I didn't expect that view from him.

I don't think they fully explained how the elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Piper says: "God chose us individuals to be saved by comming into union with Christ", which sounds like God chose the elect before the foundation of the world to sometime in the future be put in Christ. But then Piper says: "He chose us in relation to Christ, through Jesus, by means of Jesus." That isn't all that clear what he means. It almost sounds like he doesn't fully know in what way God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[Brightfame52]

We were enemies of God, living by our fallen nature. But to say repentance is not a part of the salvation journey is missing the point.

Salvation has always involved repentance.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

A person who says they believe in Jesus but have no change of heart, still wishes to sin, does not know God.

Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

How does one "obey" Jesus, by putting faith in Jesus, and turning from known sin.

You out in left field

 

[Brightfame52]

One of the blessed truths about reconciliation by the death of Christ which men naturally overlook and even ignore is the that being reconciled to God by the death of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its relevant with non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Thats why when sinners Christ died for are still in nature enemies with God, sinful and ungodly, that's why they are still reconciled to God, because all their sinfulness, disobedience, unbelief, rebellion isn't charged, imputed to them, instead the verdict for them is reconciled to God !23

 

[Brightfame52]

And non imputation of sin which is interrelated to reconciliation, its also interrelated with forgiveness of sins. Paul in his writing to the Romans in Chapt 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So the reconciled while enemies/unbelievers by the death of Gods Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, they dont have their sins against God imputed to them also they have been forgiven of their iniquities ,

This all the while they are in themselves were enemies.23

 

[setst777]

Good day,

Notice the "time" referenced here "Before"

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

It is true the letter is written to beliers and not unbelievers The "us" would refer to believers (now).

But before the foundation of the world there were no believing ones.

In Him

Bill

I have long considered what your contention is.

God chose "us" Christians in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world.

These verses do not say anything about God choosing to give faith to some by regeneration from before the foundation of the world; rather, the Passage plainly states that God chose or elected "us" - the faithful in Christ - to be in him before the foundation of the world. God's plan, before the foundation of the world, was and is to save those who believe in His Son (John 3:16).

Question: Who are the “us” who are blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ (vs. 3)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1; Hebrews 6:11-12).

Question: Who are the “us” God choose to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (vs. 4)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1; John 3:14-18).

Question: Who are the “us” who are predestined for adoption as children according to his good pleasure (vs. 5)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Eph 1:1; Gal 3:26; 1 Cor 1:21).

Question: Who are the “us” whom God freely gives favor in the Beloved (vs. 6)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1).

Question: Who are the “we” and “our” who are redeemed by his blood, and receive forgiveness (vs. 7)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1; John 3:14-18).

Question: Who are “us” whom God makes known the mystery of his will, good pleasure, and purpose (vs. 9)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 2:10).

Question: Who are the “we” who are assigned an inheritance with Christ, and in him (vs. 11)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1; Hebrews 6:11-12).

Question: Who are the ones who have been foreordained according to His purpose and will (vs. 11)?
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1).

Question: Who are the “we” who are to the praise of his glory? (vs. 12)
Answer: “To the saints,” who are “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1), who are also the “we” who had before hoped in Christ, having believed (Ephesians 1:13).

Question: Who are the “you” who were sealed with the Holy Spirit as our seal and guarantee (vs. 13-14)?
Answer: The “you” who receive the Spirit as a guarantee are those who believed (Ephesians 1:13-14).

In the last question and answer, notice that the Spirit will only indwell and seal a person who has first believed. Regeneration (life in the Spirit) is by the Spirit indwelling a person, and the Spirit only indwells a person who first believes. See: John 7:37-39; Romans 8:10-11.

 

[Brightfame52]

@setst777

These verses do not say anything about God choosing to give faith to some by regeneration from before the foundation of the world;

But He did, since He chose them unto salvation. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[zoidar]

@setst777



But He did, since He chose them unto salvation. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Many translations say "as first fruits" instead of "from the beginning". Seems to depend on which manuscript you use.

New International Version
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

 

[setst777]

@setst777



But He did, since He chose them unto salvation. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Who did God choose for salvation according to "2 Thessalonians 2:13"?

Answer: He chose "YOU" the believers in Christ whom he is writing to. God chose the Believers in His Son for salvation. This was God's plan from the beginning.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Many translations say "as first fruits" instead of "from the beginning". Seems to depend on which manuscript you use.

New International Version
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

It doesnt change anything, its still God showing preference above others. The word is haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

 

[Brightfame52]

Who did God choose for salvation according to "2 Thessalonians 2:13"?

Answer: He chose "YOU" the believers in Christ whom he is writing to. God chose the Believers in His Son for salvation. This was God's plan from the beginning.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Believers is right, but they were chosen before they were believers, even from the beginning of time. They became believers following the Sanctifying work of the Spirit. Believing/Faith is a product of Sanctification of the Spirit

 

[zoidar]

It doesnt change anything, its still God showing preference above others. The word is haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

What we have to ask is when, how and for what reason God chose these men and women to be saved? Saying God chose them, doesn't say much if we don't answer the other questions.