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Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.I understand! Not much to say, more than you don't believe we are saved by faith, since you say we are saved prior to faith, even the Bible is abundantly clear salvation is by faith.
You have said plenty that does not agree with Scripture, and you have proven that you don't really care what Scripture says unless you can twist it to fit with your preconceptions and Calvin's false doctrine. So you are correct that we do not pay attention to the falsehoods you post.Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.
I meant "I" don't have much to say about it.Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.
I have testified to scripture, those for whom Christ died, by His Death, they were reconciled to God, even while they were unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10You have said plenty that does not agree with Scripture, and you have proven that you don't really care what Scripture says unless you can twist it to fit with your preconceptions and Calvin's false doctrine. So you are correct that we do not pay attention to the falsehoods you post.
OkayI meant "I" don't have not much to say about it.
"Those for whom Christ died" includes EVERY SOUL THAT HAS EVER, OR WILL EVER, LIVED. There is not a single soul for which He did not die (1 John 2:2). And we have already agreed that not every person will be saved. So while the saved and the unsaved were all enemies, Christ died for all of us. Yet only those who believe in Him (John 3:16) and obey Him (Heb 5:9) will receive the benefit of being reconciled to Him. You can continue to debate all day long, but it is God with whom you disagree, and God whom you are defying.I have testified to scripture, those for whom Christ died, by His Death, they were reconciled to God, even while they were unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Its simple, He died for them that are reconciled to God, now is everyone whoever lived reconciled to God ?"Those for whom Christ died" includes EVERY SOUL THAT HAS EVER, OR WILL EVER, LIVED. There is not a single soul for which He did not die (1 John 2:2). And we have already agreed that not every person will be saved. So while the saved and the unsaved were all enemies, Christ died for all of us. Yet only those who believe in Him (John 3:16) and obey Him (Heb 5:9) will receive the benefit of being reconciled to Him. You can continue to debate all day long, but it is God with whom you disagree, and God whom you are defying.
Like stated, if Christ died for a person, they are reconciled to God.Most never are.
The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation in behalf of ,is a Justified World, because God has been propitiated for it, in the same manner that God had been propitiated towards the Publican in the story of Christ Lk 18:13-14Preaching Reconciliation ! cont
Something to know about legal and objective reconciliation of the Elect, and that is this, that all the Elect while being enemies to Christ and God, are nevertheless legally still reconciled, received into God's Favor up until they are born again by the Spirit, or saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10b. This means, but I do not teach it from scripture, but it does mean if an elect person were to die before new birth, that they would still be saved from the penalty of their sins, by the blood of Christ, that they would die objectively and legally reconciled into God's Favor by Christ's Death alone ! All of the sin and enmity the Elect by Nature have against God, while they are yet unconverted , and alienated from the life of God, and yes unbelievers, all that has been satisfied for by the blood of Christ ! In fact legal and objective reconciliation by Christ's Death Alone is that Propitiation John writes of in 1 Jn 2:2 !
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation:
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted."
The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is a world that has all of its sins remitted or covered. Like David said about the blessed Man Ps 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven or remitted, whose sin is covered.
Thats the blessing of Legal Reconciliation/ Propitiation !
So whats your point ? Explain the verse or why post it ?Hebrews 10:29
Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
To me 1 John 2:2 says Jesus made propitiation/atonement for the whole world, that whoever believes will be reconciled to God. So it's not an universal reconciliation we are talking about. At least not from my perspective. However there is a universal sacrifice for all sin in the whole world.The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation in behalf of ,is a Justified World, because God has been propitiated for it, in the same manner that God had been propitiated towards the Publican in the story of Christ Lk 18:13-14
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
That word merciful is the greek word hilaskomai and means:
to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for
The noun form of the same word is found in 1 Jn 2:2
hilasmos:
an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
Now Jesus enlightens here, that a sinner for whom God is propitiated for is a Justified person before God:
"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified "
The word Justified is the greek word:dikaioō:
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
So those who appeal ignorantly to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove that Christ died for the Whole World without exception, you are teaching falsely universalism, and that the whole World without exception has been declared Righteous before God ! 2
Obviously I believe you are wrong.To me 1 John 2:2 says Jesus made propitiation/atonement for the whole world, that whoever believes will be reconciled to God. So it's not an universal reconciliation we are talking about. At least not from my perspective. However there is a universal sacrifice for all sin in the whole world.
Reconciliation of a person and propitiation for sin are two different things. Propitiation is about what the sacrifice does to sin generally (atoning for sins) and reconcilation is what the sacrifice has done through the propitiation to a believer.
I agree justification and reconciliation is basically the same thing. You however believe justification happens before faith and I believe justification happens after (or similtaneously) as faith.Reconciliation = Justification !
Many who are in the dark on the blessed effects of the death of Christ, by not realizing, and rejecting the Truth that reconciliation to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10 is the same exact thing "as now being Justified by His Blood" Rom 5:9 !
Again, with the Christian gospel justification is not merely declared; righteousness is actually given. And necessary. This directive, for example, has not changed one iota with the new covenant:Reconciliation = Justification !
Many who are in the dark on the blessed effects of the death of Christ, by not realizing, and rejecting the Truth that reconciliation to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10 is the same exact thing "as now being Justified by His Blood" Rom 5:9
Thats why we differ, you are in error, grave error, and Im showing why.I agree justification and reconciliation is basically the same thing. You however believe justification happens before faith and I believe justification happens after (or similtaneously) as faith.
Promoting works salvation, conditioned on man, a rabbit trailAgain, with the Christian gospel justification is not merely declared; righteousness is actually given. And necessary. This directive, for example, has not changed one iota with the new covenant:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8
The NC empowers us to accomplish this, finally, the right way, God's way, with Him. That's why it's so critical to remain in Him. Our very life depends on that union. And to the extent that we're embroiled in sin/the flesh we've shown that we've already left Him. The Law can never accomplish what God, alone, can and does. In his letter, James was already addressing the foolish idea that faith and personal righteousness could somehow be separated-and that such righteousness was no longer necessary under the new covenant. Righteousness flows from-and can be defined by-the term "love": agape. Right acts flow naturally from that love, which is why, for example, it can be said that love fulfills the law, and why Paul can say in Gal 5:6,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."
And why the church can sum it up simply, yet wisely and profoundly in this teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
That love is the inevitable consequence of fellowship/union with or nearness to God, the union that Adam dismissed.
@Bobber
Being reconciled to God isnt the dead lost sinners responsibility, its Gods Gracious Work, and Christ accomplished the Work, and He applies the Work.
Yes but that's a two part thing above. They went through the process were they obeyed the request "Be you reconciled to God" and they did that. They were able to do that and do their part in obeying the reconciling request because Jesus death it made the way for them to reach out by faith and do that.Those who are reconciled to God by His Death are also saved by His Life. Read the verse Rom 5:10
No he does not have to be saved before he obeys the request to be reconciled to God. None of that would make sense! You would have it he's saved and now must be reconciled to God. You say that because of your Calvinism. None of that makes sense. If Paul says be you reconciled to God one is not saved until they do this.The reconciled sinner must be saved,
Now look at what you've just done. You're rolling out a whole discourse it appears to get around a request Paul made, "BE YOU RECONCIED TO GOD" You don't want to acknowledge it states this is something MAN, yes MAN is required to do. In your last line above you try to bring on through your reasoning by injecting a very precious word the word GRACE and in the way you say it leaves the impression who would question that salvation isn't a thing of God's goodness.meaning the Spiritual Benefits of Christs Death must be applied to the already legally reconciled. he must be made to acquire and enjoy the salvation that God has willed for him by Christ. He must be converted in heart and life from a dead, unbelieving, and disobedient sinner to a living, believing, and obedient child of God. The power of God that works this radical change in the sinner is grace.
When the sinner is told to BE YOU reconciled to God it IS the sinners responsibility. Even look at the fulness of what Paul stated,None of this is the sinners responsibility, but Christs the Saviour.
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