Reciting Hail Mary

[Albion]

As a side note, the point of the Hail Mary is not to meditate on her. It's just to honour her. Saying that it is means you really don't get latria verses dulia.

It's a prayer addressed TO her, and assumes that she can both hear it and act as our advocate. In the words of the liturgy, Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate."

However, I see no reason to fight over it; we can and do hold different views, that's all.

 

[juleamager]

It's a prayer addressed TO her, and assumes that she can both hear it and act as our advocate. In the words of the liturgy, Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate."

However, I see no reason to fight over it; we can and do hold different views, that's all.

The concept in my eyes is not that she advocates for us. We petition her to pray for us. She doesn't go before the throne of God and asks God to grant us things. No, she prays for us, and for the Holy Church in general.

Christ is the only Mediator and Advocate, but the Virgin Mary, His Mother, is the Help of Christians and prays for us when we ask her to respectfully and reverently. But, yeah, sorry if I offended you or anything, I caught myself being rude towards the end of things.

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

What and nasty and hateful thing to say.

let's see if you still feel that way.... So by me saying your popes will be with the goats - I am saying they have no salvation correct....

But yet the RCC teaches that there is NO SALVATION outside the RCC...

So in effect they are saying all believers in Eph 2:8 outside the RCC hath NO SALVATION and that would make them with the goats....


Yes what a nasty thing to say indeed!

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Christ is the only Mediator and Advocate, but the Virgin Mary, His Mother, is the Help of Christians and prays for us when we ask her

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

then this would make the verse that says:

there is one mediator BETWEEN GOD and MAN (a lie)
by adding Mary you are making her a mediator between you and God or you and Christ and that's NOT what God says is correct.... If you were to read the bible for the first time you'd never come up with Mary as part of this....

 

[kellhus]

Christ is the only Mediator and Advocate, but the Virgin Mary, His Mother, is the Help of Christians and prays for us when we ask her

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

then this would make the verse that says:

there is one mediator BETWEEN GOD and MAN (a lie)
by adding Mary you are making her a mediator between you and God or you and Christ and that's NOT what God says is correct.... If you were to read the bible for the first time you'd never come up with Mary as part of this....

Can you not read? He specifically said he wasn't adding Mary as a mediator.

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

It's a prayer addressed TO her, and assumes that she can both hear it and act as our advocate. In the words of the liturgy, Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate."

However, I see no reason to fight over it; we can and do hold different views, that's all.

Well it IS a big deal think about it.... If God says This is the way it works and you do it Another way - then will God honor such things?

No ofcourse not - god honors His word as He says it Not as it's been corrupted.. What do we think when Catholics ask priest to forgive their sins?

Does not the word teach ONLY God can forgive sin - so then are their sins forgiven? How could they be since again they do not follow what the word says but what traditions of man has taught which is foolshness to God

who can forgive sins but God alone (mark 2:7 Luke 5:21)

this is NOT the same as forgiving those who sinned against YOU.

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Can you not read? He specifically said he wasn't adding Mary as a mediator.

Maybe you should go see what the word MEDIATOR means:

it's a intercessor - a go between (strongs 3316 mesites) from 3319 mesos (to go before them)

so the Word of God calls Jesus a mediator and by praying to Mary you are using her as a go between - a mediator if you will...

No I read fine - you just don't what your talking about is all...

By praying to Mary she becomes a mediator NO MATTER how you say your doing what - it is a mediator - period

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

let's see if you still feel that way.... So by me saying your popes will be with the goats - I am saying they have no salvation correct....

But yet the RCC teaches that there is NO SALVATION outside the RCC...

So in effect they are saying all believers in Eph 2:8 outside the RCC hath NO SALVATION and that would make them with the goats....


Yes what a nasty thing to say indeed!

it seems that you forgot this one - skipped right over it.. Oh I forgot Hateful too!

There's also the difference that I'm teaching Jesus is ENOUGH for salvation and your RCC says Nope that's not true - and they then add themselfs to eph 2:8

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Don't you understand?

God says: man---->Jesus---->God= 1 mediator
RCC says: man---->mary---->Jesus---->God= 2 mediators

is NOT the Same....

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

A guy wants to ask a girl out but is afraid to, so he calls a friend and ask his friend to ask her for him... His friend is a mediator

then the guy ask another friend to call the girl - this friend is also a mediator

Anyway you slice it...

 

[kellhus]

Maybe you should go see what the word MEDIATOR means:

The same to you. Please look it up in the dictionary. Mediation and intercession are not the same thing, and frankly nobody is taking your anti-RCC rantings seriously.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a prayer addressed TO her, and assumes that she can both hear it and act as our advocate. In the words of the liturgy, Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate."

However, I see no reason to fight over it; we can and do hold different views, that's all.

If Christ is our only mediator and advocate, i suppose it's un-Christian to go get a lawyer? Obviously, we can be too precise with our language, especially in matters of religion, where language is often figurative and intentionally imprecise, meant to be evocative rather than technical. I don't think conservative Anglicans imply that we shouldn't seek help from others. Likewise, I don't think Roman Catholics are implying that outside of Christ there is any mediator between God and man.

 

[Albion]

If Christ is our only mediator and advocate, i suppose it's un-Christian to go get a lawyer?

If he tries to negotiate with God on your behalf, yes. He'd be acting as a medium in that case, wouldn't he?

I don't think conservative Anglicans imply that we shouldn't seek help from others.

Nor did I.

Likewise, I don't think Roman Catholics are implying that outside of Christ there is any mediator between God and man.

Why do you think that wording is in our liturgy, then? Of course RCs don't see anything wrong with it, but that doesn't make the practice right.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why do you think that wording is in our liturgy, then? Of course RCs don't see anything wrong with it, but that doesn't make the practice right.

Reformation anti-Catholic polemics. Catholics don't see the Virgin Mary or any other saint as having mediatorship outside of Christ. Any Christian may pray for another Christian and the belief has more to do with the Communion of Saints indivisibility than with the (false) idea that somehow Roman Catholics think the Virgin Mary is a superhuman creature.

 

[Albion]

Reformation anti-Catholic polemics.

Regardless, it recognizes a significant doctrinal disagreement.

Catholics don't see the Virgin Mary or any other saint as having mediatorship outside of Christ.

Unfortunately, they do. Check out many of these prayers and you will find that they explicitly say that the saint can deliver, has never been known to fail, etc. It is not possible to claim that they are only asking for prayers.

Any Christian may pray for another Christian

That's not what we're discussing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Unfortunately, they do. Check out many of these prayers and you will find that they explicitly say that the saint can deliver, has never been known to fail, etc. It is not possible to claim that they are only asking for prayers.
.

I don't think that contradicts the idea that the saint is only a mediator through prayer. There is experience in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism of the Virgin Mary indeed "not failing to deliver" and that is part of Holy Tradition. Maybe the issue is thinking of salvation in strictly juridical terms and using Aristotilian logic in an area that it does not apply. The prayer language of Catholic Christianity is not meant to be precise or scientific any more than taking Jesus words "call no man father" means that we cannot call priests "Father" as a term of respect.

 

[Tangible]

I've seen multiple instances of statements made on CF to the effect that Jesus must do everything Mary asks of him because she is his mother. Such an idea that Jesus is subject to any human authority is frankly unchristian.

Add to that the insistence upon a sinless Mary and you have all the ingredients needed for defacto worship of Mary no matter what you call it in Latin.

 

[juleamager]

I've seen multiple instances of statements made on CF to the effect that Jesus must do everything Mary asks of him because she is his mother. Such an idea that Jesus is subject to any human authority is frankly unchristian.

Add to that the insistence upon a sinless Mary and you have all the ingredients needed for defacto worship of Mary no matter what you call it in Latin.

Okay, two things. I'm not Catholic, by the way, I'm Eastern Orthodox. First, Our Lady doesn't ask Our Lord for anything. We petition her reverently and respectfully through prayer to pray for us.

Second, the Virgin Mary wasn't sinless, we Eastern Orthodox reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. I'd also like to make you known that Martin Luther believed that Our Lady never sinned, you can go and read his own writing and see.

 

[Albion]

I don't think that contradicts the idea that the saint is only a mediator through prayer.

Then we disagree.

I've seen multiple instances of statements made on CF to the effect that Jesus must do everything Mary asks of him because she is his mother. Such an idea that Jesus is subject to any human authority is frankly unchristian.

Add to that the insistence upon a sinless Mary and you have all the ingredients needed for defacto worship of Mary no matter what you call it in Latin.

An excellent explanation.

Okay, two things. I'm not Catholic, by the way, I'm Eastern Orthodox. First, Our Lady doesn't ask Our Lord for anything. We petition her reverently and respectfully through prayer to pray for us.

Then are you prepared to admit that the Roman Catholic practice is as we described it, although Orthodox Christians have a different POV?

Second, the Virgin Mary wasn't sinless, we Eastern Orthodox reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. I'd also like to make you known that Martin Luther believed that Our Lady never sinned, you can go and read his own writing and see.

We don't consider Martin Luther, as important and inspiration as he was, to be infallible--nor did he. It is the word of God that governs what's right and what's wrong with that which we are discussing.

 

[Tangible]

Okay, two things. I'm not Catholic, by the way, I'm Eastern Orthodox. First, Our Lady doesn't ask Our Lord for anything. We petition her reverently and respectfully through prayer to pray for us.

Second, the Virgin Mary wasn't sinless, we Eastern Orthodox reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. I'd also like to make you known that Martin Luther believed that Our Lady never sinned, you can go and read his own writing and see.

Again, we have no sure and certain word of scripture telling us that Mary can hear or know what we on Earth say or do. Why put your faith in a wish or a guess when God the Father as promised to hear and answer our prayers prayed through the intercession of Jesus Christ? Why introduce uncertainty in our prayers?

Luther wrote many things over the course of his life. Early writings reflect his upbringing and education in the Medieval Roman Church. As the truth of God's Word became evident to him through careful study of Scripture over time, these unscriptural vestiges were set aside.

FWIW, we don't consider Luther to be infallible in any way. As with all writers and teachers of the Church throughout history, we appreciate the light he shed on our way when it agrees with the witness of Holy Scripture, but must set aside anything that is in conflict.