Reciting Hail Mary

[sonshine234]

Yeah Thats the reason.... You caught me!

Yes, you spout heresy like a pro.

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Ah, I see you don't know the Bible, tells me everything

Ok sonshine show me this cloud of saints around us - if this verse isn't in the True King James version then I won't have it but I can still defeat it with that!

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Yes, you spout heresy like a pro.

again No scripture huh sonshine? Your church has no hold on me in this life or the one to come.... I will be with the lambs and your popes will be with the goats...... I can back up using scripture anything I say otherwise I don't say it.

Hersey huh - too funny - call the inqusitioner at once!


Don't worry the pope will bring the universal church together with all religions and then he'll get to do all those cool things he's always wanted to do

you'll be in your glory then won't you

 

[kellhus]

will be with the lambs and your popes will be with the goats......

What and nasty and hateful thing to say.

 

[sonshine234]

He just a troll

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Still you come at me with words - you never reply to the Scripture you've been given

show me where I have lied?


I guess trolls are those who use scripture against your church and you..

So answer Scripture for once instead of names..... And Heres your chance....


God says there is ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and MAN - the person of JESUS CHRIST!

Jesus is our High Priest and the way the truth the light and NO ONE comes to the Father
BUT BY ME! again Jesus alone - that's what One Mediator and But By Me


No where do we see Mary in any of this - but again God says one thing and the RCC says and does another is spite of the fact....

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

What and nasty and hateful thing to say.

No matter how many things I show and will show you, no matter how many times the word says one thing and your church does the opposite, no matter how many pagan symbols your church uses in EVERYTHING it does and displays - no matter that God forbids any Image of anything in heaven on earth or in the sea and your church has them by the truck load


You will never admit this is wrong - so then am I to cozy up to your false teaching church? Your church and you always have a reason as to why yours does different than what the word says time and again.... Do you not see how God told His children when they came into the promise land to destroy all the high places and things that belonged to other Gods but your church not only uses these things in Every Area and even has a collection of all the Gods of other religions and all are created by satan.... Yet again the excuse is the church has these as a sign of the churches victory over these pagan religions Yet we know this isn't truth.... This is why Rev 18:2 says it's a habitation for every foul spirit - everything about the church is harloted from all religions with the start of things in Babylon.... Why which city does this harlot sit that is on 7 hills do you think they are referring to?

 

[Albion]

Having been a Catholic for many years and now a Protestant for several..and looking at the Hail Mary prayer Catholics recite..The first part of the prayer is scriptural..that is the words of the angel Gabriel to Mary as you can see below.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Luke 1:28 "And he [the angel Gabriel] came to her [Mary] and said, 'Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.'"
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.and...


Re: the last part of the traditional "Hail Mary" prayer:


"Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. " In this..
Catholics ask Mary and other saints to intercede for them to God on their behalf, in much the same way Protestants, Jews and many other religions ask other people to pray for them or for loved ones.

But that is NOT "in much the same way." The last part of the Ave is a prayer to a spirit (and, therefore, a highly questionable practice); the other way is merely a request of a neighbor to pray for us.

 

[sonshine234]

Still you come at me with words - you never reply to the Scripture you've been given

show me where I have lied?


I guess trolls are those who use scripture against your church and you..

So answer Scripture for once instead of names..... And Heres your chance....


God says there is ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and MAN - the person of JESUS CHRIST!

Jesus is our High Priest and the way the truth the light and NO ONE comes to the Father
BUT BY ME! again Jesus alone - that's what One Mediator and But By Me


No where do we see Mary in any of this - but again God says one thing and the RCC says and does another is spite of the fact....

If you were smart, which your post prove otherwise you would see I am not Roman Catholic. Yet you assume, no I am not going to play with crazy. You left sane and choose some crazy ideas you will be on ignore because your just not worth my time and effort. Now if you actually get your head out of your nether regions and start studying what others really believe and want to discuss than I would be more than happy to do that but right now debating with an atheist would be preferable than debating someone like you because they do not believe they are better than anyone else like you do.

 

[narnia59]

Again The bible teaches saints are those who are alive believers while you Catholics say that's not true saints are Catholics who have died and did some miracles which the bible NEVER mentions!


Also the dead and living part you quote (in error) is about saints are alive and non believers are dead (to Christ) and not as you use it.

This is also why Jesus says let the dead bury the dead (unbelievers bury unbelievers)

This is also addressed at 1Thess 4:13-14

the bible teaches we sleep until Christ is revealed from Heaven - Paul tells all believers to WAIT with Them - so since Jesus has NOT be revealed from Heaven how do you then call him a liar and say Mary or the pope is in Heaven? Since we sleep - this puts an end to praying to your saints!

I can supply more than 10 verses that say we sleep and I would but would it make you believe different when you found the word taught something other than your RCC? No ofcourse not!

The usage of the term 'sleep' in the New Testament is not an indicator of the state of the soul after physical death, but rather a metaphor for physical death itself. It's a metaphor used to convey the hope Christians have in the temporary nature of our physical death.

So Christ refers both to the daughter of Jairus, and Lazarus as being not dead at all, but asleep. Yet Scripture is clear, especially in the case of Lazarus that they are physically dead. One has to conclude that Christ either is wrong/lying when he says they are not dead but asleep, OR that Christ is using the terminology of their being asleep (not dead) as a metaphor for physical death itself.

Christ does not say they are both dead (physically) AND asleep (their soul). He says they are NOT dead BUT asleep. Since their bodies are indeed physically dead, he's using the "sleep" terminology to demonstrate the temporary nature of physical death. It has nothing to do with the state of their soul.

The NT authors continue to use this same terminology as a metaphor for physical death. Christians whose bodies have died are not referred to as dead, but asleep. They are not 'dead' but 'asleep' because of the hope of the physical resurrection of the body. The term has nothing to do with their soul being in a state of 'sleep'. It's a metaphor for physical death which indicates the promise of the resurrection of the body.

 

[juleamager]

Hail Mary full of grace The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of the womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Have you ever watched EWTN and seen pray the Rosary with Mother Angelica?

I used to watch it religiously, I love Mother Angelica. The reason why she looked so dead is because she had just had a stroke.

My Hail Mary also doesn't look like this. The Orthodox Hail Mary reads, "Theotokos, God-bearing Maid, rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest."

We honour her in the Hail Mary, and we memorise prayers such as the Jesus Prayer, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary so that we can focus on meditating on God when we pray instead of gathering words to pray.

 

[Albion]

I used to watch it religiously, I love Mother Angelica. The reason why she looked so dead is because she had just had a stroke.

My Hail Mary also doesn't look like this. The Orthodox Hail Mary reads, "Theotokos, God-bearing Maid, rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest."

We honour her in the Hail Mary, and we memorise prayers such as the Jesus Prayer, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary so that we can focus on meditating on God when we pray instead of gathering words to pray.

When "meditating on God," I prefer to meditate on Him instead of one of his creatures.

 

[juleamager]

...that's not the point of the Hail Mary.

 

[Albion]

...that's not the point of the Hail Mary.

I've heard that excuse before, but no one can look at the words and honestly say that they are not a tribute to Mary, moreso than to God. You can argue that it's OK to ask a spirit to intercede with God on our behalf (although that's not Scriptural and doesn't in any way improve upon praying to God directly), but not that the "Hail Mary" isn't a devotional that has Mary as the focus.

 

[Tangible]

The simple and faithful response of Mary to God's revealed will for her is indeed very admirable and exemplary. Through her body the incarnate God entered our flesh for our redemption. She is indeed blessed, and as a matter of pious opinion, I believe that she remained a virgin the rest of her life, a sincere act of reverence and devotion given her unique status and vocation.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is a worthy example and inspiration to every Christian. Prayer, however, is an act of faith and trust that is reserved for the one we worship.

Though they are shown to be aware and able to interact and intercede for the Church, we have no promise in scripture that departed saints in eternity (kairos) with God hear our voices or are aware of the events happening on Earth or in time (chronos).

The purpose of the pre-Trent Hail Mary is to focus not on Mary herself but on the incarnation, and as in the Magnificat, to thank God for his blessings and provision for his saints. Though singled out for special status and service by God's divine will, Mary is no more a saint than any believer in Christ, and no less a sinner than any other daughter of Eve.

 

[juleamager]

I've heard that excuse before, but no one can look at the words and honestly say that they are not a tribute to Mary, moreso than to God. You can argue that it's OK to ask a spirit to intercede with God on our behalf (although that's not Scriptural and doesn't in any way improve upon praying to God directly), but not that the "Hail Mary" isn't a devotional that has Mary as the focus.

The fact that you use the word "excuse" shows you don't get the concepts of latria and dulia. It's also very rude on your behalf. The point of the Hail Mary is to pay homage and honour to Our Lady, who's due that respect. It is declared in the Gospel of Saint Luke that all generations will call her Blessed.

She is the focus of the Hail Mary, we speak to her in it, declaring, "Theotokos, God-bearing Maid, rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest."

And, yes, it is both right and scriptural to ask for the intercession of the faithful departed. In Second Maccabees, Judas Maccabeus asks for the intercession and blessing of the prophets for the Jewish army.

 

[Albion]

The fact that you use the word "excuse" shows you don't get the concepts of latria and dulia.

Since you ask, I do know the words and I still think it's an excuse. But you are perfectly free to think otherwise if you wish.

It's also very rude on your behalf. The point of the Hail Mary is to pay homage and honour to Our Lady, who's due that respect. It is declared in the Gospel of Saint Luke that all generations will call her Blessed.

Thank you for dropping the pretense that it is a prayer focused on God rather than Mary.

She is the focus of the Hail Mary, we speak to her in it,

Exactly what I'd said. Therefore, by rights you should be commending me.

declaring, "Theotokos, God-bearing Maid, rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest."

Yes, and anyone who claims that this is somehow addressed to God or focused on him rather than Mary is obviously not correct.

And, yes, it is both right and scriptural to ask for the intercession of the faithful departed. In Second Maccabees, Judas Maccabeus asks for the intercession and blessing of the prophets for the Jewish army.

You are entitled to your own opinion, however it is also the case that:
1. That book is not in the Bible; it's part of the Apocrypha, and
2. Even if it were considered Scripture, the passage in no way approves of the practice of praying to the dead; it merely records that it happened in this particular instance. The OT Hebrews did quite a lot that we as Christians do not feel obligated to imitate.

 

[juleamager]

You are entitled to your own opinion, however it is also the case that:
1. That book is not in the Bible; it's part of the Apocrypha, and

It's not part of the Bible says the Protestants. The vast majority of Christianity, the 1.5 billion Roman and Orthodox Catholics would certainly disagree.

You do realise that the Bible was revised by the Reformation, yes? Original Bibles contained those writings, as far as I know.

My apologies earlier, I must of misread what you said about the Hail Mary.

 

[Albion]

It's not part of the Bible says the Protestants.

And the Hebrews from whom we Christians took the books we call the Old Testament.

 

[juleamager]

And the Hebrews from whom we Christians took the books we call the Old Testament.

The holiday of Hanukkah finds its root in the Maccabeus story, not to mention is it examined by Jewish scholars and is a subject of discussion in Judaism. As a side note, the point of the Hail Mary is not to meditate on her. It's just to honour her. Saying that it is means you really don't get latria verses dulia.