Reciting Hail Mary

[juleamager]

An excellent explanation.

Failure, as I've said so many times already, to understand the difference between petitioning and honouring and paying homage and worship to something is something I've seen too often already.

We ask the saints to pray for us. It's like asking my mother to pray for me to God. We don't worship them. We honour them and ask them for our prayers.

We worship God and give him both glory, worship, and honour, there's a difference, and I'm quite tired of having to explain it every single day.

 

[Albion]

Failure, as I've said so many times already, to understand the difference between petitioning and honouring and paying homage and worship to something is something I've seen too often already.

I was editing as you were writing. Maybe if you go back to my last message it will help you see the point.

We ask the saints to pray for us. It's like asking my mother to pray for me to God. We don't worship them. We honour them and ask them for our prayers.

I agree that we had Roman Catholic practice primarily in mind when explaining what's wrong. You can go on exempting yourself from the criticism, and that's fine, however there is no question but that many people DO think and act in the wrongful way we pointed to.

 

[juleamager]

Then are you prepared to admit that the Roman Catholic practice is as we described it, although Orthodox Christians have a different POV?

I am. As long as we don't do this generalisation of views on Mariology and Hagiography, I don't have any issue. I would just rather we stop doing the generalisation.

We don't consider Martin Luther, as important and inspiration as he was, to be infallible--nor did he. It is the word of God that governs what's right and what's wrong with that which we are discussing.

I wasn't saying you do, I just wanted to point out that Luther did say that.

 

[juleamager]

I agree that we had Roman Catholic practice primarily in mind when explaining what's wrong. You can go on exempting yourself from the criticism, and that's fine, however there is no question but that many people DO think and act in the wrongful way we pointed to.

And I'd agree, the ideas such as "Totus Tuus, I am totally yours, Mary" are heretical and exalting her to the level of Christ. We should be saying, "Totus Tuus, I am totally yours, Christ."

 

[juleamager]

Again, we have no sure and certain word of scripture telling us that Mary can hear or know what we on Earth say or do. Why put your faith in a wish or a guess when God the Father as promised to hear and answer our prayers prayed through the intercession of Jesus Christ? Why introduce uncertainty in our prayers?

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, I would point to Second Maccabees, which states that Judas Maccabeus had a vision of Onias and Saint Jeremiah praying for the entire Jewish community. In our view, that means they were aware of the events occurring and were praying for their safety.

Revelation also depicts the prayers of all the saints being offered as incense onto God. Then, coals and put in that same censor, with thunder, lightning, and earthquakes, symbols of divine power and possibly answered prayers, raining down on the earth.

 

[Albion]

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, I would point to Second Maccabees, which states that Judas Maccabeus had a vision of Onias and Saint Jeremiah praying for the entire Jewish community. In our view, that means they were aware of the events occurring and were praying for their safety.

You are entitled to believe whatever you choose to, and that is--as you said--your tradition. But there are two serious weaknesses in it.

1. This was alleged to have been a vision.

2. Praying FOR us is not the issue. US praying to them is.

Revelation also depicts the prayers of all the saints being offered as incense onto God.

Same thing as above. We haven't been discussing whether those in heaven pray for us but whether we should pray to them.

 

[Tangible]

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, I would point to Second Maccabees, which states that Judas Maccabeus had a vision of Onias and Saint Jeremiah praying for the entire Jewish community. In our view, that means they were aware of the events occurring and were praying for their safety.

See Albion's excellent response.

Also, we do not build doctrine on books not unanimously regarded as Scripture (antilegomena) but only the unanimously accepted books (homologoumena). We then look for support of these doctrines, first from the antilegomena, then from non-scriptural historical sources such as the apocrypha and the writings of the ECFs.

To base such a pervasive doctrine and common practice on a passage from an apocryphal book which would have to be considered to trump passages found in the homologoumena and supported by the antilegomena is very poor hermaneutical practice to say the least.