Recant

[Rae]

Do you serve your gods, or do they simply serve your purpose?

Right back at you.

I willingly give my life up, I don't wnat it back, and I trust my Father.

Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.

So who's veiw is truely selfish?

 

[]RiSeN[]

Right back at you.

Right back at me? What? Im telling you that i will serve my God if it costs me my life. This question was answered before you asked it. Which is why i asked you the question. Answer?

Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.

And who might these gods be?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Many of the first through fourth century faithful actually looked forward to dying for the Faith and earning the eternal crown of martyrdom. The early Church actually grew faster during times of persecution so much so that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Faith and their persecutors marvelled at this testamony to their faith. It is said that Ignatius of Antioch could hear Christ calling him as he rushed forward with enthusiasm to the lions in the colosseum. I can only hope that Christ would grant me that kind of Faith and courage if I ever have the opportunity to die for Him.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Many of the first through fourth century faithful actually looked forward to dying for the Faith and earning the eternal crown of martyrdom. The early Church actually grew faster during times of persecution so much so that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Faith and their persecutors marvelled at this testamony to their faith. It is said that Ignatius of Antioch could hear Christ calling him as he rushed forward with enthusiasm to the lions in the colosseum. I can only hope that Christ would grant me that kind of Faith and courage if I ever have the opportunity to die for Him.

God bless you, brother.

 

[joebudda]

And how exactly do you think that being a christian is slacking off in the carnal life?

My comment wasn’t directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.

Such a belief creates the condition to not care much about life, both in the personal and other people’s lives. It creates the condition where making oneself better off or happier is trivial compared to this supposed other life. Such a belief can be damaging and dangerous when the only life we know for sure we have isn’t as important as some fairytale.

Christians are not supposed to judge either way.

Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.

From my perspective it is the Christians that are the most judgmental. Being my father is gay and I have three gay cousins I hear more then my fair share of overly judgmental Christians.

So you can belief all you wish that Christians are not suppose to judge, but from by perspective it seems to be more of a “want it to be” then what the reality actually is.

 

[]RiSeN[]

My comment wasn’t directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.

Such a belief creates the condition to not care much about life, both in the personal and other people’s lives. It creates the condition where making oneself better off or happier is trivial compared to this supposed other life. Such a belief can be damaging and dangerous when the only life we know for sure we have isn’t as important as some fairytale.



Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.

From my perspective it is the Christians that are the most judgmental. Being my father is gay and I have three gay cousins I hear more then my fair share of overly judgmental Christians.

So you can belief all you wish that Christians are not suppose to judge, but from by perspective it seems to be more of a “want it to be” then what the reality actually is.

I apologize for the judgement that has been passed on you or your loved ones, there are many among christianity who misslead, and many wolves in sheeps clothing. But there are good christians thought they be few in number.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

My comment wasn’t directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.

If that wasen't directed towards any body, what was the point?

Such a belief creates the condition to not care much about life, both in the personal and other people’s lives. It creates the condition where making oneself better off or happier is trivial compared to this supposed other life. Such a belief can be damaging and dangerous when the only life we know for sure we have isn’t as important as some fairytale.

So it was directed towards the poeple with belief A.K.A. christians, why deny that? Christains are called to be ministers to others, that may seem limited to you, but what you might consider important(exp. possestions) chritians find trivial.

Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.

How do you know that all judge? I can see how it would be hard for you to understand, in order to be capable of not judging someone you need Gods grace for such.

From my perspective it is the Christians that are the most judgmental. Being my father is gay and I have three gay cousins I hear more then my fair share of overly judgmental Christians.

Judgeing a person and condeming a sin, are like night and day, not the same in any respect. If indeed you have seen someone judge that calls themselves a christian they decieve them selves, just so you don't get confused that statment was regarding the act of judgeing, not the person who did it.

So you can belief all you wish that Christians are not suppose to judge, but from by perspective it seems to be more of a “want it to be” then what the reality actually is.

christians struggle with the sinful nature of the human being just as much, if not more than anybody.

 

[joebudda]

If that wasen't directed towards any body, what was the point?

Sharing my thoughts.

So it was directed towards the poeple with belief A.K.A. christians, why deny that? Christains are called to be ministers to others, that may seem limited to you, but what you might consider important(exp. possestions) chritians find trivial.

Once again I wasn’t directing it toward anyone but explaining my interpretation of such a belief.

I was wondering do you always assume knowledge of others such as what they consider to be important?

How do you know that all judge? I can see how it would be hard for you to understand, in order to be capable of not judging someone you need Gods grace for such.

Because we do. You are doing it now by judging my understanding.

Judgeing a person and condeming a sin, are like night and day, not the same in any respect. If indeed you have seen someone judge that calls themselves a christian they decieve them selves, just so you don't get confused that statment was regarding the act of judgeing, not the person who did it.

Once again you are judging who is and isn’t a Christian. By your own definition that isn’t very Christian, is it?

christians struggle with the sinful nature of the human being just as much, if not more than anybody.

As you so eloquently show in this very post.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Under NO circumstances? Do you really believe you could do that? It sounds pretty selfish if you ask me. What if:

You are commanded to recant or your 3 young daughters will be violently raped and tortured in front of you until you do. Maybe for weeks (until they are certain to die from trauma and exhaustion). Imagine their desperate pleas for help looking at you to save them from unimaginable pain and agony.
What do you do?

If you really think you would not recant, I don't think you are human. In fact, I think you would spend some time in jail for such a thing.

I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.

If a loved one was under threat, I'd recant immediately. It's only if my own life is in danger that I'd refuse.

But then again, I also have other loyalties to consider -- not least to my fiancée and parents, who would be heartbroken. So perhaps refusing would not be the best idea.

Maybe I'd just recant falsely, get to a safe place (preferably armed), and recant my recantation while laughing in their faces.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.

If a loved one was under threat, I'd recant immediately. It's only if my own life is in danger that I'd refuse.

But then again, I also have other loyalties to consider -- not least to my fiancée and parents, who would be heartbroken. So perhaps refusing would not be the best idea.

Maybe I'd just recant falsely, get to a safe place (preferably armed), and recant my recantation while laughing in their faces.

Thats nice you almost 180* on your position in just 1 post, "The doubt is strong with this one". If you are almost recanting on your position of recanting, the question has been answered.
Your not keeping in mind the motive behind the person asking you to recant.


"Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens; but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it." -Matthew 10:32-39

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Sharing my thoughts.

Ok sounds good to me.

Once again I wasn’t directing it toward anyone but explaining my interpretation of such a belief.

Yes but it is a group of poeple in that beliefe, I'm not sure you can seperate the poeple from thier belief, I'll try to fly with that though.

I was wondering do you always assume knowledge of others such as what they consider to be important?

'Always' hmm, that is such a broad term. If you don't find any importance in it why bother typing it?

Because we do. You are doing it now by judging my understanding.

I am questioning your understanding, are you judgeing my motive?

Once again you are judging who is and isn’t a Christian. By your own definition that isn’t very Christian, is it?

How do you conclude that I am judging who is and isn't a christian, I claim to be a christian, only God can conferm the truth to my claim. to assume that someone is what they say would be more like judging than to conclude nothing.

As you so eloquently show in this very post.

I wouldn't even consider auguing the fact that I may have said something untrue or inaccurate, to know that for sure, I would have to be all knowing.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.

If a loved one was under threat, I'd recant immediately. It's only if my own life is in danger that I'd refuse.

But then again, I also have other loyalties to consider -- not least to my fiancée and parents, who would be heartbroken. So perhaps refusing would not be the best idea.

Maybe I'd just recant falsely, get to a safe place (preferably armed), and recant my recantation while laughing in their faces.

I'm with Fa//en on this one.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Thats nice you almost 180* on your position in just 1 post, "The doubt is strong with this one". Your not keeping in mind the motive behind the person asking you to recant.

Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?

And since I highly doubt this hypothetical situation will ever arise, it isn't as though I need to hurry and make a choice. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I would not recant, but I hadn't considered the effect on my loved ones. To make a sacrifice out of love for my Gods would be the noble thing to do, but not if it means making others suffer as well.

You forget that I am not a Christian. My Gods would not punish or damn me if I were to recant. There's no salvation at stake here. It's a matter of honor and loyalty. But because I am loyal not just to my Gods but also to my loved ones, the issue becomes more complex.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?

And since I highly doubt this hypothetical situation will ever arise, it isn't as though I need to hurry and make a choice. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I would not recant, but I hadn't considered the effect on my loved ones. To make a sacrifice out of love for my Gods would be the noble thing to do, but not if it means making others suffer as well.

You forget that I am not a Christian. My Gods would not punish or damn me if I were to recant. There's no salvation at stake here. It's a matter of honor and loyalty. But because I am loyal not just to my Gods but also to my loved ones, the issue becomes more complex.

There is one God, and one God alone. I don't expect us to ever agree with eachother.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?

Wow, your posts refute themselves, your debating is almost schizophrenic in nature. The idea of the entire thread is exactly if it is a crime to change one's mind, hense the recanting.

And since I highly doubt this hypothetical situation will ever arise, it isn't as though I need to hurry and make a choice. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I would not recant, but I hadn't considered the effect on my loved ones. To make a sacrifice out of love for my Gods would be the noble thing to do, but not if it means making others suffer as well.

There is nothing hypothetical about recanting ones faith.

You forget that I am not a Christian. My Gods would not punish or damn me if I were to recant. There's no salvation at stake here. It's a matter of honor and loyalty. But because I am loyal not just to my Gods but also to my loved ones, the issue becomes more complex.

Your loyal only to yourself as your gods are merely subservant to your selfservice.

 

[wowbagger]

First off, What the ____ is wrong with YOU for making up such a graphic hypothetical? Someone might need some jail time alright.
God and His ways and promises are beyond your logic and reasoning pattern.

I was trying to think of a worst case scenario, where any compassionate human would do ANYTHING to protect their kids.

I guess I was wrong. Some people really believe that a few measly untrue words are worth letting loved ones suffer. I am shocked, though I don't really believe that anyone would really not recant in that scenario- unless they are mentally whacked.

I would recant anything they liked. Sell my soul. Profess undying love for satan. Anything for them not to hurt my babies. They are JUST WORDS!

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I was trying to think of a worst case scenario, where any compassionate human would do ANYTHING to protect their kids.

I guess I was wrong. Some people really believe that a few measly untrue words are worth letting loved ones suffer. I am shocked, though I don't really believe that anyone would really not recant in that scenario- unless they are mentally whacked.

I would recant anything they liked. Sell my soul. Profess undying love for satan. Anything for them not to hurt my babies. They are JUST WORDS!

Maybe for you, they aren't just words to me, they are the only relivant factor in that situation, I am my Gods loyal servent, to recant him would mean that I am unfaithful and untrustworthy, I live for Him not myself, He is put before all.

 

[mshupe1959]

If you understand different peoples sets of beliefs you shouldn't be surprised at the answers. people that don't have a belief in heaven of course would recant. They have no reason not to. Their first and only priority is to save their skins.
as far as they are concerned, this it all there is and there is nothing to look forward to after death. So they might as well stick around as long as possible. Someont that has a strong belief in heaven have the understanding that this life is a fleeting moment, a speck in time compared to the eternity of heaven and no one can get there except through Jesus. So by denying Him we are in essence slitting our spiritual throats. As far as specifically answering..... None of us can really answer since we have never been in that situation. I would like to think that I have it in me to be able to not deny Christ when asked like that. Rachel Scott in Columbine did it, Peter denied Him 3 times..........He was apparently forgiven and later went on to become the apostle that every one else looked to for answers. He later was crucified upside down on a cross because he said he didn't deserve to die as Christ did. He certianly didn't deny Him then..

 

[Lokisdottir]

Wow, your posts refute themselves, your debating is almost schizophrenic in nature.

Ever hear a little thing called "stream of consciousness"? I'm not trying to convince anybody here, since I don't expect a Christian to ever hold the same view as me. I'm merely presenting my thoughts as they occur to me so that one can better truly understand what my feelings are, and in this case, my thoughts tend to conflict. Anyway, I fail to see how the paragraph you quoted is self-contradictory. I said I'm having a difficult time making up my mind -- how is that schizophrenic?

The idea of the entire thread is exactly if it is a crime to change one's mind, hense the recanting.

But one would NOT be changing one's mind. One would merely be lying by offering a false recantation. If you can truly give up your God or Gods with a few mere words, you probably had little loyalty to begin with.

There is nothing hypothetical about recanting ones faith.

You're right, and I can tell you (with no flip-flopping!) that I would not recant except under dire circumstances, which may or may not include the saving of my own life. As I've said over and over, I have not decided what I would do in that particular circumstance.

Your loyal only to yourself as your gods are merely subservant to your selfservice.

Bull. It is my loyalty, both to my Gods and to my family and loved ones, that causes this conflict in the first place. To whom should I fulfill that loyalty if it comes down to a choice between them? To a Christian like you, the choice may seem obvious. But my religion is one that highly stresses the bonds of kinship.