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I've got more coming. Seven on CiC, five on "A Different Gospel" by D. R. McConnell, and four on Justin Peters.
Rebuttal to Christianity in Crisis
- Thread starter Simon the Tanner
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Good stuff STT.
We went around and around about this back in the mid-90s. CiC specifically.
Thanks for sharing.
We went around and around about this back in the mid-90s. CiC specifically.
Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks, Didaskalos. I realize it's a bit late but there was nothing else like this on YouTube and there's a whole generation now that have grown up being fed a bunch of lies by these guys who haven't had the benefit of an opposing viewpoint on YouTube. I have since added a series on Justin Peters and one on D. R. McConnell's book "A Different Gospel".
Jew and Greek
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One of my favorites:
The God Kind of Faith
From:
“E.W.Kenyon, and His Message of Faith THE TRUE STORY”, PG 256
"We've established that many respected Christian leaders of Kenyon's day taught about the "faith of God" and its meaning for the believer. However, one may still ask, "What if they were sincerely wrong? Is there really a basis in the Greek of Mark 11:22 for translating it "the faith of God?"
One author quoted some Greek scholars to prove that the faith teachers are teaching "a truth that has escaped the notice of orthodox Christian scholars for the last two thousand years..” He began his discussion of scholarly opinion with a man he described as "almost universally accepted as the final word on Greek grammar." The man is A. T. Robertson.
He told us of Robertson's findings and assured us that no Greek scholars accept the "faith of God" idea. In his footnote he even cited Robertson's highly respected work A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, page 500, where he quoted Robertson as saying "we rightly translate [Mark 11:22] have faith in God."
Now here is the irony. Robertson was quoted correctly, but incompletely. The whole quote was not given because it would prove embarrassing to the argument. Here is the whole statement from Robertson:
Here again we must appeal to the root idea of the genitive [genitive is the name of one of eight Greek eases that show word relationships] as the case of genus or kind. The resultant idea is due to the context and one must not suppose that the Greek genitive means all the different English prepositions used to translate the resultant idea, Thus in Mark 11:22 [he then gives the Greek phrase] we rightly translate 'have faith in God, though the genitive does not mean 'in,' but only the God kind of faith."
This is amazing! The scholar who is being quoted to disprove the "faith of God" is actually the source of that very phrase that has drawn tremendous criticism to the Faith movement, "Have the God kind of faith." And this critic quoted part of the very sentence in which Robertson said it, and yet argued that "these perversions find no basis in the original Greek!"
Also notice that Robertson describes the Greek case used in Mark 11:22 as the cast that indicates "genus or kind." That is why the following seven sources of Greek scholarship also say the phrase could be understood as referring to the faith of God.
Albert Barnes, S. A. Alexander, and Adam Clarke each say that Mark 11:22 is literally, "Have the faith of God." The Numeric New Testament, The Bible in Basic English, and Godbey's translation all say, "Have God's faith? Douay-Rheims and Worrell give us "Have the faith of God," and Young's Literal Translation offers "Have faith of God." The above-mentioned author told us that this idea is "a truth that has escaped the notice of orthodox scholars for the last two thousand years"!
It's not my intention to "prove" which is the right interpretation of Mark 11:22. I simply want to make it plain that credible Greek scholars have held to the interpretation suggested by the Faith teachers. Too many people have been persuaded otherwise due to scholarly-sounding quotes from experts.
I call this heresy hunting technique "smiting by scholarship!' Most people have a great respect for scholarship and if enough scholars are quoted they will believe whatever is proposed. There are many divergent views among scholars. A little charity in these matters would seem called for. We are all entitled to our opinion and to do our own research. But it is not right to cry "heresy" when someone disagrees with our understanding and then to validate our accusations with one sided documentation.
Writing this book has brought me into contact with the sad realities of apologetics in the church today. Some who call themselves researchers have mastered the ability to quote out of context and to paint a warped view of what others in the body of Christ teach. They can search through vast amounts of orthodox materials and find a sentence or phrase which, quoted out of context and placed side-by-side with a similar sounding phrase from a known heretic, makes the author of the first quote sound like a heretic. Kenyon's writings have been treated in just this manner. (These things should not be so, my brethren, as the apostle Paul said [James 3:10].)"
The God Kind of Faith
From:
“E.W.Kenyon, and His Message of Faith THE TRUE STORY”, PG 256
"We've established that many respected Christian leaders of Kenyon's day taught about the "faith of God" and its meaning for the believer. However, one may still ask, "What if they were sincerely wrong? Is there really a basis in the Greek of Mark 11:22 for translating it "the faith of God?"
One author quoted some Greek scholars to prove that the faith teachers are teaching "a truth that has escaped the notice of orthodox Christian scholars for the last two thousand years..” He began his discussion of scholarly opinion with a man he described as "almost universally accepted as the final word on Greek grammar." The man is A. T. Robertson.
He told us of Robertson's findings and assured us that no Greek scholars accept the "faith of God" idea. In his footnote he even cited Robertson's highly respected work A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, page 500, where he quoted Robertson as saying "we rightly translate [Mark 11:22] have faith in God."
Now here is the irony. Robertson was quoted correctly, but incompletely. The whole quote was not given because it would prove embarrassing to the argument. Here is the whole statement from Robertson:
Here again we must appeal to the root idea of the genitive [genitive is the name of one of eight Greek eases that show word relationships] as the case of genus or kind. The resultant idea is due to the context and one must not suppose that the Greek genitive means all the different English prepositions used to translate the resultant idea, Thus in Mark 11:22 [he then gives the Greek phrase] we rightly translate 'have faith in God, though the genitive does not mean 'in,' but only the God kind of faith."
This is amazing! The scholar who is being quoted to disprove the "faith of God" is actually the source of that very phrase that has drawn tremendous criticism to the Faith movement, "Have the God kind of faith." And this critic quoted part of the very sentence in which Robertson said it, and yet argued that "these perversions find no basis in the original Greek!"
Also notice that Robertson describes the Greek case used in Mark 11:22 as the cast that indicates "genus or kind." That is why the following seven sources of Greek scholarship also say the phrase could be understood as referring to the faith of God.
Albert Barnes, S. A. Alexander, and Adam Clarke each say that Mark 11:22 is literally, "Have the faith of God." The Numeric New Testament, The Bible in Basic English, and Godbey's translation all say, "Have God's faith? Douay-Rheims and Worrell give us "Have the faith of God," and Young's Literal Translation offers "Have faith of God." The above-mentioned author told us that this idea is "a truth that has escaped the notice of orthodox scholars for the last two thousand years"!
It's not my intention to "prove" which is the right interpretation of Mark 11:22. I simply want to make it plain that credible Greek scholars have held to the interpretation suggested by the Faith teachers. Too many people have been persuaded otherwise due to scholarly-sounding quotes from experts.
I call this heresy hunting technique "smiting by scholarship!' Most people have a great respect for scholarship and if enough scholars are quoted they will believe whatever is proposed. There are many divergent views among scholars. A little charity in these matters would seem called for. We are all entitled to our opinion and to do our own research. But it is not right to cry "heresy" when someone disagrees with our understanding and then to validate our accusations with one sided documentation.
Writing this book has brought me into contact with the sad realities of apologetics in the church today. Some who call themselves researchers have mastered the ability to quote out of context and to paint a warped view of what others in the body of Christ teach. They can search through vast amounts of orthodox materials and find a sentence or phrase which, quoted out of context and placed side-by-side with a similar sounding phrase from a known heretic, makes the author of the first quote sound like a heretic. Kenyon's writings have been treated in just this manner. (These things should not be so, my brethren, as the apostle Paul said [James 3:10].)"
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As I showed in the videos, Hanegraaff is a poser. His background was fundraising, not theology or apologetics. He had this book put together within a few years of taking over CRI from the research that other people did, and he made half a million from it. So you can see that he wasn't too concerned about ethics or objectivity.
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There are a lot of mixed reviews on why Hanagraaff switched to Orthodox. Some say he didn't switch and still believes the same way he always believed. There is much "online" about it and I just posted only his comments that he did become a member of the Orthodox Church as said below...
Hank Hanagraaff
“I am now a member of an Orthodox church, but nothing has changed in my faith,” Hanegraaff said. “I have been attending an Orthodox church for a long time—for over two years, really, as a result of what happened when I went to China many years ago.” I started studying what was communicated by the progeny of Watchman Nee with respect to theosis and that drove me back to the early Christian Church.”
He has been diagnosed and is struggling with a rare cancer called Mantle Cell Lymphoma in which he (reportedly) is taking chemotherapy, and apparently... the disease has moved into stage four.“I am now a member of an Orthodox church, but nothing has changed in my faith,” Hanegraaff said. “I have been attending an Orthodox church for a long time—for over two years, really, as a result of what happened when I went to China many years ago.” I started studying what was communicated by the progeny of Watchman Nee with respect to theosis and that drove me back to the early Christian Church.”
Some suggest he had his own crisis of faith possible due to his illness and has retreated into ritualism and mysticism. I'm sure there is some fake news about his reasons of switching faiths, if he even did. It appears that the "whose who" in CRI are expecting him to step down as their president. Hannagraaff, definitely... was not very friendly to the Word/Faith movement.
Looking forward Simon to your next video on this series. Also, Love to hear your comments on McConnell and Justin Peters.
Keep up the good work...
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Enjoy, I will. I just added (38) of your videos in a icon file on my desktop. I pray Simon, you continue on with these series about Word/Faith theology and apologetics. We've tried different times in the last few years only to be stopped or slowed down by one reason or another. This just may help bring back our Word/Faith brothers and sisters over the years that have taken breaks for various reasons... and are long overdue to return. We need all their help... so together, we can help others to "overcome" the times ahead of us.
To all Word/Faith members...
Please think about all the "former" active WoF members [and] the WoF friendly guests that you may have miss their fellowship over the years on this forum. Some of you can go way back beyond ten years. The ones that come to my mind that have blessed me over the past (5) years are...
dkbwarrior, King Zzub, HolySpiritWOF, ABlessedMan, victoryword, PastorMike, Optimax, OldDogDiver, Scottmcc1, CindyisHis, Shepherd1, Jedi-Kep, gennaoanothen, Gxg(G2), franky67, Bob Carabbio, irenemcg, TasManOfGod, alive_again, andreha, probinson, SK8joyful, splat, DMW, Andrea 411, Steeno7, Truthfrees, pdudgeon, psalms91, riverpastor, Trish1947, WilleyCoyote, Glenda, peacechild4.
There are many others... [and] "before" our memories dim and fades on us... Let's keep them in mind [and] also the many other members and friends that we have conversed with that made an impact on our lives (as we ministered, and shared the Love of Jesus Christ with each other). I praise God for these on this list... that, in (some way) have ministered and uplifted myself since I began here in (2012). Sadly, on the list I brought forth I feel at least one or two of them (may) have passed on to glory, and if so... they are greatly missed!
I pray that God touches the hearts of all the remaining past members (still out there)... and hopefully they will return back "home" [and]... to continue on with their love and fellowship that's also greatly missed on our forum. We really do need each other. I could write several chapters in a book on how they all have blessed me over the years. We all could. Please join me in a "prayer of faith" for their return. Let's show the world that WoF is NOT dead and buried as many of our critics are continually saying.
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Greetings to all here ,my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
I do not want to go to far off topic ,but I want to convey what I have observed lately.
Our forum has dropped in participation.
We are not alone,as I have wondered through the variety of other forums here they have dropped as well.
My Pastor was lamenting over Church attendance, and considering passing the Mantel in a year or so.
He thought a younger Pastor could bring in more people.
Thankfully I hope that idea has gone.
If you look at charts on mega Churches their attendance is falling as well, their revenue is holding due to planting more locations.
I can only compare what my experience has been, and have made a decision.
We have had a lot of strange angry people in my work place.
Our customers have increased who are sadistic ,bi polar and narcissistic.
Not all but I have noticed a sizeable increase.
Often it seems like we are under spiritual attack,odd events have taken place.
I have stopped trying to minister ,in helps or even pointing out the joy in Schripture.
No one wants to talk about God,due to theological divide among our group.
From Baptist to mid Acts dispensationism and even a cousin who my prayers for cancer are by faith,his wife
is posting Wicca junk on face book and He agrees.
So to wrap it up, the battle lines are being drawn, those who believe in full Gospel ,and those who are following their own flesh.
I will Wittness when called, but I need the Holy Spirit to guide me and I could sure use your prayers for our lives.
I have never met you face to face but I know you all through the years and have the love of Christ for you all.
Forgive me if I have offended any one in these past years.
I do not want to go to far off topic ,but I want to convey what I have observed lately.
Our forum has dropped in participation.
We are not alone,as I have wondered through the variety of other forums here they have dropped as well.
My Pastor was lamenting over Church attendance, and considering passing the Mantel in a year or so.
He thought a younger Pastor could bring in more people.
Thankfully I hope that idea has gone.
If you look at charts on mega Churches their attendance is falling as well, their revenue is holding due to planting more locations.
I can only compare what my experience has been, and have made a decision.
We have had a lot of strange angry people in my work place.
Our customers have increased who are sadistic ,bi polar and narcissistic.
Not all but I have noticed a sizeable increase.
Often it seems like we are under spiritual attack,odd events have taken place.
I have stopped trying to minister ,in helps or even pointing out the joy in Schripture.
No one wants to talk about God,due to theological divide among our group.
From Baptist to mid Acts dispensationism and even a cousin who my prayers for cancer are by faith,his wife
is posting Wicca junk on face book and He agrees.
So to wrap it up, the battle lines are being drawn, those who believe in full Gospel ,and those who are following their own flesh.
I will Wittness when called, but I need the Holy Spirit to guide me and I could sure use your prayers for our lives.
I have never met you face to face but I know you all through the years and have the love of Christ for you all.
Forgive me if I have offended any one in these past years.
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