Reasonable adjustments

[Catherineanne]

My mum had a fall, and I took her to the GP, and he said that he wanted her to have a scan; this was very worrying.

A couple of days later in church the Gospel was about the man who was possessed of many demons, who met the Lord, and those demons were cast into a herd of pigs nearby and then the pigs ran over a cliff. I am sure everyone knows the story; Luke 8.

At the prayers this was said (not by the Vicar, by another man; N). 'Bearing in mind our Gospel reading for today, we pray for all who are mentally ill.'

I found this deeply distressing, could not take communion, and I left as soon after the blessing as I could. I was sitting next to the Vicar's wife and she knew what was wrong because I had written on my service sheet 'mentally ill =/= demon possession'.

I have Dissociative Identity Disorder, which used to be called multiple personality disorder. I am not Legion, I am just me; fragmented into bits. One person, broken. Nothing to do with demons of any kind.

The Tuesday following this I took my mum for the scan, and it found something very serious. I spent all day with her; at one surgery, then with her own GP, then at the A&E department of the hospital. Overnight she was transferred to another hospital and prepared for emergency surgery.

I texted my Vicar to say what was happening with mum and he rang and said what did I need. I couldn't think of anything at that point so I said you can come and have a cup of tea with me if you want. So he came.

I was beyond exhausted. We talked about mum, but I could tell there was an undercurrent about what happened on Sunday. I read him a text from my cousin about my mum and he said, maybe it was not meant in that tone of voice. I said of course it was not meant in that tone of voice; she is not where I am.

So, because I knew there was an atmosphere I spoke about Sunday, and I explained how difficult it had been. He took it as an attack on N, and said he was not going to take sides against N. I said it is not about taking sides, and he said yes it is; you attacked N. I said, where was the attack? He said, 'You said 'that man said ... ''. (I had forgotten his name.)

He said it was about what was thought long ago; I said no, it is about what was said on Sunday, in your church. It is about an association made then; on Sunday.

After a while my daughter came downstairs and said this really isn't the time; we are about to go to the hospital to see Gran; this isn't the time. Vicar agreed it wasn't the time, but started to put his own point of view again. I just looked at the floor.

Then the Vicar said, 'I'm leaving.' and he got up and walked out. I followed him to the door and said, 'Are you walking out?' and he said, 'I'm leaving.'

Every other time when he has left me he has said, 'God bless you.' There was no such blessing this time.

We went to see mum; she proved to be too unwell for surgery and was sent home the next day. In effect there is nothing to be done; she may live a month, or six months. Or she may die any moment; there is no knowing when.

I emailed the Vicar to explain why those words were so painful and got a note in return saying he was praying for me. I replied to say that prayer is nice, but does not offer a way forward. I asked for reasonable adjustments under disability legislation; I asked that he ensure that if I am in church no connection be made again, however tenuous, in an actual church service between mental health and demon possession. If I am not there they can say what they like; it can't hurt me. I said that study groups etc are fine; he can't control what is said there (and I can reply). But in services, if I am present, can he ensure this does not happen again. I said if the answer is no, then please do not reply. I also said that I am very upset about my mother and not strong enough to go back to church for a while in any case.

A week later, he has not replied. The Vicar thinks himself rather more attuned to mentally ill people than most; he thinks he has some kind of special calling to us. But ...

So I am left without a Vicar or a church, and my mother is very, very unwell. My dad died in January, and we have barely recovered from that, and now this.

I am sure I have not handled this as well as I might have done. But I don't think I am the only one.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, Catherineanne, I am so sorry.

For what it's worth, I think you've handled it very well.

- You have identified what the issue is that is causing you distress
- You have communicated that clearly
- You have suggested a way of dealing with that issue
- You have sought the cooperation of others in doing so.

You didn't have a public temper tantrum. You didn't use this as an opportunity to drag in other issues or make personal attacks. You didn't make unreasonable demands.

Your request might have been a little difficult to accommodate (I don't think many clergy vet the lay-led intercessions beforehand, and I know from experience that just telling people not to do something doesn't mean they listen), but he could at least have tried.

If there's any support we can give you in this online space, please don't hesitate to ask. We might be half a world away, but we won't leave you alone.

On a practical note... I can't remember where you are geographically. But if you don't feel up to trying another parish, maybe make contact with the hospital chaplain where you mum was? Because she was a patient there, they would be used to providing pastoral support to families, and may even have a Eucharist you can get to - and as a bonus it's often a small, quiet congregation. Just a thought?

 

[Catherineanne]

Oh, Catherineanne, I am so sorry.

For what it's worth, I think you've handled it very well.

- You have identified what the issue is that is causing you distress
- You have communicated that clearly
- You have suggested a way of dealing with that issue
- You have sought the cooperation of others in doing so.

You didn't have a public temper tantrum. You didn't use this as an opportunity to drag in other issues or make personal attacks. You didn't make unreasonable demands.

Your request might have been a little difficult to accommodate (I don't think many clergy vet the lay-led intercessions beforehand, and I know from experience that just telling people not to do something doesn't mean they listen), but he could at least have tried.

If there's any support we can give you in this online space, please don't hesitate to ask. We might be half a world away, but we won't leave you alone.

On a practical note... I can't remember where you are geographically. But if you don't feel up to trying another parish, maybe make contact with the hospital chaplain where you mum was? Because she was a patient there, they would be used to providing pastoral support to families, and may even have a Eucharist you can get to - and as a bonus it's often a small, quiet congregation. Just a thought?

Thank you so much, Paidiske.

I have to go out soon, to take my daughter to see a film; we both need cheering up. A lot.

I will reply more later. But thank you for being there. xxx

 

[Goatee]

If i may post here i would like to say that you took it too personal. I suffer with depression etc and what that person said would not have affected me. For me, he was just reminding people to pray for those with mental health issues.

God can speak to us in different ways and i am sure you have just taken it wrongly. Obviously no harm was meant by that person to you personally or anyone else who suffers with mental health issues.

With Gods help and Grace that Bible passage can help all of us in some way. Doesnt mean we are possessed in some way.

As for the way your vicar has behaved, well, as others have said, maybe the Bishop should be informed or better still try and sit down with your vicar again and try and discuss the matter once more first?

 

[pdudgeon]

i agree with all of this.
additionally at this point (since you have diligently tried to reach your pastor and he has not been receptive)
i would write a letter to his bishop detailing all of this.
or just copy and paste your thread here to him, if that's easier.
See what the bishop says first, and give him a chance (probably about a month should be sufficient) for the two of them to touch base.
Working together there may be an accomodation that they can reach in order to minister to your needs at this time.

I would be the first one to agree that not all ministers are prepared to minister to all of their congregation's needs,
but they should either try to do so or else offer another solution or person to help you out.

Also, if your church has a grief support group i would definitely give that a try when you're up to it.

 

[pdudgeon]

If i may post here i would like to say that you took it too personal. I suffer with depression etc and what that person said would not have affected me. For me, he was just reminding people to pray for those with mental health issues.

God can speak to us in different ways and i am sure you have just taken it wrongly. Obviously no harm was meant by that person to you personally or anyone else who suffers with mental health issues.

With Gods help and Grace that Bible passage can help all of us in some way. Doesnt mean we are possessed in some way.

I agree that God can speak to us in different ways, but not everything that comes out of a person's mouth is necessarily what God intended to be said at that moment.
Sometimes God does speak clearly and we are just plain hard of hearing.
Other times the person delivering the message gets in the way of what was originally supposed to be delivered,
and inserts themselves into the equasion which then muddies up the message that comes out as a result.

That's something I've observed more than once during a sermon,
where the point just flew right over the heads of the congregation, and they sang the concluding hymn without making any connection at all to what had just been preached!

So God's clear and true message does get through to one person who is listening and expecting to hear from God that morning, but not to all people because they are not listening and expecting to hear from God.

So if the Gospel was about pigs and demons, the connection to present day medicine should have been made right along with
the earlier deliverance of the man plagued with demons.
In other words sometimes it is demons who do need to be cast out, and sometimes it can be treated medically.
But back then there was no way to differentiate between the two.

both conditions (medical illness and demon possession) do exist today, and they need to be treated differently.
The Catholic church recognizes both conditions, and has the appropriate recomendations in place to effect treatment where necessary.

 

[graceandpeace]

I'm sorry to hear of what you're going through & of what happened with the vicar, the church.

I think as noted you did all of the right things. I'm not sure what you should do from here.
I hope everything works out.

 

[Tigger45]

Oh, Catherineanne, I am so sorry.

For what it's worth, I think you've handled it very well.

- You have identified what the issue is that is causing you distress
- You have communicated that clearly
- You have suggested a way of dealing with that issue
- You have sought the cooperation of others in doing so.

You didn't have a public temper tantrum. You didn't use this as an opportunity to drag in other issues or make personal attacks. You didn't make unreasonable demands.

Your request might have been a little difficult to accommodate (I don't think many clergy vet the lay-led intercessions beforehand, and I know from experience that just telling people not to do something doesn't mean they listen), but he could at least have tried.

If there's any support we can give you in this online space, please don't hesitate to ask. We might be half a world away, but we won't leave you alone.

On a practical note... I can't remember where you are geographically. But if you don't feel up to trying another parish, maybe make contact with the hospital chaplain where you mum was? Because she was a patient there, they would be used to providing pastoral support to families, and may even have a Eucharist you can get to - and as a bonus it's often a small, quiet congregation. Just a thought?

Excellent advice! Great avenue to try

 

[Catherineanne]

Oh, Catherineanne, I am so sorry.

For what it's worth, I think you've handled it very well.

- You have identified what the issue is that is causing you distress
- You have communicated that clearly
- You have suggested a way of dealing with that issue
- You have sought the cooperation of others in doing so.

You didn't have a public temper tantrum. You didn't use this as an opportunity to drag in other issues or make personal attacks. You didn't make unreasonable demands.

Thank you so much. It is good to hear all of that. Inside there is just turmoil and it is difficult to do the right thing.

Your request might have been a little difficult to accommodate (I don't think many clergy vet the lay-led intercessions beforehand, and I know from experience that just telling people not to do something doesn't mean they listen), but he could at least have tried.

I suggested it could be slipped in easily enough under safeguarding training, and because I am not going to return for a while anyway, there is plenty of time.

And, worst case, the Vicar can say something afterwards to undo anything that happens to be said anyway. The silence from a whole church was very difficult to bear.

If there's any support we can give you in this online space, please don't hesitate to ask. We might be half a world away, but we won't leave you alone.

Thank you, that means a very great deal; you have no idea. I am feeling very alone at present.

On a practical note... I can't remember where you are geographically. But if you don't feel up to trying another parish, maybe make contact with the hospital chaplain where you mum was? Because she was a patient there, they would be used to providing pastoral support to families, and may even have a Eucharist you can get to - and as a bonus it's often a small, quiet congregation. Just a thought?

That is a good suggestion. I am not strong enough for church at present, and I know home communion won't be offered (as noted elsewhere, the Vicar considered it before, but decided it was not right for me. Other illnesses get home communion; mine does not. For me it is church or nothing. Anxiety is not treated the same as other illnesses. I don't know why this is, but it is.)

 

[Catherineanne]

i agree with all of this.
additionally at this point (since you have diligently tried to reach your pastor and he has not been receptive)
i would write a letter to his bishop detailing all of this.
or just copy and paste your thread here to him, if that's easier.
See what the bishop says first, and give him a chance (probably about a month should be sufficient) for the two of them to touch base.
Working together there may be an accomodation that they can reach in order to minister to your needs at this time.

I would be the first one to agree that not all ministers are prepared to minister to all of their congregation's needs,
but they should either try to do so or else offer another solution or person to help you out.

Also, if your church has a grief support group i would definitely give that a try when you're up to it.

I know the bishop, so I did email him to say that I have left. I didn't give any details because I know from experience that the default position of the CofE is to think the Vicar is 100% right, and any complaint is unfounded. There is simply no point trying. Also, this is really an internal parish matter; it is up to the Vicar to deal with it.

There was a text from the Vicar yesterday, asking how my mother is. It did not ask how I am. I am afraid I did not reply; I did not know how. There was also an email from the Bishop, which I answered honestly.

It is now up to the Vicar; I have asked for reasonable adjustments, he has yet to reply to that.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm sorry to hear of what you're going through & of what happened with the vicar, the church.

I think as noted you did all of the right things. I'm not sure what you should do from here.
I hope everything works out.

Thank you.

No doubt it will work out one way or another. Meanwhile I will just wait on the Good Lord, and see what he wants for me next.

 

[Catherineanne]

I agree that God can speak to us in different ways, but not everything that comes out of a person's mouth is necessarily what God intended to be said at that moment.
Sometimes God does speak clearly and we are just plain hard of hearing.
Other times the person delivering the message gets in the way of what was originally supposed to be delivered,
and inserts themselves into the equasion which then muddies up the message that comes out as a result.

That's something I've observed more than once during a sermon,
where the point just flew right over the heads of the congregation, and they sang the concluding hymn without making any connection at all to what had just been preached!

So God's clear and true message does get through to one person who is listening and expecting to hear from God that morning, but not to all people because they are not listening and expecting to hear from God.

So if the Gospel was about pigs and demons, the connection to present day medicine should have been made right along with
the earlier deliverance of the man plagued with demons.
In other words sometimes it is demons who do need to be cast out, and sometimes it can be treated medically.
But back then there was no way to differentiate between the two.

both conditions (medical illness and demon possession) do exist today, and they need to be treated differently.
The Catholic church recognizes both conditions, and has the appropriate recomendations in place to effect treatment where necessary.

Yes, demon possession exists. Yes, mental illness exists.

It is the casual connection of the two, without thought for the effect of that on anyone listening, that I object to. Why make such a connection, when we would not associate cancer, or kidney disease, or aortic aneurisms with demon possession? Why do we think it is ok to stigmatise people who are already vastly disadvantaged?

Why is my very real pain at this casual, thoughtless connection regarded as an attack on N? What is that all about?

And why did the Vicar walk out of my house?

 

[Goatee]

Terrible situation you are in. I cannot understand why they won't give you communion at home? Just because you have a different illness? Is that right?

 

[Catherineanne]

Terrible situation you are in. I cannot understand why they won't give you communion at home? Just because you have a different illness? Is that right?

As far as I understand it, yes.

I asked hypothetically before (because if I actually asked and was turned down, the rejection would make me ill, so I asked whether if ... ), and I was told the Vicar considered it, but decided it was not right for me, even if I asked for it.

It is either church or nothing. The only reason that I know of is that this is mental health rather than physical illness, although to be honest the two connect; mh issues lead to severe physical exhaustion. It is that exhaustion which prevents me going to church now, or in the forseeable future. I know I will be too fragile.

 

[Catherineanne]

If i may post here i would like to say that you took it too personal. I suffer with depression etc and what that person said would not have affected me. For me, he was just reminding people to pray for those with mental health issues.

God can speak to us in different ways and i am sure you have just taken it wrongly. Obviously no harm was meant by that person to you personally or anyone else who suffers with mental health issues.

With Gods help and Grace that Bible passage can help all of us in some way. Doesnt mean we are possessed in some way.

As for the way your vicar has behaved, well, as others have said, maybe the Bishop should be informed or better still try and sit down with your vicar again and try and discuss the matter once more first?

I do not think any harm was intended. But that does not mean that what was said was fine; it was not fine.

There is no excuse for connecting people today who are mentally ill with people of 2000 years ago who were possessed by demons. There is no evidence in the Gospel that this link is appropriate, and there is already so much stigma against mentally ill people that we really don't need any more. The metaphor for mentally ill people is Christ on his cross, not someone possessed by demons.

Yes, of course I overreacted. Of course I am oversensitive; DID does that to me. What is your solution to that? Is there actually no place in church for someone 'oversensitive'? Do I have to keep away, and leave everyone to say what they like? Or do I have the right to say, 'excuse me, those words hurt me, and I need to not hear them again'?

Can my point of view be simply discounted without being considered or discussed? Does it mean that everyone else gets to be looked after, but I have to simply put up with anything that is said or done, and keep quiet?

There is supposed to be space for reasonable adjustments for disabled people under UK legislation. I have never asked for any such reasonable adjustment before; this is the very first time. As with home communion, it looks as if those adjustments are for people in wheelchairs, or people with hearing impairment, but not for me.

I don't know why this is, but I do know that it does not help. I only belong in church when I pretend to be fine, and normal, and do not cause any problems of any kind. When I keep quiet.

There is no place for me when I try to speak, to protect myself from harm.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I do not think any harm was intended. But that does not mean that what was said was fine; it was not fine.

There is no excuse for connecting people today who are mentally ill with people of 2000 years ago who were possessed by demons. There is no evidence in the Gospel that this link is appropriate, and there is already so much stigma against mentally ill people that we really don't need any more. The metaphor for mentally ill people is Christ on his cross, not someone possessed by demons.

Yes, of course I overreacted. Of course I am oversensitive; DID does that to me. What is your solution to that? Is there actually no place in church for someone 'oversensitive'? Do I have to keep away, and leave everyone to say what they like? Or do I have the right to say, 'excuse me, those words hurt me, and I need to not hear them again'?

Can my point of view be simply discounted without being considered or discussed? Does it mean that everyone else gets to be looked after, but I have to simply put up with anything that is said or done, and keep quiet?

There is supposed to be space for reasonable adjustments for disabled people under UK legislation. I have never asked for any such reasonable adjustment before; this is the very first time. As with home communion, it looks as if those adjustments are for people in wheelchairs, or people with hearing impairment, but not for me.

I don't know why this is, but I do know that it does not help. I only belong in church when I pretend to be fine, and normal, and do not cause any problems of any kind. When I keep quiet.

There is no place for me when I try to speak, to protect myself.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit .... Lord please do not let me offend or confuse with anything I say here.

I am so sorry that you are suffering. And even more sorry that the enemy has managed to capitalize on that suffering as a means to keep you separated from both the Body (ekklesia) and more importantly from the Eucharist. The delight of demons is to cause suffering and to separate us from God in any way they can.

I have learned that Orthodoxy is very much focused on the healing of the human soul, and on doing all we can to help every human soul be united with God, for the sake of love for all and out of honor for the desire of God Himself.

This is not something every parish priest is equipped to handle for every person though. And I do not know if you are open to such things. An Orthodox monastery would be the most likely closest opportunity to find help.

Please understand - I do not wish to be unkind. God's desire is not that we remain broken victims, even though that is how we may be when we come to Him. Such a state puts us too much at the mercy of demons, and turns our focus too much to ourselves. Not that it isn't necessary to focus on oneself sometimes, as I am myself learning right now, but if the focus never moves beyond ourselves, and we never heal our hurts but only nurse them (especially in the case of a wounded soul), then how can we open ourselves to health and withstand the attacks of the enemy?

Please, I hope you receive this in the spirit it is intended. I don't mean to be unkind, and my impulse IS to offer sympathy and compassion, but if nothing beyond that is ever offered - there will be only a temporary comforting and no real healing.

God be with you - I am praying for you.

 

[Goatee]

I do not think any harm was intended. But that does not mean that what was said was fine; it was not fine.

There is no excuse for connecting people today who are mentally ill with people of 2000 years ago who were possessed by demons. There is no evidence in the Gospel that this link is appropriate, and there is already so much stigma against mentally ill people that we really don't need any more. The metaphor for mentally ill people is Christ on his cross, not someone possessed by demons.

Yes, of course I overreacted. Of course I am oversensitive; DID does that to me. What is your solution to that? Is there actually no place in church for someone 'oversensitive'? Do I have to keep away, and leave everyone to say what they like? Or do I have the right to say, 'excuse me, those words hurt me, and I need to not hear them again'?

Can my point of view be simply discounted without being considered or discussed? Does it mean that everyone else gets to be looked after, but I have to simply put up with anything that is said or done, and keep quiet?

There is supposed to be space for reasonable adjustments for disabled people under UK legislation. I have never asked for any such reasonable adjustment before; this is the very first time. As with home communion, it looks as if those adjustments are for people in wheelchairs, or people with hearing impairment, but not for me.

I don't know why this is, but I do know that it does not help. I only belong in church when I pretend to be fine, and normal, and do not cause any problems of any kind. When I keep quiet.

There is no place for me when I try to speak, to protect myself.

Yes, you probably did overreact in church but that is understandable due to your condition. I suffer with depression and anxiety but i may react differently but thats because we are all different. I can see that in all probability no harm was meant to anyone in the church. At least i hope that is right otherwise i would be looking for another place of worship!

In our church we have people with all different kinds of issues. I have been an EHMC and i know that distribution is to anyone regardless of type of illness. I know as i have been out giving communion myself.

Sad state of affairs when some are excluded from communion!!

 

[Fish and Bread]

Since the Church of England is a state church, with the Queen both the head of the church and the head of the government in some mostly ceremonial respects, could you sue over this? I am not necessarily recommending that you do, I'm just wondering if it might be an option in your situation given exactly which church this is in which country. There are in some countries special protections that extend to how government employees must deal with disabled persons that go above and beyond what protections exist in terms of how private businesses or independent religious organizations must deal with disabled persons. Since in some senses the Church is a government institution in this case, one might consider the priest a government employee and thus...

It's just a thought. I have no idea how British law works in that regard.

 

[Goatee]

Since the Church of England is a state church, with the Queen both the head of the church and the head of the government in some mostly ceremonial respects, could you sue over this? I am not necessarily recommending that you do, I'm just wondering if it might be an option in your situation given exactly which church this is in which country. There are in some countries special protections that extend to how government employees must deal with disabled persons that go above and beyond what protections exist in terms of how private businesses or independent religious organizations must deal with disabled persons. Since in some senses the Church is a government institution in this case, one might consider the priest a government employee and thus...

It's just a thought. I have no idea how British law works in that regard.

Sorry but typical American idea.....'Sue!' This is something that in all probability has been blown out of all proportion! Yes, people should be careful what they say but where does it stop? Who is the 'Minister' going to offend next? Its a very delicate situation indeed. Some are more sensitive and vulnerable than others but where does one draw the line in church?

 

[Fish and Bread]

Sorry but typical American idea.....'Sue!' This is something that in all probability has been blown out of all proportion! Yes, people should be careful what they say but where does it stop? Who is the 'Minister' going to offend next? Its a very delicate situation indeed. Some are more sensitive and vulnerable than others but where does one draw the line in church?

I'm just presenting it as an idea. I have no opinion as to whether or not she should go down that path. I'm just brainstorming in terms of what options she might have.

The path of least resistance might be to see if some other parish might be easier to attend with her condition, or offer to deliver her communion, but I don't know if that's going to be possible within the Church of England, because parishes may serve dedicated areas where, sure, you can show up and attend Sunday Eucharist services at any parish you want, but you may not be able to get services (in the non-church sense of the word) like communion for the sick at home from any parish you want. I'm not sure, honestly.

If it's not possible for her to do that, another option might be to look into churches not affiliated with the Church of England, but I am reluctant to recommend that in this situation. But it's a potential option depending on how she feels about that practically and theologically.

I'm just trying to toss ideas out there. If I had a solid recommendation, I'd be clear that I was recommending it. Here, I'm not recommending anything, just seeing if we can come up with a solution that works for her, maybe even from someone seeing what I come up with and then that triggering a thought in their heads that would work better. You never know how a thread will go.