Really? Trinity?

[Viren]

you say God the father is the one true God, then you make a list of everyone who is God, and to you it's like 'what's the problem?"

I don't think it's possible to get through to anyone on this point.

You're making God into just a personality again even though his nature is being or Spirit. According to John 17:5 the person Jesus was preexistent with the Father before the world began.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

So here we can see the person Jesus talking about the Glory he shared with the Father before creation.

and by saying that Jesus is born of god's spirit you are denying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Of course you admit that Jesus is come in the flesh. You just don't realize that you have contradicted yourself.

Jesus is the son of God, born of Mary's seed and Mary's egg. God created a seed in mary and used it to begat Jesus with. Thus Jesus is come in the flesh. you have spirit beggeting flesh, resulting in spirit, which is a big no no.

John 4:2 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

John 4:3 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

confessing that Jesus is come in the spirit is not of God. You say he is come in the spirit by saying he was born of the spirit.

2 John 1:7

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


confessing that Jesus is come in the spirit makes one a deceiver.


saying Jesus is come in the spirit is the spirit of the antichrist.

Jesus is come in the flesh, he is and was a man, Jesus did not come in the spirit. Jesus is a man right now.


1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is, not was, one God AND the man Christ Jesus.

Yeah, Jesus or the Word was manifest in the flesh. I never disagreed with that. Also, if Jesus is God's only begotten son and God is Spirit. Would he also be of Spirit?

 

[katerinah1947]

When one looks at history we find many major religion's that have been started from angel's. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Islam and almost anything new is no exception to this. The whole New Age movement receives their information from Spirit guides through channeling and automatic writing. The psychics also receive their impressions by familiar spirits who would be identified as fallen angels. One could even say Christianity has been started from the angel Gabriel who brought the message to Mary, Joseph and the shepherd’s in the field. However, they, nor the apostles did not commune with the angels to get their inspiration for Scripture. Christianity centers on Christ its message content does not come from angels.

There are some Christian healing ministries started by angelic visitations. William Branham at the early age of three and seven had an angel appear to him. In a cave in 1946 this angel appeared and stayed with him giving him the power to discern peoples thoughts and illnesses. In his services he would wait for the angels presence before he could start the meetings. Branham was led away from orthodoxy stating that Trinitarianism was of the devil, that baptism should only be in Jesus name and taught that Eve had sexual relations with the serpent. He taught denominationalism is the mark of the beast and all denominations would be under the world council of church’s by 1977. He later proclaimed himself to be the angel of Revelation 3:14, 10:7. Today there is still about 10,000 Branhamites following his teaching after his death. Those who were influenced when he was alive were W.V. Grant, A..A. Allen, O.L. Jaggers, Paul Cain who was a disciple, and Oral Roberts. Many of today's healing evangelists point back to him as a mentor and influence such as Hinn, Copeland and Hagin and other Word faith movement practitioners.

Angels have always been involved in bringing revelation to mankind. They have also been involved in bringing false information. It all depends on which spirit you have made contact with. 42% of Americans believe they have been in contact with someone who has died and almost 15% endorse the work of spirit mediums.

All these and other religions have had communion with angels for their extra-biblical books or are given new revelation for a new interpretation on the Bible. Can the same angel say two different things on the same subject and they both be true? Obviously not, yet this is exactly what Islam claims has transpired in the Koran. They believe the Koran was verbally dictated by the angel Gabriel based on eternal tablets that are in heaven. Naturally, if there is a conflict it must be in the Bible and not their own book. However there something else operating here that proves it is not the angel Gabriel as they claim.

In their own suras (chapter's) it states that God's word cannot change so if an angel several hundreds of years later comes with a different story, which one are we suppose to believe? Take for example in the Bible the angel Gabriel's announcement of the Christ to Mary, she is told he would be called the Son of God (which means having the same nature as God) Lk.1:35 also in Mt.1:23 he would be called “Emmanuel”, God with us. This is the same angel that told Mohammed that God has no son, and that God is unable to incarnate as a man. Suras 16 and 26 of the Koran tell us Mohammeds call was from the Holy Spirit who is supposed to be the angel Gabriel according to Islam. This to presents a problem, as the Holy Spirit according to the Bible participated in the creation of the earth and is God.

 

[katerinah1947]

Religions started by Angels

 

[2ducklow]

You're making God into just a personality again

No I am not. again?????? you're the one who says God the father is a personality not me. I've never said anyone was a personality. you're the one that has that idea. Man!!!!

even though his nature is being or Spirit. According to John 17:5 the person Jesus was preexistent with the Father before the world began.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

17:5 2532καιAnd 3568νυνnow 1392δόξασόν[2glorify 1473με3me 1473συ1you], 3962πάτερO father, 3844παράwith 4572σεαυτώ[3of yourself 3588τη1the 1391δόξη2glory]! 3739ηwhich 2192είχονI had 4253προ[3before 3588του 3588τον4the 2889κόσμον5world 1510.1είναι6being in existence 3844παρά1with 1473σοι2you].

http://studybible.info/interlinear/john 17.5


it says the glory of yourself, or thine own self, not with the glory we shared. The glory we shared is somebodys interpretation, not what the word of God says. Jesus wasn't asking for some shared glory, he was asking for the glory of God's own self that adam lost before the world system began when Adam first sinned. plain and simple.



So here we can see the person Jesus talking about the Glory he shared with the Father before creation.[/quote] So you use a bad translation of verse 5 to contradict verse 3 that says God the Father is the only true god.

Here's what you have, you have Jesus saying to God the Father "you're the only true God, Father" vs. 3, then in verse 4. you hve Jsus saying "I"m God".

"You're the only true God father . I am God'

man that's completely off the charts. Do you know what that would make Jesus look like? I'm sure you don't.


you guys say God the father is the only true god, Jesus is the only true god, God the holy spirit is the only true god, mary is the only true god. you guys can and do name as many as you want and say each one is the only true god and you don't have a clue as to how illogical that is. Never even registers.

Plus you have Jesus not being God from the time of the creation of the world till he made that statement, thousands of years , according to your reasoning Jesus did not have any glory. Holier than a colander..

(Rotherham) John 17:5 And, now, glorify me--thou, Father! with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world's existence, with thee.

or

(KJV) John 17:5 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus was asking as a stand in for the first adam to have the glory of God's own self restored to us which we lost when adam sinned in the Garden of eden. Verse 22. shows Jesus giving us that glory of God's own self which he asked for in verse 5.


(KJV) John 17:22 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

God gave Jesus, acting in our behalf, the glory of God's own self, and Jesus gave us that glory cause he's the only one who has the right to ask for it for us.

Yeah, Jesus or the Word was manifest in the flesh. I never disagreed with that. Also, if Jesus is God's only begotten son and God is Spirit. Would he also be of Spirit?

would he also be spirit?????? Reread the post you responded to with that question.

Jesus is the son of God, born of Mary's seed and Mary's egg. God created a seed in mary and used it to begat Jesus with. Thus Jesus is come in the flesh. you have spirit beggeting flesh, resulting in spirit, which is a big no no.

spirits don't procreate. If they did and God procreated Jesus with spirit seed, and used Mary's egg. you would get something 1/2 spirit and 1/2 human. the only way you get 100 percent human is when the seed is human and the egg is human. And all of God's creation procreates after it's own kind. God doesn't procreate himself or anyone else..

 

[katerinah1947]

Angels have always been involved in bringing revelation to mankind. They have also been involved in bringing false information. It all depends on which spirit you have made contact with. 42% of Americans believe they have been in contact with someone who has died and almost 15% endorse the work of spirit mediums.

 

[katerinah1947]

Take for example in the Bible the angel Gabriel's announcement of the Christ to Mary, she is told he would be called the Son of God (which means having the same nature as God) Lk.1:35 also in Mt.1:23 he would be called “Emmanuel”, God with us. This is the same angel that told Mohammed that God has no son, and that God is unable to incarnate as a man. Suras 16 and 26 of the Koran tell us Mohammeds call was from the Holy Spirit who is supposed to be the angel Gabriel according to Islam. This to presents a problem, as the Holy Spirit according to the Bible participated in the creation of the earth and is God.

 

[katerinah1947]

Everywhere I look, I see everyone, but non-Christains, and Christians decieved by angels, and people decieved by angels, calling Jesus God, and The Holy Spirit God and The Father God.
Everywhere. So are the majority of all churches wrong? Who says so? Mormons might. Jehovah's Witnesses certianly do, but when all the major Christian Religions who have researched the scriptures, all say that God is The Father, and God is The Son, and God is The Holy Spirit, how can anyone listen for long to a person, who denies that repeatedly? If he is kind and nice it is easy. If he is abrasive, the Bible says to us, to not listen to that man on anything of God, as his goal is not God.

 

[2ducklow]

gee I wonder who she's talkin about? Whew, glad it ain't me. Still it's awful nice of her to keep reminding us of how nice she is while she's thrashing someone.

 

[Viren]

John 17:5 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear


it says the glory of yourself, or thine own self, not with the glory we shared. The glory we shared is somebodys interpretation, not what the word of God says. Jesus wasn't asking for some shared glory, he was asking for the glory of God's own self that adam lost before the world system began when Adam first sinned. plain and simple.



So here we can see the person Jesus talking about the Glory he shared with the Father before creation So you use a bad translation of verse 5 to contradict verse 3 that says God the Father is the only true god.

Here's what you have, you have Jesus saying to God the Father "you're the only true God, Father" vs. 3, then in verse 4. you hve Jsus saying "I"m God".

"You're the only true God father . I am God'

man that's completely off the charts. Do you know what that would make Jesus look like? I'm sure you don't.


you guys say God the father is the only true god, Jesus is the only true god, God the holy spirit is the only true god, mary is the only true god. you guys can and do name as many as you want and say each one is the only true god and you don't have a clue as to how illogical that is. Never even registers.

Plus you have Jesus not being God from the time of the creation of the world till he made that statement, thousands of years , according to your reasoning Jesus did not have any glory. Holier than a colander..

(Rotherham) John 17:5 And, now, glorify me--thou, Father! with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world's existence, with thee.

or

(KJV) John 17:5 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus was asking as a stand in for the first adam to have the glory of God's own self restored to us which we lost when adam sinned in the Garden of eden. Verse 22. shows Jesus giving us that glory of God's own self which he asked for in verse 5.


(KJV) John 17:22 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

God gave Jesus, acting in our behalf, the glory of God's own self, and Jesus gave us that glory cause he's the only one who has the right to ask for it for us.

Okay, here's the translation of the verse you posted.

"Now Glorify me you, O Father, with of yourself the Glory which I had before the world being in existence with you."

I don't see anything about Jesus asking God to Glorify us. The verse plainly talks about the Glory Jesus had before the world was in existence with the Father.

This is similar to John 1:1 where it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

The Bible shows in many verses that Jesus and the Father talk and communicate with one another. So they do have personalities, but also have a spiritual nature so are one.

would he also be spirit?????? Reread the post you responded to with that question.

spirits don't procreate. If they did and God procreated Jesus with spirit seed, and used Mary's egg. you would get something 1/2 spirit and 1/2 human. the only way you get 100 percent human is when the seed is human and the egg is human. And all of God's creation procreates after it's own kind. God doesn't procreate himself or anyone else..

John 3:-6

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So Spirit gives birth to the sons of God.

Also, Acts 17:28

"God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

We are literally swimming in God and are his offspring.

 

[2ducklow]

"God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

We are literally swimming in God.

talk to you latter, my angel friend is demanding that I get ready to go to chuch now. bye

 

[Albion]

Everywhere I look, I see everyone, but non-Christains, and Christians decieved by angels, and people decieved by angels, calling Jesus God, and The Holy Spirit God and The Father God.
Everywhere. So are the majority of all churches wrong? Who says so? Mormons might. Jehovah's Witnesses certianly do, but when all the major Christian Religions who have researched the scriptures, all say that God is The Father, and God is The Son, and God is The Holy Spirit, how can anyone listen for long to a person, who denies that repeatedly?

You make a good point. No matter how adamant the lone wolf Christian is, he's telling everyone that he somehow figured out what thousands of theologians and Bible scholars from all sorts of denominations have supposedly missed for thousands of years--and, what's more, we have it on his own authority that it's so.

The odds of that being correct are astronomically long.

In the real world, such a claim wouldn't get a moment's consideration.

 

[Viren]

You make a good point. No matter how adamant the lone wolf Christian is, he's telling everyone that he somehow figured out what thousands of theologians and Bible scholars from all sorts of denominations have supposedly missed for thousands of years--and, what's more, we have it on his own authority that it's so.

The odds of that being correct are astronomically long.

In the real world, such a claim wouldn't get a moment's consideration.

I don't know, I think it's good to really figure things out for yourself and read scripture with a open mind too. It's easy for the overall message to change by simply focusing on certain parts over others. Many churches do this imo.

 

[katerinah1947]

You make a good point. No matter how adamant the lone wolf Christian is, he's telling everyone that he somehow figured out what thousands of theologians and Bible scholars from all sorts of denominations have supposedly missed for thousands of years--and, what's more, we have it on his own authority that it's so.

The odds of that being correct are astronomically long.

In the real world, such a claim wouldn't get a moment's consideration.

Hi,
The point that everyone here is hearing him out, is listening to him, means a lot. You are giving him the benifit is the doubt, yet this man who uses angels also has self determined that his angels are not like the false angels, spoken of in Religions started by Angels. He determined that. He. Everything he says and does, is either telling others they are wrong or led by evil, based again on his own thoughts.
Also as I can no longer talk to him, from his verbal insults. one after another, I came across this, from Proverbs 9, and gentlemen all, normally I would never say this, but you need this. I prayed for him, for God to help him, but that assumes he really wants to know the truth. It also assumes he is humble enough to know, what he shouid listen to and when. Proverbs 9.

7Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return.
Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt.

8So don’t bother correcting mockers;
they will only hate you.
But correct the wise,
and they will love you.

9Instruct the wise,
and they will be even wiser.
Teach the righteous,
and they will learn even more.


...Katerina., ..... .

 

[Albion]

Hi,
The point that everyone here is hearing him out, is listening to him, means a lot. You are giving him the benifit is the doubt, yet this man who uses angels also has self determined that his angels are not like the false angels, spoken of in Religions started by Angels. He determined that. He. Everything he says and does, is either telling others they are wrong or led by evil, based again on his own thoughts.

I can't deny that you've made a fair observation there. Something to think about the next time any of us is lured into an exchange with some poster of the kind who doesn't want to have a discussion so much as a platform.

 

[katerinah1947]

I don't know, I think it's good to really figure things out for yourself and read scripture with a open mind too. It's easy for the overall message to change by simply focusing on certain parts over others. Many churches do this imo.

Hi,

It is quite good, if you also do this: Try and prove yourself wrong, in all that you learn.

An open mind is certainly needed. It is.

It is totllay correct from my experience that if one does not read every passage on a subject, then it is too easy to get the wrong message.

Yes, it does seem as many churches do that.

His reference source seems to be this:
John 17:5 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

I have looked, and had to go to other sources, to find something that was clear. If he is using an incorrect source of information, it is possible, that he is merely believing what is there, but it may be in error. For instance, eveyone now knows that the word Jehovah, is old and was mistakenly translated that way, by a Catholic monk in 1300 or so. It is also somewhat known that to take all capitalizations out of Proverbs 8, and 9, depersonifying Wisdom to now just the characteristic wisdom, is probably erroneous. His source does that, a lot of sources do that. Also someone here mentioned just how important it is when you are working to use multiple sources, so errors are weeded out. Above it was said, that one must look at every passage on a subject God brings up within the Bible, and throw none of them out ever. It was not said, but for me when I try and see why all of those things are true, simultaneiously, if I can uderstand, it is then that I know what God meant, and not me or someone else meant. I don't think that individual does that or knows that.
To give him the total benifit of the doubt, I hope he is really wanting to find out what is true. I hope he is just accidentally acting like he is.
But as stated above to another, Proverb 9 says this:

7Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return.
Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt.
8So don’t bother correcting mockers;
they will only hate you.
But correct the wise,
and they will love you.

And he has amply demonstated to me, that section of Proverbs fits him so far.
...Katerina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

I can't deny that you've made a fair observation there. Something to think about the next time any of us is lured into an exchange with some poster of the kind who doesn't want to have a discussion so much as a platform.

Argh!
I made a mistake. Citing sources in all work is important. You made two statements that were erroneous. In the first reponse you put down you. In the second response you put down you've. I cannot really say that was me, it is quite a bit above my normal abilities today. It is. Even coming across Proverbs 9, was to me "accidental"". What was not accidental is remembering how useful Proverbs is for dealing with all most all issues. I felt horrible, because I should haver remembered from the past years, to always read Proverbs often enough to forget none of it, as it keeps me from making mistakes.
That makes me feel really really dumb. I forgot how much I need that, to seem wise, or to actually be wise, when I use that in my life.
Glory to me is this. Giving credit, where credit is due. To say that I had anything to do, with finding the right answers today, would be a lie. I am not being humble here. I am being accurate. The credit goes to God, I actually felt that, in my work today, and was astounded at finding: Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God, etc, and posting all those web sites, which now deflects the argument from me, to the entirety of Christendom. I'm not that bright. Even on that, I am not that bright. I WAS HELPED.
So, to state it, the you has to be replaced with: I am glad God..., and the you've has to be replaced with, God has....
...Katerina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
OhMy. OhMy. I have been feeling out of sorts recently. Things have been hard on me. I was losing direction. I wasn't sure anymore of what I was sure of. Then, today happened. And in this day, after I talked to all of you. I decided to listen to myself. I read Proverbs 1-10. Then I was exhausted. I am taking a break now.
OhMy. OhMy. It is not that I know anything for real, it is I follow Proverbs. All that is in there, is about being wise from reading those, not wise inherently. I, the simple am told to read that.
It seems like it is totally for males though, but I hope to get somethings out of it. The idea of wisdom, is amazing, and it seems I spout that, but the source of that, like I said, is from there. Maybe also other places.

Proverbs 11 NLT

LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
Through all my toils and troubles, a few minutes after gettting through just to Proverbs 10, I am refreshed. I am happy. I feel loved. I certainly do not understand this yet. Maybe I forgot the why of that also.
How is it, when I have just read the Bible in this way, I feel consoled? What is this feeling? (Guys,,, feeling to girls is not emotions per se. They are roughly equivalent to your thoughts. Feelings for women and girls is feelings with content. By wrestling and struggling with that feeling to understand that, thought and ideas of the content come out of that. Those are what you men call thoughts, or facts.)
So, what is this feeling? I don't know. Maybe it is knowing God better, by knowing what He wrote through others, better.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
Sorry, but this is fun and no one is posting on this yet, for the original subject. So:

1To learn, you must love discipline;
it is stupid to hate correction.

The next part. Lets see. It was hard to read at first. I have been corrected on this:

4A worthy wife is a crown for her husband,
but a disgraceful woman is like cancer in his bones.

I was corrected as apparently, I am not a disgrace.

I Love Proverbs. I hope to leave you all alone soon. This is just too wonderful now, for me not to talk about.

LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

we are told mockers and scoffers will come in to the fold, this covers false teachers as well as those who would laugh at the idea of God, so we must be aware of the sort of people we will meet and it makes it so important that we trust the bible as the truth and the word of God or we have nothing but feelings to measure these false teachers by.