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Really? Trinity?

2ducklow

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So, wait...then it says that in Christ, abides the full Deity?
But isn't that what I said?
God was in Christ not God was Christ.

To wit, that God was in Christ, [/quote]reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


a rock in a sack, is different than saying a rock is a sack.
TheBarrd said:
Excuse me...Mr. Duck Low, do you worship Jesus Christ?
I bow down to Jesus and kiss his feet.
the word worship means something you only do to God, and the greek and Hebrew words translated that way don't mean that. those greek and Hebrew words mean bow down.
worship was invented to try and put Jesus is god in the bible. along with other stuff.


TheBarrd said:
As far as you or I trying to explain what God is or isn't...seems to me rather like my dog trying to explain quantum physics
The bible says God is a spirit, the bible says God is holy, the bible says God is one, the bible says God the Father is the one and only real or true God. Nothing difficult to understand God's description of himself. But I will agree that anyone trying to explain trinity will have about as much success as a dog explaining quantum physics.
 
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TheBarrd

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Mr, Duck Low,
So, do you bow down and kiss the feet of any other human being in the same way?
I am curious here...
What is worship, and what is not?
I mean, my husband used to say that he worshiped the ground I walk on...and I would say the same to him...is that the kind of "worship" you mean?

Were you baptized, by any chance?
Did the person baptizing you say "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

Which brings up the question...how do you explain the HS? Jesus called Him the "Comforter". Is He God, or not? What say you?
 
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katerinah1947

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And I couldn't AGREE MORE. In the 'real world', no one would EVER even CONSIDER the 'truth'.

Hmmmm..............let's see..............At one time God decided to DESTROY all but ONE man and his family. Another time God destroyed two entire cities except for ONE man and PART of his family.

Over and over we see God sending prophets to warn their people who ended up IGNORING them.

But we should choose to 'follow the majority' TODAY?????

The Bible warns us that there will be a 'falling away' BEFORE the return of Christ:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

I often wonder exactly what PORTION of 'the world' most 'Christians' believe is going to be 'saved' and what portion they believe are going to be destroyed.

When we read the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation and even many of the words of Christ Himself, they paint a pretty grim picture of the FUTURE.

Heck, in Revelation it is offered that basically ONE THIRD of the population of this planet is going to be destroyed during ONE EVENT. At the present population, that would be about TWO BILLION PEOPLE. Two billion destroyed as the direct result of a SINGLE event.

I just wonder..........................if we use the past as the basis for determining the future, God has NEVER destroyed a BUNCH of 'good people' along with the wicked. The very discussion between God and Abraham plainly illustrates this very concept.

So, in the future, when it is TIME for this Earth to be destroyed as we know it and a NEW Earth formed in a completely DIFFERENT design, is God REALLY going to destroy the RIGHTEOUS along with the wicked for the FIRST time in man's history? Or are those to be destroyed going to be the UNRIGHTEOUS?

It is my belief that God isn't going to cause those that are to receive forgiveness the pain and suffering described in the books dealing with the destruction of this planet. Those that are subject to such grief are going to be DESERVING. For basically, they are going to end up bring it upon THEMSELVES.

When God destroyed men at the time of Noah, the Bible states that men's hearts had become EVIL continually. It is my belief that the ultimate form of evil that men can take on is to worship FALSE gods. Spiritual adultery, in my opinion, is probably the WORSE sin a man can produce. And like any other 'addiction', once one begins a journey down that path, it is highly unlikely they will EVER turn back and get on the RIGHT path. For if one desires what a FALSE god has to offer, then they are unlikely to EVER desire what the TRUE God has offered.

With these things in mind, it is MY opinion that if we SEE men RUNNING in a particular direction when it comes to 'religion', if one is following in TRUTH, then they should RUN THE OTHER WAY as fast as they can.

Matthew 24:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


I believe that we can clearly SEE that much of this warning has already taken place. Even after GIVEN such warnings from Christ Himself, many chose to ignore His very words.


So we are still left with the question: Will there be a 'world full of true followers of Christ' when it starts suffering the 'beginnings of sorrows'? Or will 'the world', much as it had become at the time of Noah, be full of pretenders and outright EVIL souls? The evidence offers that God has NEVER destroyed the GOOD along with the EVIL. So that leaves only one conclusion according to the EVIDENCE.


Then there is the matter of WHEN? How CLOSE are we to 'the end'? If we are anywhere NEAR the end, the obvious EVIDENCE would be that there are FEW 'true followers' left. That somehow, the majority of those 'claiming to be followers' are DECEIVERS. Deceivers of themselves and deceivers of others. But they are unable to DECEIVE God or His Son.


I have offered NONE of this on 'my own authority'. I have simply pointed out what we have been offered in SCRIPTURE.


And in TRUTH, I have NEVER offered a SINGLE bit of information on this forum that can't be backed up by what YOU CALL: Bible Scholars. Albeit, those that have come to similar understanding to my own ARE most certainly in the MINORITY.


We're not dealing with odds here folks. At least I'm not. We have a choice to either accept the Bible as God's Word, or just a 'book'. I am a FIRM believer that the Bible is the ONLY THING, short of the Holy Spirit, that we can possess to keep us on the proper path. It is the ONE THING we have in this physical world we can use to KNOW the truth as delivered by God through Christ and His apostles. And it's REALLY NOT that HARD to understand. But one must WANT to understand it and be willing to accept what it offers. We cannot MAKE it mean what we WANT it to in TRUTH.


And I'll close with this: I am NOT a 'lone wolf'. Maybe among those that have bought in to the 'religions' of men. But in TRUTH, I can assure you that the first followers of Christ were NOT followers of 'trinity'. Christ taught NO 'trinity'. Nor did His apostles. If 'trinity' were TRULY introduced by God through His Son, those that introduced it into Christianity wouldn't have needed to torture and murder people to MAKE them accept it. And it wouldn't be the 'mystery' that it is. If it was this 'all important' doctrine that we NEED to believe in in order to please God, He would have surely offered it to us DIRECTLY without men having to FORM it of their OWN design.


Blessings,


MEC


Hi,
Albion was corrected already in using opinion on that one statement. He offered no resistance, to staying open minded always.
Also that statement was for ToDuckLow, not to you about authority, why are you taking offense? It is he, on his own authority who determines what is true, from his angels, to what everyone else says. It was not you.
...Katie. I will go back and check now though to make sure.
Opinions are fairly worthless. And to use them in inciting others, does nothing but cause anger. I will now go back and see if it was you Albion was talking about. I don't think it was though.
...Katie.,
I just double checked. That comment had nothing to do with you. Nothing..... Why are you kicking up a fuss? Are you also ToDuckLow?
...Katerina.,
 
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TheBarrd

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Mr. Duck Low,
Is Jesus your savior?
God says that He is the only saviour...
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Who, exactly, purchased you with His blood?

Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Oh, and look Who appointed overseers over the church...


Now, I don't know what you call "worship"...but Thomas was pretty sure....

Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


The Bible does seem pretty clear on the point that Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God...

 
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TheBarrd

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Some folks take offense at the term "trinity"....I'm not sure why.

The point, however, is this...whatever label you want to use, it seems pretty clear that Jesus is Divine. That is, He is Deity.

And the Holy Spirit, by definition, is also Divine.


We can love other people...indeed, we ought to love one another.
But there is quite a difference between the love that we have for other people...and the love that we have for Jesus Christ.
To compare the two....well, there is no comparison.
You say you fall at His feet and kiss them. Well and good.
Do you pray to Him? Do you ever say anything like "In Jesus name I ask, Amen", or something similar?
 
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2ducklow

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Mr. Duck Low,
Is Jesus your savior?
God says that He is the only saviour...
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Who, exactly, purchased you with His blood?



Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[/quote]Acts 20:28Darby Translation (DARBY)

28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.


John 1:11Darby Translation (DARBY)

11 He came to his own, and his own received him not;


most all bibles change the word of god from 'the blood of his own" to 'with his own blood' to try and make Jesus God by having the bible claim the ridiculous statement that God who is spirit has blood.

his own is a term of endearment. Jesus was God's own, his own son. The bible makes sense. trinity doesn't.
[SIZE=3 said:
Oh, and look Who appointed overs[/SIZE]eers over the church...


Now, I don't know what you call "worship"...but Thomas was pretty sure....

Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
No he didn't he said "o my lord and o my God".
the bible is clear to you that Jesus is God because you believe that 3 is one. anyone believing 3 is one will believe anything.
 
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TheBarrd

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Oh, there is so much in the Bible that shows us the Deity of Jesus Christ.

To Mr. Duck and others....it is my earnest prayer that you learn to know Him as He truly is. How much more precious once you realize...He is our Emmanuel..."God With Us"....
God, the One True God, Creator of all that exists, loved you so much, that He stepped down from His throne to be born a man, and He died for you. His blood is put upon the altar for your sins...yours and mine...He has redeemed you from the very grave.

What can separate you from Him?
Nothing.
Nothing, that is...but your own stubborn refusal to accept what is right before your eyes.
 
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2ducklow

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Mr, Duck Low,
So, do you bow down and kiss the feet of any other human being in the same way?
I am curious here...
What is worship, and what is not?
I mean, my husband used to say that he worshiped the ground I walk on...and I would say the same to him...is that the kind of "worship" you mean?

Were you baptized, by any chance?
Did the person baptizing you say "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"?

Which brings up the question...how do you explain the HS? Jesus called Him the "Comforter". Is He God, or not? What say you?

I've already told you that the greek and Hebrew words that are falsely translated worship really mean bow down. God never said worship. Man took bow down out of God's rword and replaced it with a word he invented "worship' so that he wouldn't have to bow down to God. I bow down to God as God, I bow down to Jesus as the exalted son of The God I bow down to. Worship is a meaningless word . it really means something (nobody kjnows what) that one only does to God. worship is a ridiculous word.

you guys always resort to trying to prove that Jesus is God by trying to paint me as a nonchristian. You guys always try and prove what I say is wrong because of who I am or more correctly who you think I am.
 
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TheBarrd

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Mr. Duck,
I don't mind at all that you think I am naïve...I suppose I am.
Do I believe that three is one? LOL, not really...
But I do believe that God is infinite. He is whatever He wants to be, throughout all of time.
Yes, I know that, to you, my belief seems foolish. What does God say?

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 
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TheBarrd

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"you guys always resort to trying to prove that Jesus is God by trying to paint me as a nonchristian. You guys always try and prove what I say is wrong because of who I am or more correctly who you think I am. "

Mr. Duck,
I just joined this forum today.
I have no idea who "you guys" are, or who you are.
I saw this forum and was interested. I never intended to get drawn into an argument.

If I have offended you, please accept my deepest apologies.

I do hope you do not mind if I continue to worship (yes, worship) the God I know and love. I am sorry that you cannot see what I am trying to show you...of course, I should have realized that wiser folks than I must have been trying for some time. I have no intention of insulting your or belittling your belief...I just cannot share it.

Good night, Mr. Duck. Perhaps next time we meet, you might be in a bit of a better mood...
 
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katerinah1947

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Mr. Duck Low,
Is Jesus your savior?
God says that He is the only saviour...
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Who, exactly, purchased you with His blood?

Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Oh, and look Who appointed overseers over the church...


Now, I don't know what you call "worship"...but Thomas was pretty sure....

Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


The Bible does seem pretty clear on the point that Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God...


Hi,
Realize that your question of is Jesus your saviour was never answered. Instead the subject was changed. Your question has not been answered. It has not.
...Kate.,
 
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TheBarrd

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Thank you, Kate. You are quite right. Mr. Duck did not answer my question.
As I said, I never intended to get drawn into an argument.

"I know in Whom I have believed".

My intention here was to share Him...not to fight over Him.
Therefore, I intend to gracefully withdraw...it's getting late, anyhow.
 
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Imagican

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Well, that's one of the functions of the Holy Scriptures, to inform us.

That said, you could quibble about the language in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, but the Trinity itself is attested to in the Bible. What the Council and the Creed did was merely to put a stamp of approval upon the belief and try a brief explanation of how the three-but-one fact of God's nature is to be understood. The fact of there being a triune nature, however, is plainly Scriptural.

See, once again, you offer deception rather than TRUTH.

The doctrine ITSELF states that it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE. That is CANNOT be UNDERSTOOD even after being divinely inspired.

And it is CLEAR from discussing it with DIFFERENT people that SAY they believe in it that it is NOT something that a SINGLE ONE understands. For if you ask fifty different 'trinitarians' to EXPLAIN "trinity", you will inevitably get FIFTY DIFFERENT explanations. And not a single one makes ANY sense.

So, if one is LOOKING for a 'mystery', 'trinity' certainly FITS the BILL. Especially if you're looking for a MAN MADE 'mystery'.

I already pointed out scripture that offers 'Godhead' so far as the relationship between Father and Son. That is what GOD offered through scripture. And I also pointed out that we shouldn't even THINK about it in terms of something PHYSICAL nor should we TRY to make 'graven images' to represent it.

Yet LOOK what 'trinity' DOES: First it becomes an IDOL: Holy Trinity. Then men began making GRAVEN images to represent it. Just google 'trinity' and then click 'images' and you will find HUNDREDS. So it's pretty clear that those that have READ the scriptures have found SOME way to IGNORE what is offered or alter it into some DIFFERENT meaning.

And WHY is it that the scriptures are PERFECTLY CLEAR to ME, but 'trinitarians' are forced to make up some of the most INANE offerings imaginable when it comes to scripture? You know, LIKE: 'Well, when Christ said THAT He was God, but when He said something else, He was MAN'. Yet when attempting to define Christ from the 'trinitarian' perspective, He was FULLY God/FULLY man. Now how is one FULLY anything when one minute they are ONE thing, the next minute they are SOMETHING ELSE?

And just LOOK at how 'trinity' completely eliminates ANY comprehension about 'overcoming'. IF Jesus was/IS God, then He is incapable of OVERCOMING temptation. For the Bible tells us that God cannot be TEMPTED to EVIL. You cannot OVERCOME something that cannot AFFECT YOU. If one has NO CHOICE, then one CANNOT 'overcome' ANYTHING.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Imagican

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It still talks about Jesus with God pre-existent of the world. The pre-existence of the Word is also seen in Genesis prior to the first creation.

That ought to SHOW you something other than what you are WANTING to SEE. You are WANTING to see 'the Word' AS Jesus Christ instead of Jesus Christ as representative of God's Word. And because of what? A capital W placed in front of 'word' by the translators of the Bible who ALL believed in 'trinity'.

Word in this verse is actually Logos. But later in John 1 it says the word was made manifest at Jesus.

Instead of listening to what MEN have offered in an attempt to explain something of their OWN design, why not simply accept the words of Christ Himself? Christ OPENLY states that the Word is NOT HIS but belongs to His Father: God. It was GIVEN to Him to deliver to US. If The Word WAS Christ, then Christ would BE 'the Word'. But what does Christ HIMSELF state concerning the words He delivered. I've already posted them in this very thread. But watch how EASY it is for those that have read Christ's words to dismiss them because they are CONTRARY to 'trinity'.


In the Gospel of Mark God said, "this is my son who I am well pleased". So God talks and has a personality plus he's Spirit. The three persons that are one in Spirit are kind of like the church. There are different people that are unique, but they are one in spirit.

See, now you're hitting on the edge of the truth. WE TOO can be ONE with both Father and Son as Father and Son are ONE with each other. But it does NOT take 'trinity' for this oneness to exist. If so, then how do WE fit in to this 'trinity'. Wouldn't that alter the WHOLE premise by making a GROUP of 'FOUR IN ONE'? Read the words of Christ Himself concerning the ONENESS that 'trinity' tries to alter into 'three persons in ONE God'. That is NOT the oneness spoken of by Christ. OBVIOUSLY. For if it was, then adding US to this "TRINITY" WOULD DESTROY the very essence of the doctrine. But that is exactly what we find in the words of Christ. His most sincere DESIRE is for US to become ONE with both Him and His Father and He and His Father are ONE with each other. It's not about "PERSONS". It's about LOVE. The oneness that binds them is LOVE. Not SAMENESS, but in a mutual SHARING of their love one with the other.

Also, in Genesis 1 when God created man he said, "let us make man in our image".

There is NO DOUBT that Christ was INSTRUMENTAL in Creation. But what you or anyone else that buys into 'trinity' are forced to IGNORE are the Bible verses that STRAIGHT out STATE that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of EVERY 'creature', (creatures being HUMANS or 'creation'). I also posted the line out of Revelation that STATES that Christ IS the BEGINNING of 'Creation'. What 'trinity' destroys is the FACT that BEFORE the creation of man, God created The Son FIRST. And it was God, THROUGH the Son that man was created. As in what you offered, "Let US.........................in OUR image".

1 John 14 states

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth"

So the Word who was with the Father in the beginning became flesh.

I am having difficulty comprehending what you're saying, but I do appreciate that you're approaching scripture from an unusual angle.

Nothing unusual about it except to 'trinitarians'. For one of the FIRST 'laws' laid out concerning belief in 'trinity' is that the Son is ETERNAL. So that eliminates the possibility of being 'created' right off the bat.

The FACT that the Son, according to the Bible, was "CREATED" is one of the main reasons that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to accept 'trinity'. i don't have a problem with 'reading comprehension'. As a matter of fact, it's always been one of my main exceptions.

But it really doesn't take an exceptional ability to comprehend to read what is offered and UNDERSTAND it. But if one already has preconceptions, it then becomes difficult to SEE anything that contradicts what it is that they FIRST come to accept and believe. The IDEA that Christ is ETERNAL so far as 'backward in time' is a 'man made concept'. For the Bible offers a DIFFERENT account.

Yes, Christ was BEFORE the 'creation' of mankind. Instrumental in the 'creation' of mankind. But the Bible STATES that He was the BEGINNING of the Creation of GOD. That He was the FIRSTBORN of 'every creature'.

Christ has ALWAYS been so far as that which pertains to MANKIND. But so far as God, angels, heaven, the Bible SAYS that there was a TIME BEFORE Christ.

If Christ was/IS 'The Light', we have the words straight out of the Bible concerning the 'CREATION' of 'The Light'. For in Genesis, it STATES that BEFORE the 'creation' of the Light, there was ONLY DARKNESS. The Earth was VOID and WITHOUT FORM. Is Jesus 'the Light' or ISN'T He?

God said, "Let there be light". And it was GOOD.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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TheBarrd

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Don't you understand that a human man cannot save you?
You could die for me, or I could die for you...all that would happen is that one of us would be dead.
Your death would not save me from my sin, nor would my death save you from yours.
If, as you say, Jesus was not Divine, then how does His death save anyone? He was just a man, just like every other man....if that is so, then He is dead...
 
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Viren

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Nothing unusual about it except to 'trinitarians'. For one of the FIRST 'laws' laid out concerning belief in 'trinity' is that the Son is ETERNAL. So that eliminates the possibility of being 'created' right off the bat.

The FACT that the Son, according to the Bible, was "CREATED" is one of the main reasons that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to accept 'trinity'. i don't have a problem with 'reading comprehension'. As a matter of fact, it's always been one of my main exceptions.

But it really doesn't take an exceptional ability to comprehend to read what is offered and UNDERSTAND it. But if one already has preconceptions, it then becomes difficult to SEE anything that contradicts what it is that they FIRST come to accept and believe. The IDEA that Christ is ETERNAL so far as 'backward in time' is a 'man made concept'. For the Bible offers a DIFFERENT account.

Yes, Christ was BEFORE the 'creation' of mankind. Instrumental in the 'creation' of mankind. But the Bible STATES that He was the BEGINNING of the Creation of GOD. That He was the FIRSTBORN of 'every creature'.

Christ has ALWAYS been so far as that which pertains to MANKIND. But so far as God, angels, heaven, the Bible SAYS that there was a TIME BEFORE Christ.

If Christ was/IS 'The Light', we have the words straight out of the Bible concerning the 'CREATION' of 'The Light'. For in Genesis, it STATES that BEFORE the 'creation' of the Light, there was ONLY DARKNESS. The Earth was VOID and WITHOUT FORM. Is Jesus 'the Light' or ISN'T He?

God said, "Let there be light". And it was GOOD.

Blessings,

MEC

This is how I see the trinity in the very first couple sentences of the Bible.

Genesis 1:2,3


"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, "let there be light", and there was light"

So here we can see that the Spirit of God, God and the speech of God or the word all in existence before the creation of light.

The Word becomes the light of men, but it pre-existed light itself.
 
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2ducklow

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Jul 29, 2005
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Don't you understand that a human man cannot save you?
A man did save you.


Romans 5.15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many


TheBarrd said:
You could die for me, or I could die for you...all that would happen is that one of us would be dead.
Your death would not save me from my sin, nor would my death save you from yours.
If, as you say, Jesus was not Divine, then how does His death save anyone? He was just a man, just like every other man....if that is so, then He is dead...
argue that with Romans 5.15
 
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