Really? Trinity?

[childofdust]

If 'trinity' can only be accepted by those to whom it is 'divinely inspired'

Who says that? The truth of God is available to all. I thank YHWH that we don't live in a world where TULIP is true. And I thank God that our religion is founded on observable, measurable, verifiable evidence instead of "divine inspiration" like the pagans.

But if 'trinity' were TRULY inspired by God

"Trinity" isn't "inspired by God" any more than "Incarnation" is inspired by God. These words are descriptive of experiential knowledge. Like the love of my Father. The love of my Father isn't "inspired by God." It is a reality that I experience and that is verified by the experience of the church.

why is it not even MENTIONED in the Bible? If it is TRULY as important as some insist, why was it NEVER mentioned by Christ or His apostles?

The experiential knowledge which we call "Trinity" is mentioned all over the place. It is mentioned, for instance, when Yeshua says "baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and when the disciples or apostles go out and do so. The word "Trinity" is a description, which the church came up with over time, that describes the reality of that threefold baptism. It means, for instance, that when we are baptized into the Holy Spirit, we are not being baptized into some other God than the God we are being baptized into when we are baptized into the Son.

And the MOST important question, how could something be SO IMPORTANT to profess to believe, when even those that "CREATED IT" openly admit that EVEN when 'revealed', it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to any created intellect?

I don't know who is saying that. The concept behind the Trinity is qualitatively comprehensible. As much so as virtually anything else. And, in fact, quite simple. Most of the alternative ideas out there are MUCH more complex. Try reading Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" some time. The Trinity is almost TOO SIMPLE in comparison with most of the stuff that was out there at the time. Here's a preview:

1. THEY maintain, then, that in the invisible and ineffable heights above there exists a certain perfect, pre-existent AEon,(4) whom they call Proarche, Propator, and Bythus, and describe as being invisible and incomprehensible. Eternal and unbegotten, he remained throughout innumerable cycles of ages in profound serenity and quiescence. There existed along with him Ennoea, whom they also call Charis and Sige.(5) At last this Bythus determined to send forth from himself the beginning of all things, and deposited this production (which he had resolved to bring forth) in his contemporary Sige, even as seed is deposited in the womb. She then, having received this seed, and becoming pregnant, gave birth to Nous, who was both similar and equal to him who had produced him, and was alone capable of comprehending his father's greatness. This Nous they call also Monogenes, and Father, and the Beginning of all Things. Along with him was also produced Aletheia; and these four constituted the first and first-begotten Pythagorean Tetrad, which they also denominate the root of all things. For there are first Bythus and Sige, and then Nous and Aletheia. And Monogenes, perceiving for what purpose he had been produced, also himself sent forth Logos and Zoe, being the father of all those who were to come after him, and the beginning and fashioning of the entire Pleroma. By the conjunction of Logos and Zoo were brought forth Anthropos and Ecclesia; and thus was formed the first-begotten Ogdoad, the root and substance of all things, called among them by four names, viz., Bythus, and Nous, and Logos, and Anthropos. For each of these is masculo-feminine, as follows: Propator was united by a conjunction with his Ennoea; then Monogenes, that is Nous, with Aletheia; Logos with Zoe, and Anthropos with Ecclesia.

2. These AEons having been produced for the glory of the Father, and wishing, by their own efforts, to effect this object, sent forth emanations by means of conjunction. Logos and Zoe, after producing Anthropos and Ecclesia, sent forth other ten AEons, whose names are the following: Bythius and Mixis, Ageratos and Henosis, Autophyes and Hedone, Acinetos and Syncrasis, Monogenes and Macaria.(6) These are the ten AEons whom they declare to have been produced by Logos and Zoe. They then add that Anthropos himself, along with Ecclesia, produced twelve AEons, to whom they give the following names: Paracletus and Pistis, Patricos and Elpis, Metricos and Agape, Ainos and Synesis, Ecclesiasticus and Macariotes, Theletos and Sophia.

--Irenaeus, Against Heresies

I'll take the Trinity over that ANY DAY.

If one actually does their homework to find where 'trinity' came from, ultimately the conclusion is that the RCC FORMED the doctrine and then INSISTED that ALL under their control ACCEPT it regardless of ANY 'revelation' or 'belief' or 'understanding'. The 'RCC' basically said, "This is what WE are GOING to BELIEVE ALONG with EVERYONE under our control". And trust me, having the ENTIRE Roman EMPIRE backing up the 'Church' made them quite powerful. Powerful enough to be able to simply put people to death that spoke out against what they were teaching.

The Eastern Orthodox church is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the RCC - yet it also believes in the Trinity. As does the Coptic Church, which is also not the RCC.

It is CLEAR that at the time the 'doctrine of trinity' was being formed, there were MANY opposed to the concept. Many BELIEVERS. Many that I would consider SAINTS. And so too are there MANY today.

Sure. In fact, the majority, for some time, were not Trinitarian. So what? Truth was never decided by majority. Neither was its truthfullness falsified because others didn't believe it.

WHY is that? Why wouldn't God reveal to ALL believers this 'trinity'? And WHY would those that created it have to FORCE others to BELIEVE in it? Why would they have to make it LAW in order to FORCE men to accept it?

No one was ever FORCED to accept the Trinity. Many, many believers chose not to believe the Trinity and to go their own merry way. They weren't FORCED to become Trinitarian. And I really don't know why you think that God should reveal the truth of the trinity to all believers - do you find that God reveals the truth about himself to all believers so that all believers all agree? I don't. Instead, he asks us to come into relationship with him and to learn from him and to grow more like him through struggle and sweat, through prayer and repentance, through submission and theosis.

Surely if He had wanted ALL MEN to adhere to such a concept

God doesn't require all men to adhere to a concept, he requires them to adhere to a reality--the reality of his existence. The word "Trinity" is simply a name that describes that reality.

Did it REALLY take God THREE HUNDRED YEARS to reveal WHO His Son was? Those that actually WALKED with Christ didn't KNOW WHO HE WAS? The apostles NEVER had this 'trinity' revealed to them? Yet the 'RCC' insisted that the doctrine was SO important that they literally PUT PEOPLE TO DEATH for speaking out against it?

God doesn't simply reveal all things to us and send us on our merry way. What you want God to do makes far less sense than Trinitarianism.

Christ came and preached FORGIVENESS for our sins. Yet the RCC adopted the idea that it was OK to torture and murder those that opposed what they insisted ALL MUST profess to BELIEVE.

Really no idea where you're getting this from.

Yet the Romans, three hundred years later, believed that it was OK to torture and MURDER men for disagreeing with THEIR teachings. And USED this tactic to TEACH 'trinity'. In order to eliminate any resistance to it, they KILLED those that openly opposed it. Certainly doesn't SEEM like the proper means to TEACH forgiveness.

Really no idea where you're getting this from.

But let's be REAL for just a MOMENT. The Bible explains to us that FAITH is not about what we SAY we believe, but about the FRUIT that is produced THROUGH what we BELIEVE: what WE DO, not what we SAY.

That was well SAID. And this is what you have DONE: you seem to be trying to pick a fight with Trinitarianism by claiming things that are simply false, by trying to insist that God do things that he never does anywhere else - as if that was fair, and by writing a lengthy OP to no one in particular (and thus with no ability to actually support a particular person's faith) full of virtually nothing but accusations. The fruit of your action in the OP is not humbleness. It is not a listening ear. It is not sincerely asking to better understand. It is not considering others better than yourself. It is not "believing all things" and being "charitable" towards those you disagree with. In point of fact, I see no fruit of the Spirit in your OP at all, despite how WELL you have said things. You be your own judge in the matter, since I don't know your heart.

 

[katerinah1947]

I haven't seen doves, but I've seen lots of other stuff. I see it every church service. For a while not to long ago I was seeing red rose pedals falling on the congregation, and while Lillie falling on a very black friend of mine. It was so beautiful seeing those while lilies cascading over her head and falling down over her body as her face was radiating the agape love of God to me.
this night Angels were kissing me , and other stuff. I waved at them and that caused them to come to add me in getting closer to God, feeling his agape love deeper. I feel it without angel help but they help me go deeper in it. Also during the sermon I saw what appeared to be a fairly large rat running very fast on the floor then up to the ceiling then across the ceiling, then it went to the angels surrounding the pastor and those angels then hurled head size snow balls at me .. Not sure what it meant, but I think it means purity, they are hurling purity at me to help make me pure for the bridegroom. The rat represents my imperfections which they are going to change to purity. an angel just kissed me when I said that so that must be it. I added it to my angel/visions/dreams book. It would probably be enough to write say a 500 page book with.. Maybe someday I will. I can't tell this stuff to anyone in church, they don't wanna hear it so I write down all my numerous angelic experiences At least I can tell it to myself. and I read it sometimes latter and it brings back the experience to me. so it has practical value writing them down. I aam so blessed to have been given so many wonderful angel friends.
It seems people in here can't tell when I tell a joke. I thought it was obvious. The joke was, of course I think I'm right, of course I think I won, because if I thought you won i'd be saying what you said. get it? Do you think what you said was right on? of course you do, and so do I about what I said. Get it?



I experience God and Jesus by the tremendous agape love of God that god pours out on me, and with that love they pour out on me I pour it back on them. Experienceing God is agape love to overflowing levels. to levels where I feel like I"m gonna bust cause I can't take it anymore. I felt it just tonight at church. Caught away in God's love to estatic levels where I feel like I'm not in this world anymore.

Also of course God speaks to me through out the day, and I feel his presence and guidance through the day. but at church, it's gangbusters agape love. His angels kissing me and bringing me into the presence of the Lord and his agape love. I am truly blessed because God gets me caught away in estatic agape love every church service. It just keeps getting better and better, and deeper and deeper.

Oh my!
I did not see, What you saw. I saw things differently. One of us is wrong. One of us.
...Kate.

 

[Imagican]

Part one of two:

childofdust,

I started to address each of these issues. But it's pretty obvious that you don't even care enough about what you BELIEVE to even KNOW where your beliefs COME from.

So, you see something NEGATIVE in my offering of the TRUTH? You see me seeing myself as being BETTER than others? Humbleness? To the point of following false teachings? Are 'Christians' to be HUMBLE and ignore the TRUTH if others perceive it as TOO BOLD or speaking with 'authority'? i think not.

That you would have the ability to ASK me where my information comes from plainly illustrates that you don't know ANYTHING ABOUT 'trinity' except what you have been TAUGHT. Done absolutely NO 'homework' of your own concerning the HISTORY of 'trinity'.

But here is what the "CREATORS of trinity'' have to offer concerning the doctrine that THEY 'created':

This according to New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.



(The problem STARTS with the IDEA that they believe that they were able to BETTER define a MYSTERY that IS contained within the Bible with one that ISN'T. Godhead IS in the Bible. "Trinity" is NOT). And note how SLYLY they offer that 'trinity' is THE central doctrine of THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION. Talk about trying to place oneself in a position ABOVE OTHERS. I do NOT accept 'trinity' as ANY PART of 'true Christianity' EXCEPT as far as 'religion' is concerned. MAN MADE 'religion'.



Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.



Now that you have read this yourself, WHERE do you suppose that they found this idea of 'eternal GENERATION' in the Bible? They DIDN'T. It is THEIR term used to try and MAKE UP what they WANTED to believe. Eternal Generation. Do you understand what this means? Christ wasn't 'created' as the Son of God, but is ETERNALLY begotten. Explain THAT one to me. Try to explain it to YOURSELF. Does this mean that every MILISECOND Christ is being RE-begotten in order to try and eliminate the FACT that He was 'created by God'? Think about it.


In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).


And just look at the attempted deception. They offer that it was FIRST mentioned by.......................but read what is offered. NOTHING to DO with 'trinity' as the doctrine exists. Not a WORD about three persons in ONE God. And this they ADMITTED wasn't written until 270 years AFTER the DEATH of Christ. All this does is offer that THIS MAN believed that Christ was NOT 'created' by God. Which was the point of the Council at Nicea. The PURPOSE of that council was to determine, ONCE and FOR ALL, whether Christ was a 'created being' or NOT. Constantine, a PAGAN Emperor, after everything was said and done, DECIDED that from that day on, the 'churches' stand would be that Christ was NOT 'created'. That Jesus was of the EXACT SAME essence as The Father: God. But not because of what is offered in the Bible, but what the MAJORITY of those present BELIEVED. They wanted the ability to WORSHIP Christ AS GOD. And this was the FIRST major step in accomplishing this OUTSIDE of scripture.





The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.



Now, who in their RIGHT mind, or inspired by the HOLY Spirit would fall for something defined by it's creators as 'hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness'. These are the words offered BY those that 'created and have perpetuated 'trinity'. "HIDDEN and ENVELOPED by a KIND OF DARKNESS". Read it YOURSELF. Christ is the LIGHT of ALL in whom hearts He dwells. But these speak of the UNDERSTANDING of God and His Son as HIDDEN and ENVELOPED by a KIND OF DARKNESS. Their OWN WORDS. So you see, it's not ME that has decided to go AGAINST God's Word, I am a DEFENDER of God's Word. I simply do NOT accept the 'double speak' offered by those that were MURDERING true Christians for their denial of this 'trinity'.

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question. Moreover, our Lord's words, Matthew 11:27, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any created intellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: "The true profession of the mystery of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it" (De mysterio Trinitatus recta confessio est ignoratio scientiae — "Proem ad 1. xviii in Isai."). The controversy with the Eunomians, who declared that the Divine Essence was fully expressed in the absolutely simple notion of "the Innascible" (agennetos), and that this was fully comprehensible by the human mind, led many of the Greek Fathers to insist on the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature, more especially in regard to the internal processions. St. Basil, Against Eunomius I.14; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures VI; St. John Damascene, Of the Orthodox Faith I.2, etc.).



Read it and weep. Nothing but a bunch of 'double speak'. But enough offered to plainly illustrate the points I have made previous.


The God that I know and LOVE WANTS me to KNOW Him and His Son. He is NOT some 'mystery god' or "Unknown God". He knew me before I began to know Him. And He WANTS me to UNDERSTAND everything ABOUT Him and His Son. He is NOT a 'mystery' nor is His Son.


But if wanted to lead people AWAY from God, it would be a very effective means of accomplishing this if I could convince those following to believe that "God cannot be comprehended. He is a MYSTERY that even when revealed, still cannot be comprehended". that would be an UNKNOWN God. And how could Christ have been sent to reveal God by revealing that which REMAINS a mystery or UNKNOWN.

Part two follows:

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Part one of two:

childofdust,

I started to address each of these issues. But it's pretty obvious that you don't even care enough about what you BELIEVE to even KNOW where your beliefs COME from.

So, you see something NEGATIVE in my offering of the TRUTH? You see me seeing myself as being BETTER than others? Humbleness? To the point of following false teachings? Are 'Christians' to be HUMBLE and ignore the TRUTH if others perceive it as TOO BOLD or speaking with 'authority'? i think not.

That you would have the ability to ASK me where my information comes from plainly illustrates that you don't know ANYTHING ABOUT 'trinity' except what you have been TAUGHT. Done absolutely NO 'homework' of your own concerning the HISTORY of 'trinity'.

But here is what the "CREATORS of trinity'' have to offer concerning the doctrine that THEY 'created':

This according to New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.



(The problem STARTS with the IDEA that they believe that they were able to BETTER define a MYSTERY that IS contained within the Bible with one that ISN'T. Godhead IS in the Bible. "Trinity" is NOT). And note how SLYLY they offer that 'trinity' is THE central doctrine of THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION. Talk about trying to place oneself in a position ABOVE OTHERS. I do NOT accept 'trinity' as ANY PART of 'true Christianity' EXCEPT as far as 'religion' is concerned. MAN MADE 'religion'.



Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.



Now that you have read this yourself, WHERE do you suppose that they found this idea of 'eternal GENERATION' in the Bible? They DIDN'T. It is THEIR term used to try and MAKE UP what they WANTED to believe. Eternal Generation. Do you understand what this means? Christ wasn't 'created' as the Son of God, but is ETERNALLY begotten. Explain THAT one to me. Try to explain it to YOURSELF. Does this mean that every MILISECOND Christ is being RE-begotten in order to try and eliminate the FACT that He was 'created by God'? Think about it.


In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).


And just look at the attempted deception. They offer that it was FIRST mentioned by.......................but read what is offered. NOTHING to DO with 'trinity' as the doctrine exists. Not a WORD about three persons in ONE God. And this they ADMITTED wasn't written until 270 years AFTER the DEATH of Christ. All this does is offer that THIS MAN believed that Christ was NOT 'created' by God. Which was the point of the Council at Nicea. The PURPOSE of that council was to determine, ONCE and FOR ALL, whether Christ was a 'created being' or NOT. Constantine, a PAGAN Emperor, after everything was said and done, DECIDED that from that day on, the 'churches' stand would be that Christ was NOT 'created'. That Jesus was of the EXACT SAME essence as The Father: God. But not because of what is offered in the Bible, but what the MAJORITY of those present BELIEVED. They wanted the ability to WORSHIP Christ AS GOD. And this was the FIRST major step in accomplishing this OUTSIDE of scripture.





The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.



Now, who in their RIGHT mind, or inspired by the HOLY Spirit would fall for something defined by it's creators as 'hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness'. These are the words offered BY those that 'created and have perpetuated 'trinity'. "HIDDEN and ENVELOPED by a KIND OF DARKNESS". Read it YOURSELF. Christ is the LIGHT of ALL in whom hearts He dwells. But these speak of the UNDERSTANDING of God and His Son as HIDDEN and ENVELOPED by a KIND OF DARKNESS. Their OWN WORDS. So you see, it's not ME that has decided to go AGAINST God's Word, I am a DEFENDER of God's Word. I simply do NOT accept the 'double speak' offered by those that were MURDERING true Christians for their denial of this 'trinity'.

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question. Moreover, our Lord's words, Matthew 11:27, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any created intellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: "The true profession of the mystery of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it" (De mysterio Trinitatus recta confessio est ignoratio scientiae — "Proem ad 1. xviii in Isai."). The controversy with the Eunomians, who declared that the Divine Essence was fully expressed in the absolutely simple notion of "the Innascible" (agennetos), and that this was fully comprehensible by the human mind, led many of the Greek Fathers to insist on the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature, more especially in regard to the internal processions. St. Basil, Against Eunomius I.14; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures VI; St. John Damascene, Of the Orthodox Faith I.2, etc.).



Read it and weep. Nothing but a bunch of 'double speak'. But enough offered to plainly illustrate the points I have made previous.


The God that I know and LOVE WANTS me to KNOW Him and His Son. He is NOT some 'mystery god' or "Unknown God". He knew me before I began to know Him. And He WANTS me to UNDERSTAND everything ABOUT Him and His Son. He is NOT a 'mystery' nor is His Son.


But if wanted to lead people AWAY from God, it would be a very effective means of accomplishing this if I could convince those following to believe that "God cannot be comprehended. He is a MYSTERY that even when revealed, still cannot be comprehended". that would be an UNKNOWN God. And how could Christ have been sent to reveal God by revealing that which REMAINS a mystery or UNKNOWN.

Part two follows:

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Part 2 childofdust:

I have already offered scripture previously that WARNS us how to approach the concept of 'Godhead'. Yet those that 'created trinity' basically substituted the word 'trinity' FOR 'Godhead'. Like much of the rest of Catholic dogma and doctrine, 'trinity' is little different. The Bible WARNS us that men would come along and DO exactly what the RCC DID. Forbidding to wed. Calling men 'father'. Placing ONE MAN in higher esteem than ALL OTHERS. The list is practically ENDLESS.



And the most important FACT that we can USE to determine the HEARTS of those that created all this 'false doctrine' is the MANNER in which it was FORCED upon the populace: through torture and murder. Any and everyone that openly spoke out against their teachings were PUNISHED by various means. Many were tortured in order to obtain a confession and then burned alive for their refusal to AGREE with the 'church'.


Now, ALL one has to DO in order to KNOW the TRUTH is ask themselves ONE question: Is this METHOD really what Christ came and taught?


We can see that Christ was willing to DIE in order to keep others from harm. Yet the RCC took it upon themselves to KILL those that opposed their teachings. Is this REALLY the 'Spirit of Christ living in their hearts'? Or is this 'something else ENTIRELY'?


The Romans were directly responsible for the DEATH of Christ. The deaths of both Paul and Peter as well. And countless MILLIONS of other faithful followers of Christ. Yet we are to believe that God DIVINELY INSPIRED those that would MURDER their neighbors to alter 'Godhead' into THEIR OWN version that they call: 'trinity'????


The apostles WARNED us NOT to accept ANY doctrine that was NOT delivered by THEM. 'Trinity' was NOT a doctrine of the apostles. Those that MURDERED the apostles created it.


And WHY? Why did the apostles give us this warning? Because their doctrine was the TRUTH and ENOUGH.


But the Romans, believing themselves WISER than the apostles, wiser than the Son of God, decided to take it upon themselves to make up their OWN doctrine. And the evidence is as clear as it could be: to those that can SEE.


I challenge any and ALL that would try to argue against this point to SHOW us. Show us ANY evidence of the ritual and pomp delivered by the Catholic Church. Show us the EVIDENCE that their teachings are from the BIBLE. Where is the BOOK that outlines what CLOTHES they wear, all their statuary and ritualistic articles. The THRONE upon which the Pope sits. Show us where the book is that defines the manner in which they practice the Eucharist. you know, denial of the cup. The words they chant, monks, cathedrals, almost EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church practices is OBVIOUSLY 'man made'. For NONE of it exists in God's Word: The Bible.


So WHERE is the 'book' that teaches these things? WHO taught these things? Romans put the apostles to DEATH. So it was obviously not TAUGHT to them by the apostles. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to PLAINLY see that NONE of their ritualistic practices have ANY basis as offered in the Bible. So where IS that 'book' that defines their practices? There isn't one. They INSIST that their 'tradition' goes back to the apostles. Yet their traditions, even much of their very DOCTRINE, is absolutely CONTRARY to that written by the apostles in The Bible. These people MURDERED the apostles, yet CLAIM that Peter was the FIRST Pope. The only TIME that we KNOW of from the Bible, that Peter was in ROME was in PRISON awaiting trial and condemnation. He was CRUCIFIED IN ROME BY THE ROMANS.



Do my words SOUND good? Not likely. But the truth often doesn't go down easily. Even pills meant to HELP us often are hard to swallow. Not often an easy thing to realize what one has come to BELIEVE isn't the TRUTH. But what Christ had to offer: God's Word, wasn't an easy thing to accept when He offered it either. And MUCH has been placed IN THE WAY in the two thousand years that have passed since.


The Catholics OPENLY admit that they follow MORE 'tradition' than the actual scriptures. Not those that PRACTICE 'the Catholic Faith', but those that FORMED it. Most Catholics don't have the FIRST CLUE as to the actual HISTORY of their 'faith'.


And most Protestants are completely UNAWARE that their OWN denominations are little more than OFFSHOOTS of the Catholic Church. Martin Luther didn't START over with the TRUTH. He WAS a DEVOUT Catholic till the day he died. He only revealed a few OUTRIGHT lies the 'church' was using to make merchandise of the congregation. But the core beliefs of the Catholic Church were carried over into ALL the major denominations. 'Trinity' being but ONE of the 'fabricated' doctrines of the Catholic Church that are a PART of every MAINSTREAM denomination.


And we are TOLD that before the return of Christ, there would be a 'falling away' FIRST. Not from 'religion', but from the TRUTH. And those with the EYES to SEE can PLAINLY witness that the 'falling away' STARTED shortly after His death. Maybe the very DAY of His death.


I am not TRYING to 'sound good'. Nothing about what I have to offer is going to SOUND good to those that have been duped into a false understanding of Christ or His Father.


And I ENCOURAGE you to DOUBT everything I offer. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. For when it comes time for judgement, the LAST excuse that will be accepted is: "Well, that's what THEY told me to BELIEVE". And I don't think them being judged according to death along side you will be much of a consolation.



So DO THE HOMEWORK YOURSELF. I have offered ENOUGH to get you started. DOUBT me!!!! I BEG you. I CHALLENGE you to DOUBT ME. For if you allow your DOUBT of my words to LEAD you to the TRUTH, then it can only be to YOUR benefit. And if in DOUBTING me you are LED to discover the TRUTH, I am more than willing to suffer your indignation. It is a small price to pay in the hopes of planting PROPER seeds of TRUTH. For what GOOD is your FAITH if it is placed in FALSE beliefs?



We are to serve in TRUTH and Spirit. There is NO support of the Spirit EXCEPT in TRUTH. One cannot exist without the OTHER.



But there are: spirits MANY. And Satan knows how to MIMIC God in every aspect of His existence. He was an ANGEL and one of high esteem in heaven LONG before being cast out. So he KNOWS how to 'ACT' like God. He IS god to any and all that allow him to influence them into following HIM.


And THINK about this: If Satan wanted to MIMIC God AND the Son of God, AND the Holy Spirit, can you think of a BETTER way than to TEACH men that ALL three are ONE. So no matter WHICH he mimics, Father, Son or Spirit, those that follow believe he is GOD.



And God is not going to destroy a WORLD FULL OF FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS of HIM. He is going to destroy a world full of people with 'itching ears' that have allowed influence to lead them into a FALSE worship of a FALSE god.


So, beware.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[Ripheus27]

And the most important FACT that we can USE to determine the HEARTS of those that created all this 'false doctrine' is the MANNER in which it was FORCED upon the populace: through torture and murder. Any and everyone that openly spoke out against their teachings were PUNISHED by various means. Many were tortured in order to obtain a confession and then burned alive for their refusal to AGREE with the 'church'.

When? In the 100s and 200s, when there were many in the Church, which lacked coercive power, who yet believed in the deity of Christ and the Spirit?

Yet we are to believe that God DIVINELY INSPIRED those that would MURDER their neighbors to alter 'Godhead' into THEIR OWN version that they call: 'trinity'????

Didn't God DIVINELY INSPIRE Paul, who had been breathing murderous threats against the Church? Who are you to decide to whom God reveals Himself? (Doesn't He reveal Himself to everyone indirectly, in the witness of the power of creation?)

I challenge any and ALL that would try to argue against this point to SHOW us. Show us ANY evidence of the ritual and pomp delivered by the Catholic Church. Show us the EVIDENCE that their teachings are from the BIBLE. Where is the BOOK that outlines what CLOTHES they wear, all their statuary and ritualistic articles. The THRONE upon which the Pope sits.

Has the Catholic Church always clothed itself in such garishness, or is that a somewhat later development?

Show us where the book is that defines the manner in which they practice the Eucharist. you know, denial of the cup. The words they chant, monks, cathedrals, almost EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church practices is OBVIOUSLY 'man made'. For NONE of it exists in God's Word: The Bible.

The Bible is obviously man-made, by the men of the Catholic Church even! As for the Eucharist, well, that's pretty much what all the talk about the Bread of Life and the Last Supper comes down to.

Let me put it like this. The Bible does not contain a record of the far-later Catholic Church. Since the Bible doesn't contain this, your (often almost entirely false) representations of Church odctrine and history are based on... what? The New Advent Encyclopedia alone? Random anti-Catholic websites? A PhD in history? What would it matter? It's not in the Bible so why believe it?

And I ENCOURAGE you to DOUBT everything I offer. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK... So DO THE HOMEWORK YOURSELF. I have offered ENOUGH to get you started. DOUBT me!!!! I BEG you. I CHALLENGE you to DOUBT ME. For if you allow your DOUBT of my words to LEAD you to the TRUTH, then it can only be to YOUR benefit. And if in DOUBTING me you are LED to discover the TRUTH, I am more than willing to suffer your indignation. It is a small price to pay in the hopes of planting PROPER seeds of TRUTH. For what GOOD is your FAITH if it is placed in FALSE beliefs?

Fair enough, but when other posters here find out how off the mark your theory of history is, will you acknowledge this or continue to deride us as if we knew nothing of our own faith and its origins?

And THINK about this: If Satan wanted to MIMIC God AND the Son of God, AND the Holy Spirit, can you think of a BETTER way than to TEACH men that ALL three are ONE. So no matter WHICH he mimics, Father, Son or Spirit, those that follow believe he is GOD.

This is not a good argument. First, even if Jesus and the Spirit aren't God, the Bible still plainly tells us to follow these two. If we're following these two, then even if we add in the fairly abstract claim, "Oh, and They're also consubstantial with the Father as three relations in one nature," that doesn't help Satan.

 

[Imagican]

Let us START with your assertion about the Bible.

While the Catholic Church was the FIRST to combine the BOOKS contained within it, so far as we KNOW, they were merely COPIES of the writings of the APOSTLES.

So, YES, the Catholic Church combined the different writings into the BOOK we call the Bible.

But we can also see that they DENIED it to 'the people' as long as they were physically ABLE. They tried to KEEP the TRUTH from the people as long as possible.

The EVIDENCE is plainly recorded in history. The lives and deaths of those that TRIED to put the Bible in the HANDS of 'the people'. It took well over a THOUSAND years for the Bible was able to be published and placed in the hands of 'the people'. And as soon as this advent took place, men began to REBEL against the Catholic Church. WHY? The TRUTH. And that is WHY God INSPIRED the Bible. And what BETTER group to inspire than those that would try and twist it's purpose? For it is impossible to compare the truth contained within scripture to what a 'church' teaches if the congregation has NO access to 'scripture'. The Bible that the Catholic Church 'created', ended up being the catalyst for their very demise in the minds and hearts of them able to read and understand what is contained within the bible OUTSIDE of their influence.

The deity of either Christ or the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with 'trinity'. "Trinity" doesn't offer ONE BIT of 'better understanding'. It actually TAKES AWAY true understanding by inserting the IDEAS and CONCEPTS of MEN in place of what was offered through direct inspiration of God through His Son.

I offer this: If Jesus IS exactly who He stated He IS, then 'trinity' teaches a FALSE God. For IF Jesus IS NOT 'God' or 'one of three persons making up ONE God, then the teaching that He is is the teaching of a FALSE Christ. And if the Holy Spirit is NOT 'one of three PERSONS making up ONE God, then what is taught in 'trinity' is a FALSE Spirit. And if God is NOT The Father and the Father ALONE God, then the 'trinity' teaches a FALSE God.

And not surprising. For Satan's ultimate desire is to BE the God of this world. So if he can influence men to believe in a FALSE God, then that lets HIM take the place of a 'false god' in order to garner the worship of MEN: the ONLY manner that he is ABLE to be GOD in his own mind and heart is to be WORSHIPED as God by MEN.

NO, I simply USED the New Advent to plainly illustrate what the 'creators' of 'trinity' have ULTIMATELY come to place it as DOCTRINE in the 'Church'.

What? Are you offering that there is MORE than ONE 'trinity'? Are you going to argue that the 'RCC' DID NOT 'create trinity'.

NO, the Bible does NOT record ANYTHING about the history of 'trinity' for 'trinity' isn't even IN the Bible.

But the 'church' history ITSELF is easily found. All the various Councils held are RECORDED. Even the very YEARS and locations. The EVOLUTION of 'trinity' is PLAINLY documented and the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. Men's BELIEFS were the source of it's CREATION, evolution and perpetuation in the 'churches'.

So, what you propose is an IMPOSSIBILITY. You CANNOT show 'trinity' to BE anything other than what I have offered. Unless, of course, YOU believe in a DIFFERENT 'trinity'.

And isn't it amazing that the 'churches' have been able to introduce and perpetuate an IDEA that they CLAIM is CENTRAL or one of the basic pillars of the FOUNDATION of 'Christianity', yet if you ask TEN different believers in 'trinity' to explain it, you'll get TEN DIFFERENT explanations.

Are there TEN DIFFERENT God's offering DIVINE REVELATION in TEN DIFFERENT WAYS?

Let us take it a step further. If you ask 100 people to explain 'trinity' you are likely to get 100 different explanations. Are there 100 DIFFERENT Gods offering 100 DIFFERENT 'divine revelations'?

Would a TRUE God TRULY offer something SO CONFUSING where no TWO people can come to the SAME understanding about something DIVINELY inspired?

How about this:

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I have derided NO ONE. I have simply offered that from your OWN WORDS you plainly illustrate that you are ignorant of the history of a doctrine that you would try to defend while KNOWING practically NOTHING about it. YOUR OWN words have been the basis for my observation. Your own last post has indicated that you find what I have offered unbelievable. That plainly PROVES that you DO NOT already KNOW what I have offered.

So, to point out the ignorance of men is to somehow DERIDE them??? I would offer that ANYONE that has a desire to be a TRUE follower MUST KNOW what it is that they follow. You, and most others that follow a belief in 'trinity' plainly show that you don't really CARE to KNOW what you believe and are simply following what you have been TAUGHT to believe by those that would KEEP you ignorant and continue to make merchandise of you.

I have studied the 'trinity' for about twenty years now. NOT from subversive websites and propaganda, but from direct sources of information recorded throughout history. MOST of the sources are DIRECTLY from the RCC itself. For they admit to MOST of it's history AS they FORMED the doctrine. It is RECORDED information that is EASILY obtainable. All you have to do is WANT to KNOW the truth in order to make the effort necessary to FIND the TRUTH. When I started my studying that internet was in it's infancy. MOST of my study for years was THROUGH THE LIBRARY. Literal BOOKS.

The whole premise of Christ being EQUAL to God was the FIRST major schism in the 'Church'. A pagan Roman Emperor was the DECIDING factor that LED to the formation of 'trinity' as defined TODAY. And it started with LAWS governing the BELIEFS of those SUBJECT to the LAW: the ENTIRE Roman Empire. The KNOWN leader of the KNOWN World at the time.

Yet through the Bible, in the words of The Son of God Himself, The Son STATES that the Father: God, is GREATER than the SON. How are two things equal when ONE is GREATER than the other.

The Council at Nicea ERRED in it's conclusion and every subsequent step in the formation of 'trinity' only ADDED to the FOUNDATIONAL error of the Council at Nicea. MEN, (mainly a PAGAN Emperor), decided that Jesus is the SAME as God. And from THIS error, 'trinity' evolved into it's present form.

So, do we TRUST in Christ, The Son of God, our Savior? Or do we place our faith in 'man made churches' and THEIR rules and THEIR laws? According to the Word, Christ FREED us from Laws written upon stone, (or paper), and NOW the law is written in the hearts of them that follow in TRUTH.

If we opt for Christ, then we MUST accept what Christ offered. And He plainly offered that He was NOT here to represent HIMSELF, but to offer what He was SENT to offer. And that which He was SENT to offer was GIVEN to Him by GOD, His Father. He did NOT come to bring honor to Himself, but to bring honor to God, His Father. And through DOING what HE was SENT to DO, God would BRING honor to His Son.

Then men came along and through their OWN wisdom decided that they KNEW better than God's Son and created their OWN God in 'trinity'. Read the Bible. Jesus is NOT God. He is NOT 'one of three PERSONS that make up ONE God'. That is NOT in the Bible. That entire concept is utterly MAN MADE.

Eternal Generation????? You've GOT to be WANTING to be duped to fall for any such 'double speak'. Show me THAT one in the Bible.

The Bible offers that BEFORE men existed or those things pertaining to man existed, Christ was WITH God. The Bible does NOT offer that Christ WAS God. And no amount of MISUNDERSTANDING of the beginning of the Book of John offers anything even REMOTELY similar to 'trinity'. You would have to WANT to believe in 'trinity' in order to USE John's words to defend or define it. God's Word is defined by Christ Himself as God's Word. NOT HIS, other than AFTER the FACT. God's Word was GIVEN to Christ to deliver to those capable of HEARING and UNDERSTANDING it. I already posted scripture where Christ PLAINLY states that the Word is NOT HIS, but belongs to the Father. The Father TAUGHT the Son His Word and SENT Him to deliver it.

But 'trinity' would DESTROY this TRUTH and insert instead that Christ IS God. That WOULD make Christ 'The Word'. That would make the words He delivered HIS WORDS. But the Bible offers DIFFERENT understanding in TRUTH.

As I said, my fondest desire would BE for you to DOUBT my words ENOUGH to do the homework to PROVE IT. For I am more than confident that upon DOING the homework, the TRUTH will be REVEALED. I have done NOTHING but offer the TRUTH to the best of my ability to DO SO. And not from the perspective of what SOMEONE has TAUGHT me to believe. But from studying the HISTORY of the doctrine of 'trinity' as offered by the very people that CREATED it and have perpetuated it. Read the history YOURSELF and SEE if what YOU have come to believe MATCHES what actually EXISTS in the OVERWHELMING evidence.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Let us START with your assertion about the Bible.

While the Catholic Church was the FIRST to combine the BOOKS contained within it, so far as we KNOW, they were merely COPIES of the writings of the APOSTLES.

So, YES, the Catholic Church combined the different writings into the BOOK we call the Bible.

But we can also see that they DENIED it to 'the people' as long as they were physically ABLE. They tried to KEEP the TRUTH from the people as long as possible.

The EVIDENCE is plainly recorded in history. The lives and deaths of those that TRIED to put the Bible in the HANDS of 'the people'. It took well over a THOUSAND years for the Bible was able to be published and placed in the hands of 'the people'. And as soon as this advent took place, men began to REBEL against the Catholic Church. WHY? The TRUTH. And that is WHY God INSPIRED the Bible. And what BETTER group to inspire than those that would try and twist it's purpose? For it is impossible to compare the truth contained within scripture to what a 'church' teaches if the congregation has NO access to 'scripture'. The Bible that the Catholic Church 'created', ended up being the catalyst for their very demise in the minds and hearts of them able to read and understand what is contained within the bible OUTSIDE of their influence.

The deity of either Christ or the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with 'trinity'. "Trinity" doesn't offer ONE BIT of 'better understanding'. It actually TAKES AWAY true understanding by inserting the IDEAS and CONCEPTS of MEN in place of what was offered through direct inspiration of God through His Son.

I offer this: If Jesus IS exactly who He stated He IS, then 'trinity' teaches a FALSE God. For IF Jesus IS NOT 'God' or 'one of three persons making up ONE God, then the teaching that He is is the teaching of a FALSE Christ. And if the Holy Spirit is NOT 'one of three PERSONS making up ONE God, then what is taught in 'trinity' is a FALSE Spirit. And if God is NOT The Father and the Father ALONE God, then the 'trinity' teaches a FALSE God.

And not surprising. For Satan's ultimate desire is to BE the God of this world. So if he can influence men to believe in a FALSE God, then that lets HIM take the place of a 'false god' in order to garner the worship of MEN: the ONLY manner that he is ABLE to be GOD in his own mind and heart is to be WORSHIPED as God by MEN.

NO, I simply USED the New Advent to plainly illustrate what the 'creators' of 'trinity' have ULTIMATELY come to place it as DOCTRINE in the 'Church'.

What? Are you offering that there is MORE than ONE 'trinity'? Are you going to argue that the 'RCC' DID NOT 'create trinity'.

NO, the Bible does NOT record ANYTHING about the history of 'trinity' for 'trinity' isn't even IN the Bible.

But the 'church' history ITSELF is easily found. All the various Councils held are RECORDED. Even the very YEARS and locations. The EVOLUTION of 'trinity' is PLAINLY documented and the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. Men's BELIEFS were the source of it's CREATION, evolution and perpetuation in the 'churches'.

So, what you propose is an IMPOSSIBILITY. You CANNOT show 'trinity' to BE anything other than what I have offered. Unless, of course, YOU believe in a DIFFERENT 'trinity'.

And isn't it amazing that the 'churches' have been able to introduce and perpetuate an IDEA that they CLAIM is CENTRAL or one of the basic pillars of the FOUNDATION of 'Christianity', yet if you ask TEN different believers in 'trinity' to explain it, you'll get TEN DIFFERENT explanations.

Are there TEN DIFFERENT God's offering DIVINE REVELATION in TEN DIFFERENT WAYS?

Let us take it a step further. If you ask 100 people to explain 'trinity' you are likely to get 100 different explanations. Are there 100 DIFFERENT Gods offering 100 DIFFERENT 'divine revelations'?

Would a TRUE God TRULY offer something SO CONFUSING where no TWO people can come to the SAME understanding about something DIVINELY inspired?

How about this:

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I have derided NO ONE. I have simply offered that from your OWN WORDS you plainly illustrate that you are ignorant of the history of a doctrine that you would try to defend while KNOWING practically NOTHING about it. YOUR OWN words have been the basis for my observation. Your own last post has indicated that you find what I have offered unbelievable. That plainly PROVES that you DO NOT already KNOW what I have offered.

So, to point out the ignorance of men is to somehow DERIDE them??? I would offer that ANYONE that has a desire to be a TRUE follower MUST KNOW what it is that they follow. You, and most others that follow a belief in 'trinity' plainly show that you don't really CARE to KNOW what you believe and are simply following what you have been TAUGHT to believe by those that would KEEP you ignorant and continue to make merchandise of you.

I have studied the 'trinity' for about twenty years now. NOT from subversive websites and propaganda, but from direct sources of information recorded throughout history. MOST of the sources are DIRECTLY from the RCC itself. For they admit to MOST of it's history AS they FORMED the doctrine. It is RECORDED information that is EASILY obtainable. All you have to do is WANT to KNOW the truth in order to make the effort necessary to FIND the TRUTH. When I started my studying that internet was in it's infancy. MOST of my study for years was THROUGH THE LIBRARY. Literal BOOKS.

The whole premise of Christ being EQUAL to God was the FIRST major schism in the 'Church'. A pagan Roman Emperor was the DECIDING factor that LED to the formation of 'trinity' as defined TODAY. And it started with LAWS governing the BELIEFS of those SUBJECT to the LAW: the ENTIRE Roman Empire. The KNOWN leader of the KNOWN World at the time.

Yet through the Bible, in the words of The Son of God Himself, The Son STATES that the Father: God, is GREATER than the SON. How are two things equal when ONE is GREATER than the other.

The Council at Nicea ERRED in it's conclusion and every subsequent step in the formation of 'trinity' only ADDED to the FOUNDATIONAL error of the Council at Nicea. MEN, (mainly a PAGAN Emperor), decided that Jesus is the SAME as God. And from THIS error, 'trinity' evolved into it's present form.

So, do we TRUST in Christ, The Son of God, our Savior? Or do we place our faith in 'man made churches' and THEIR rules and THEIR laws? According to the Word, Christ FREED us from Laws written upon stone, (or paper), and NOW the law is written in the hearts of them that follow in TRUTH.

If we opt for Christ, then we MUST accept what Christ offered. And He plainly offered that He was NOT here to represent HIMSELF, but to offer what He was SENT to offer. And that which He was SENT to offer was GIVEN to Him by GOD, His Father. He did NOT come to bring honor to Himself, but to bring honor to God, His Father. And through DOING what HE was SENT to DO, God would BRING honor to His Son.

Then men came along and through their OWN wisdom decided that they KNEW better than God's Son and created their OWN God in 'trinity'. Read the Bible. Jesus is NOT God. He is NOT 'one of three PERSONS that make up ONE God'. That is NOT in the Bible. That entire concept is utterly MAN MADE.

Eternal Generation????? You've GOT to be WANTING to be duped to fall for any such 'double speak'. Show me THAT one in the Bible.

The Bible offers that BEFORE men existed or those things pertaining to man existed, Christ was WITH God. The Bible does NOT offer that Christ WAS God. And no amount of MISUNDERSTANDING of the beginning of the Book of John offers anything even REMOTELY similar to 'trinity'. You would have to WANT to believe in 'trinity' in order to USE John's words to defend or define it. God's Word is defined by Christ Himself as God's Word. NOT HIS, other than AFTER the FACT. God's Word was GIVEN to Christ to deliver to those capable of HEARING and UNDERSTANDING it. I already posted scripture where Christ PLAINLY states that the Word is NOT HIS, but belongs to the Father. The Father TAUGHT the Son His Word and SENT Him to deliver it.

But 'trinity' would DESTROY this TRUTH and insert instead that Christ IS God. That WOULD make Christ 'The Word'. That would make the words He delivered HIS WORDS. But the Bible offers DIFFERENT understanding in TRUTH.

As I said, my fondest desire would BE for you to DOUBT my words ENOUGH to do the homework to PROVE IT. For I am more than confident that upon DOING the homework, the TRUTH will be REVEALED. I have done NOTHING but offer the TRUTH to the best of my ability to DO SO. And not from the perspective of what SOMEONE has TAUGHT me to believe. But from studying the HISTORY of the doctrine of 'trinity' as offered by the very people that CREATED it and have perpetuated it. Read the history YOURSELF and SEE if what YOU have come to believe MATCHES what actually EXISTS in the OVERWHELMING evidence.

Blessings,

MEC

so who was Jesus when he was with God?

 

[Viren]

it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to any created intellect?

Yep, as it says in 1 Corinthians "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

This is because the fullness of God can't be understood by the intellect only the heart.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Yep, as it says in 1 Corinthians "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

This is because the fullness of God can't be understood by the intellect only the heart.

amen.

 

[Viren]

Here's a verse that speaks of the Trinity.

Isaiah 57:15

For this is what the high and exalted One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.

This verse describes the three locations where God resides. First, his name which is breath or Spirit is holy so he resides in his name. Second, in the high and holy place as the Father. Finally, he also resides with the contrite of heart and lowly of spirit.

 

[katerinah1947]

Here's a verse that speaks of the Trinity.

Isaiah 57:15

For this is what the high and exalted One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.

This verse describes the three locations where God resides. First, his name which is breath or Spirit is holy so he resides in his name. Second, in the high and holy place as the Father. Finally, he also resides with the contrite of heart and lowly of spirit.

Extremely nice, for part of what you wrote, think, but also for your hopes, to know God exquisitely, if possible.
Thank-you.
...Katie.,

 

[Ripheus27]

But we can also see that they DENIED it to 'the people' as long as they were physically ABLE. They tried to KEEP the TRUTH from the people as long as possible.

The EVIDENCE is plainly recorded in history. The lives and deaths of those that TRIED to put the Bible in the HANDS of 'the people'. It took well over a THOUSAND years for the Bible was able to be published and placed in the hands of 'the people'. And as soon as this advent took place, men began to REBEL against the Catholic Church. WHY? The TRUTH.

The" RCC," such as it existed at the time, schismed in the 1000s or so AD (IIRC), and it wasn't, so far as I know, until the Albigensian/Franciscan crises of the 1200s and 1300s that the Church would deal with massive rebellion within Christendom. (I admit there might have been movements within the region before, e.g. the Paulicians, but I don't know enough about all that, and at any rate they couldn't have been as drastic as the situation involving the crusade in southern France and the consequences of the Franciscan Order.) But what do we find in the words of the rebels? In the man who used his native tongue to relay to the people not only the words of the Bible but of the other men the Church heavily drew upon to support itself mentally?

And I believe in three Persons, the Trinity:
an essence so triune and singular
that in It, is and are conjoin to eternity. (Dante, PARADISO)​

This from a man who said the contemporary papacy had made a sewer of St. Peter's tomb.

And that is WHY God INSPIRED the Bible.

God never says, in the Bible, that He would use the Bible to cause a revolution in His Church. So why would you believe such a thing? You go on to reason from morality and history, as if you had a sort of divine perspective on these matters; but then we might say that God has preserved belief in the Trinity even through the very aforementioned revolution, which testifies to God's witness of the Trinity.

And not surprising. For Satan's ultimate desire is to BE the God of this world. So if he can influence men to believe in a FALSE God, then that lets HIM take the place of a 'false god' in order to garner the worship of MEN: the ONLY manner that he is ABLE to be GOD in his own mind and heart is to be WORSHIPED as God by MEN.

We're still not worshiping Satan by believing in the Trinity. Even if we have a weird idea about the Son, well, we're still believing in the Father through the Son and all that.

What? Are you offering that there is MORE than ONE 'trinity'? Are you going to argue that the 'RCC' DID NOT 'create trinity'.

Well, they didn't. Valentinius the Gnostic was, to my knowledge, the first person devoted to Christ who wrote about "the three hypostases" as the terminology was later adapted to the more matter-friendly theory of the Catholics. Gnostics also played a large if direct or indirect role in developing, evidently, the doctrine of the Spirit's deity. So at least as far back as the Gnostics, who may or may not be mentioned in some the epistles, we have this question of the Trinity manifested among the early Christian community, well before the Council of Nicaea.

In fact, before the word "Trinity" was definitively applied to the official answer to the problem, many early Christian believers had claimed deity of Christ and the Spirit, along with the Father.

And isn't it amazing that the 'churches' have been able to introduce and perpetuate an IDEA that they CLAIM is CENTRAL or one of the basic pillars of the FOUNDATION of 'Christianity', yet if you ask TEN different believers in 'trinity' to explain it, you'll get TEN DIFFERENT explanations.

Are there TEN DIFFERENT God's offering DIVINE REVELATION in TEN DIFFERENT WAYS?

Oh, so the Atonement is easy to grasp, then? Just how in the world did the Crucifixion save us, again?

Would a TRUE God TRULY offer something SO CONFUSING where no TWO people can come to the SAME understanding about something DIVINELY inspired?

So everyone has to believe exactly the same things, for anyone's beliefs to be true? Well, I'll be.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Debating the Trinity, especially within the Church, doesn't have to or tend to result in the opposite of "peace," which is the kind of confusion (not mental uncertainty) probably being discussed in the passage you quoted. More to the point, if God

alone is immortal and lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (1 Timothy 6:16)

such that for the time being we

see through a glass darkly; but then, face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12)

then how, pray tell, are we to buy into claims that somehow, right now, some one of us knows everything about God?

I have studied the 'trinity' for about twenty years now. NOT from subversive websites and propaganda, but from direct sources of information recorded throughout history. MOST of the sources are DIRECTLY from the RCC itself. For they admit to MOST of it's history AS they FORMED the doctrine. It is RECORDED information that is EASILY obtainable. All you have to do is WANT to KNOW the truth in order to make the effort necessary to FIND the TRUTH. When I started my studying that internet was in it's infancy. MOST of my study for years was THROUGH THE LIBRARY. Literal BOOKS.

This is a conspiracy theory, not reality.

Yet through the Bible, in the words of The Son of God Himself, The Son STATES that the Father: God, is GREATER than the SON. How are two things equal when ONE is GREATER than the other.

The Father gave over all power of judgment to the Son; so how is the Father greater than the Son? Anyway, if you know the Trinity theory so well, you should know that Trinitarians say that Jesus was speaking as a human when He said that, or referring not to the greatness of God Himself but of the place where the Father "dwells."

The Council at Nicea ERRED in it's conclusion and every subsequent step in the formation of 'trinity' only ADDED to the FOUNDATIONAL error of the Council at Nicea. MEN, (mainly a PAGAN Emperor), decided that Jesus is the SAME as God. And from THIS error, 'trinity' evolved into it's present form.

Are you sure you know the history of this theory so well if you keep spelling "Nicaea" as "Nicea"?

So, do we TRUST in Christ, The Son of God, our Savior? Or do we place our faith in 'man made churches' and THEIR rules and THEIR laws? According to the Word, Christ FREED us from Laws written upon stone, (or paper), and NOW the law is written in the hearts of them that follow in TRUTH.

So are you going to deny the Bible ultimately, too? I wouldn't object if you did.

Eternal Generation????? You've GOT to be WANTING to be duped to fall for any such 'double speak'. Show me THAT one in the Bible.

When the author of Hebrews talks about "Today," he's explicit that He's referring to some metaphorical divine time-state. I don't want to say "metaphorical divine time-state" a million times, so I'll just say "eternity," and everything is even clearer.

As I said, my fondest desire would BE for you to DOUBT my words ENOUGH to do the homework to PROVE IT. For I am more than confident that upon DOING the homework, the TRUTH will be REVEALED.

The truth is that there is far more to the nature, history, and reasoning behind this doctrine than you have cited so far. Whether you have a truly complete analysis and synthesis of all historical information regarding the Trinity doctrine is something that remains to be seen.

 

[2ducklow]

(Rotherham) Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book of the law of God, distinctly,--and, giving the sense, caused them to understand the reading.

giving the sense of scripture causes one to understand the reading. nonsense produces no understanding. That verse sinks trinity.

Luke 24:38 And he said unto them--Why are ye troubled? and for what cause do reasonings arise in your hearts?


kinda kills the idea that we don't reason in our hearts, but only in our heads. It's a figure of speech. The heart pumps blood, the head thinks and reasons.

John 4:41 And, many more, believed by reason of his discourse;

notice it doesn't say " believed by nonsense of his discourse."

Ephesians 2:4 But, God, being rich in mercy, by reason of the great love wherewith he loved us,


it doesn't say 'by nonsense of the great love".

James 3:17 But, the wisdom from above, is--first pure, then peaceable, reasonable, easy to be entreated, fraught with mercy and good fruits, without partiality, without hypocrisy.

God's wisdom is reasonable, not nonsensical.

2 Peter 2:12 These, however, as unreasoning creatures that have been bred as being, by nature, for capture and destruction, in the things they are ignorant of, uttering defamation, in their spoiling, shall also be made a spoil,--

unreasoning (nonsense) leads to captivity and destruction.

Revelation 12:11 And, they, overcame him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of their witnessing word, and they loved not their life, even unto death.


we overcome by the reason of Christ's blood, not by the nonsense of God's blood.



(Rotherham) Proverbs 4:7 The principal thing, is wisdom, acquire thou wisdom, With all thine acquisition, acquire thou understanding.

get wisdom and understanding. Don't get nonunderstanding (nonsense)

So the bible says nothing positive about getting nonunderstanding, and positive things about reasoning, getting the sense of scripture,

Trinity is contrary to these verses, and no verse says you can't understand God, so get nonsense and call it the wisdom of God.


God's wisdom is reasonable (james 3.17). Those that resort to unreasoning (nonsense) are doomed for capture and destruction (2 pet. 2.12)


So scripture condemns unreasoning (nonsense) and lauds understanding and reason. Which sinks the widely held idea that we aren't to use logic in interpreting scripture. you guys have nothing to support your advocating the rejection of logic and reason.

So a good starting point would be to ask yourself the question, "Is saying 3 is one, reasoning or unreasoning?" If you think it's unreasoning then according to 2 pet 2.12 that unreasoning will lead to captivity and destruction. If you think it's reasoning, well there's nothing I can say to that.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
For years and years, I wanted to know the Bible well. Since I was 12 or so, I wanted to know if God were real or not, by proof.
Well I was given both of those things by God, and God actually is the one who put those commands into me, that I obeyed. Yet, I never knew my passion for God was really a Commnand by Him for me to obey or not.
If I only knew one thing, that one day I would see God, then that would be enough for me, because it is God's Will in me and for me.
I was to learn more though, as I would need that, for what God wanted me to do. You guys are not part of that. I have no clear idea what you are contesting about really. I do not.
I can guess though. One of you has been told by God he says, that God is not trinitarian. He holding to that because God told Him that He is not trinitarian. Now, God can with evil people cause them to be lied to by evil spirits. That happened in 2 Kings, with false prophets. He never seems to have done that with anyone who is truly wondering if He is real though. I have never heard of that. Yet, when Jesus arrived, He also back then closed their hearts and minds, lest the people back then do something. That is written, in the New Testament.
I do not know what Ducklow you saw. Originally when you told me your story, I saw the rose petals fall on the person you talked about in your description, and saw that rat not go up the wall, but in fact go up a door like opening, that is large, because that is the slightly smaller section, of the room where ministers talk from. You however did not say that. It was lillies on the person, and the rat ran up the wall. So, I did not see that, and I don't know why yet. Yes, it can be that I am wrong. It can be because God no longer wants me to have that gift, except in emergencies, of which this is not. It can be for another reason also.
Yet, you duck... are convinced God told you the trinity is false. How can anyone not agree that God talked to you, from what you said so far. I can't.
Is it possible that all of us, other than you are wrong, about the concept of God Sending His Only Begotten Son to earth, and is it possible that our trinitarian idea of His also Sending The Holy Spirit to us after His Son left us is wrong? If God told you so, then it is more than possible, it is the way it is.
Yet, in God's time will that be revealed maybe, not yours nor mine. Let me explain an episode from my life, like that, and how I want it done now, but it seems God has quite the different Idea on that timing.
One day I said Yes. I said it loudly. I said it affirmingly. I said that, because I did want that. I didn't know it at the time, but it was my secret heart's desire. Instantly upon my Yes, all of my relationships changed, but that is off the point, it is only part of the hundreds to thousands of confirmations that I receive because of that Yes statement, made to God.
Now, I told everyone of that set of incidents over a two year period, because I wanted and thought everyone needed to know that. I forgot Biblically that one who knows much, is never supposed to anger one who knows less. (Mark 9:38-42). I forgot that I am to stumble no one, with my permissions with God, lest they misunderstand and find it harder to get to, and of course accept God, because of what I am allowed to do, without sinning, and they are not allowed to do without at least sinning to themselves, in their own minds. So now, I only share my experiences with those who need to know.
I have asked you to share with me, and you did. It was nice. It upset me, because I did not see what you saw. Normally with things seen by people, where it is God who showed them things, I see that, but that has been fading over the years, and may only be gone now, thus may have nothing to do with the validity of your visions. Your visions still could be as you say they are, which is totally understood by you, information about you and God.
...Katerina.

 

[2ducklow]

Hi,
For years and years, I wanted to know the Bible well. Since I was 12 or so, I wanted to know if God were real or not, by proof.
Well I was given both of those things by God, and God actually is the one who put those commands into me, that I obeyed. Yet, I never knew my passion for God was really a Commnand by Him for me to obey or not.
If I only knew one thing, that one day I would see God, then that would be enough for me, because it is God's Will in me and for me.
I was to learn more though, as I would need that, for what God wanted me to do. You guys are not part of that. I have no clear idea what you are contesting about really. I do not.
I can guess though. One of you has been told by God he says, that God is not trinitarian. He holding to that because God told Him that He is not trinitarian. Now, God can with evil people cause them to be lied to by evil spirits. That happened in 2 Kings, with false prophets. He never seems to have done that with anyone who is truly wondering if He is real though. I have never heard of that. Yet, when Jesus arrived, He also back then closed their hearts and minds, lest the people back then do something. That is written, in the New Testament.
I do not know what Ducklow you saw. Originally when you told me your story, I saw the rose petals fall on the person you talked about in your description, and saw that rat not go up the wall, but in fact go up a door like opening, that is large, because that is the slightly smaller section, of the room where ministers talk from. You however did not say that. It was lillies on the person, and the rat ran up the wall. So, I did not see that, and I don't know why yet. Yes, it can be that I am wrong. It can be because God no longer wants me to have that gift, except in emergencies, of which this is not. It can be for another reason also.

Other people have visions that I haven't had. no biggie to me. For decades others in our church would have visions, and I never had any. I never had one vision until 5 years ago, and now it's like the flood gate has been opened to me. I'm sure God will use someone else and not me someday. God uses all his saints. But there's a time and a season for it. My time is now. God gives me visions, and I interpret them as I believe God reveals them to me. The lilies represent the righteousness of God descending upon all Christians. Christians righteousness isn't very good, it's like filthy rags. but Christians are to strive to have Yahweh our righteousness as our righteousness. and that righteousness desecends from heaven above where God resides. I think you just misread what I said, everybody does that, I wouldn't make a big deal about that.


the Rose petals represent the blood of the lamb that enables all Christians to receive Yahweh our righteousness as their righteousness.

Yet, you duck... are convinced God told you the trinity is false.

No
the bible says God the Father is the one and only true God, and I believe him. the bible says to get understanding, 3 is one isn't understanding, so I don't accept trinity for those 2 reasons. God didn't have to tell me god the father is the one and only true God, the bible says it.

How can anyone not agree that God talked to you, from what you said so far. I can't.
Is it possible that all of us, other than you are wrong, about the concept of God Sending His Only Begotten Son to earth, and is it possible that our trinitarian idea of His also Sending The Holy Spirit to us after His Son left us is wrong? If God told you so, then it is more than possible, it is the way it is.

God doesn't tell us which doctrine is true and which doctrine is false, we are to study God's word and make sense out of it and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. we are not to ask god 'is trinity correct?" 'is oneness correct". because it involves asking if things that contradict his word are correct. and he's not gonna answer that, Satan does at times, but not God. Asking god if your doctrine is correct is like asking God if what he said in his word is correct. and I don't think God likes that at all. It's ok to ask god to help our understanding of his word, but in my opinion it's a big no no to ask god to increase our understanding of a doctrine we hold.

Yet, in God's time will that be revealed maybe, not yours nor mine. Let me explain an episode from my life, like that, and how I want it done now, but it seems God has quite the different Idea on that timing.
One day I said Yes. I said it loudly. I said it affirmingly. I said that, because I did want that. I didn't know it at the time, but it was my secret heart's desire. Instantly upon my Yes, all of my relationships changed, but that is off the point, it is only part of the hundreds to thousands of confirmations that I receive because of that Yes statement, made to God.
Now, I told everyone of that set of incidents over a two year period, because I wanted and thought everyone needed to know that. I forgot Biblically that one who knows much, is never supposed to anger one who knows less. (Mark 9:38-42). I forgot that I am to stumble no one, with my permissions with God, lest they misunderstand and find it harder to get to, and of course accept God, because of what I am allowed to do, without sinning, and they are not allowed to do without at least sinning to themselves, in their own minds. So now, I only share my experiences with those who need to know.
I have asked you to share with me, and you did. It was nice. It upset me, because I did not see what you saw. Normally with things seen by people, where it is God who showed them things, I see that, but that has been fading over the years, and may only be gone now, thus may have nothing to do with the validity of your visions. Your visions still could be as you say they are, which is totally understood by you, information about you and God.
...Katerina.

I've stated before that god doesn't go beyond our understanding, and there are things in the trinity doctrine that are true. Trinity teaches that god the Father is god, and that is true. So God speaks in ways to Trinitarians that he would not speak to someone who has more truth. Someone with more truth gets a clearer picture from God. God takes us where we are and calls us up higher, its up to us to follow or not follow. But he doesn't reject us cause we are slower than others in heeding the leading of the Holy Spirit. He takes us just as we are and works towards getting us all higher and higher in him.

 

[katerinah1947]

Other people have visions that I haven't had. no biggie to me. For decades others in our church would have visions, and I never had any. I never had one vision until 5 years ago, and now it's like the flood gate has been opened to me. I'm sure God will use someone else and not me someday. God uses all his saints. But there's a time and a season for it. My time is now. God gives me visions, and I interpret them as I believe God reveals them to me. The lilies represent the righteousness of God descending upon all Christians. Christians righteousness isn't very good, it's like filthy rags. but Christians are to strive to have Yahweh our righteousness as our righteousness. and that righteousness desecends from heaven above where God resides. I think you just misread what I said, everybody does that, I wouldn't make a big deal about that.


the Rose petals represent the blood of the lamb that enables all Christians to receive Yahweh our righteousness as their righteousness.

No
the bible says God the Father is the one and only true God, and I believe him. the bible says to get understanding, 3 is one isn't understanding, so I don't accept trinity for those 2 reasons. God didn't have to tell me god the father is the one and only true God, the bible says it.

God doesn't tell us which doctrine is true and which doctrine is false, we are to study God's word and make sense out of it and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. we are not to ask god 'is trinity correct?" 'is oneness correct". because it involves asking if things that contradict his word are correct. and he's not gonna answer that, Satan does at times, but not God. Asking god if your doctrine is correct is like asking God if what he said in his word is correct. and I don't think God likes that at all. It's ok to ask god to help our understanding of his word, but in my opinion it's a big no no to ask god to increase our understanding of a doctrine we hold.



I've stated before that god doesn't go beyond our understanding, and there are things in the trinity doctrine that are true. Trinity teaches that god the Father is god, and that is true. So God speaks in ways to Trinitarians that he would not speak to someone who has more truth. Someone with more truth gets a clearer picture from God. God takes us where we are and calls us up higher, its up to us to follow or not follow. But he doesn't reject us cause we are slower than others in heeding the leading of the Holy Spirit. He takes us just as we are and works towards getting us all higher and higher in him.

Dear and I do mean that to you now,
One day I was presented God, and could not tell each from the other.
Antother day separate from the other two God The Father spoke to me.
That same day separate from the other two Jesus spoke to me.
That day they both alternated, each telling me things, to tell the man in front of me, what They wanted Him to know.
That day just wanting, when the man had seen Jesus personally, because he knew too little about God, I asked.
That day, the information came again and I was forced to speak. That was The Holy Spirit separate from the other two.
The day, The month and The year came of of my mouth to him. On This day, on This month, in This year, that is when Jesus appeared to you. The words were said.
He stepped back from my doorway, as though I had punched him. His head was turned to the side. I wondered what had just happened. He said something. That is the day my mother died. I was now hurt. I was now upset. That was not the day. It was not. In my arrogance, I had done this. I did think it outrageous earlier to internally in that moment, think that God in my faith, would give me this answer, then it came. Maybe I could be forgiven for hurting this man so. I had just reminded him, not of the day, he saw Jesus, but the day his mother died.
Slowly he came to his senses. He mumbeled something. My head is now like his. Those words made me do things that are inexpressible now. My head is too the side. I am stunned. "That is the day I saw Jesus". Those were the mumbled words. Then God The Father in His own personal voice talked to me to tell the man some things, but those Words came into my right jawbone socket. Jesus in his pesonal voice then spoke in exactly the same place. Most of those Words, I spoke as they came to me, yet I did not tell him the source of those Words, I just repeated what They said, using my vocal cords, jaw etc. I didn't think I could tell him who was actually talking. I didn't.
In Medjugorje one day, God is before me. He is less than two feet away. I am not supposed to touch Him as it was sacrilegious then. I saw three, and could not tell them apart. I saw three. With logic, I was able to figure out that Jesus was on my far left, as that is where He is said to be in relation to God The Father. The Holy Spirit was on my far right. God The Father then was the one in the middle. I could not tell them apart. Other than being right in front of me, other than that way of being together, each of them was separate from the other two, but in all other ways, IDENTICAL.
...Katerina.
P.S. Oh by the way, I thought I would be able to do miracles, and not sin, after that. NOPE! Each day, each moment, I still have to choose God constantly.
...Katerina., He, They and ..... .

 

[2ducklow]

Dear and I do mean that to you now,
One day I was presented God, and could not tell each from the other.
Antother day separate from the other two God The Father spoke to me.
That same day separate from the other two Jesus spoke to me.
That day they both alternated, each telling me things, to tell the man in front of me, what They wanted Him to know.
That day just wanting, when the man had seen Jesus personally, because he knew too little about God, I asked.
That day, the information came again and I was forced to speak. That was The Holy Spirit separate from the other two.
The day, The month and The year came of of my mouth to him. On This day, on This month, in This year, that is when Jesus appeared to you. The words were said.
He stepped back from my doorway, as though I had punched him. His head was turned to the side. I wondered what had just happened. He said something. That is the day my mother died. I was now hurt. I was now upset. That was not the day. It was not. In my arrogance, I had done this. I did think it outrageous earlier to internally in that moment, think that God in my faith, would give me this answer, then it came. Maybe I could be forgiven for hurting this man so. I had just reminded him, not of the day, he saw Jesus, but the day his mother died.
Slowly he came to his senses. He mumbeled something. My head is now like his. Those words made me do things that are inexpressible now. My head is too the side. I am stunned. "That is the day I saw Jesus". Those were the mumbled words. Then God The Father in His own personal voice talked to me to tell the man some things, but those Words came into my right jawbone socket. Jesus in his pesonal voice then spoke in exactly the same place. Most of those Words, I spoke as they came to me, yet I did not tell him the source of those Words, I just repeated what They said, using my vocal cords, jaw etc. I didn't think I could tell him who was actually talking. I didn't.
In Medjugorje one day, God is before me. He is less than two feet away. I am not supposed to touch Him as it was sacrilegious then. I saw three, and could not tell them apart. I saw three. With logic, I was able to figure out that Jesus was on my far left, as that is where He is said to be in relation to God The Father. The Holy Spirit was on my far right. God The Father then was the one in the middle. I could not tell them apart. Other than being right in front of me, other than that way of being together, each of them was separate from the other two, but in all other ways, IDENTICAL.
...Katerina.
P.S. Oh by the way, I thought I would be able to do miracles, and not sin, after that. NOPE! Each day, each moment, I still have to choose God constantly.
...Katerina., He, They and ..... .

what do you call this experience? Is it something you thought? is it a vision? Is it something you saw with your physical eyes? what? It doesn't sound like a vision to me. So I'm not sure what it is you experienced.

sometimes after I've had some marvelous experience with the Lord, I sometimes think that he is now going to give me miracle power or something but he never does. So I can relate to that sort of expectation. Our pastor was preaching on that once recently and he said God doesn't give us miracle power because if he did we would use it to justify where we are. He said God wants the congregation to get to a place of purity so that he can give gifts to everyone, and no one will feel they have been justified in their position of impurity. He said something like that. that's how it came across to me anyway.

 

[Viren]

The trinity can be seen in the Lord's prayer.

Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be they name.

Our are the children or sons of God.
Father is God in heaven
Name which is the breathe or Spirit of God.

God lives in all three that's why they're Holy.

Also, 1 Kings 19:12 describes YHWH being in a small whisper or breathe.

"Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper."


Also, Jeremiah 24:7 tells us that God is known by the heart.

"I will give them a heart to know me"

The heart is able to sense unity in seemingly separate things.

 

[katerinah1947]

what do you call this experience? Is it something you thought? is it a vision? Is it something you saw with your physical eyes? what? It doesn't sound like a vision to me. So I'm not sure what it is you experienced.

sometimes after I've had some marvelous experience with the Lord, I sometimes think that he is now going to give me miracle power or something but he never does. So I can relate to that sort of expectation. Our pastor was preaching on that once recently and he said God doesn't give us miracle power because if he did we would use it to justify where we are. He said God wants the congregation to get to a place of purity so that he can give gifts to everyone, and no one will feel they have been justified in their position of impurity. He said something like that. that's how it came across to me anyway.

Dear,
I have just received counsel on your question to me. You are like Saint Augustine when he was on earth. He could not understand God. I have just been told that if you do not understand the above, as it was written to you, then your comprehension is limited, and I am not to try and make you understand.
I would like to say more, and I will if you ask. I will even try to help you understand.

Let me add something. I had to know this. I had to. I know it. I had to know this, for something God wanted me to do one day. He wanted to ask me a question. I had to totally understand that question. In order to do that, I had to totally know God the way He is. I did understand that question. I did understand it totally. I did understand that question precisely, as it was meant, and Who exactly was asking that question. So, I needed to know. That is why I told you this much. I had hoped this was enough. Next I will speak plainly.
1. God is God.
2. You are trintarian and you don't know it. You are Parent, Adult, Child all in one body.
3. Jesus was begotten, using only what was in God to do that. His Parent, His Adult, His child within Himself.
4. Jesus is like His Father, being both Trinitarian within His own self now, and also in being God. (***)
5. The Holy Spirit is Trinitarian, and other than being a spirit only, like God The Father, He is like Jesus, and
He is like The Father in all ways, except choice.
6. The identicalness of God, is only differentiated by Choices. Each makes Choices and that determines Who
they are, in person. Their choices are their personhood. (a made up word for this talk)
7. If you understood all of that, then I am pleased, and the counsel was in worry and not in content. I took it
as content, because of the source of that counsel, who is not God, but works for God.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina., He, They ..... .