Really? Trinity?

[Ripheus27]

I really must have no life; I just said I didn't feel like debating Imagician, but my mood changed.

I offer that you have plainly shown exactly where your understanding COMES from. Not the Bible, but YOUR OWN understanding. The exact SAME understanding that LED to the formation and perpetuation of 'trinity'.

I probably wouldn't have ever used the word "Trinity" if I based my religious vocabulary on the vocabulary used in the Bible. However, I would have come to the conclusion that somehow the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are the one God, and then, so I wouldn't always have to write out "Father and Son and Spirit," I probably would've come up with a shorthand like "the Threefold One" or something.

But if you TRULY believe what you offer so far as your 'mathematical conclusion', SHOW us the EVIDENCE. Show us where in the Bible, or ANY WHERE ELSE, God offered inspiration to use ANY mathematical formula to illustrate the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit.

But if you TRULY believe what you offer so far as your 'biblical conclusion', SHOW us the EVIDENCE. Show us where in the Bible, or ANY WHERE ELSE, God offered inspiration to use ANY Bible to illustrate the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit.

But since there was no Bible when the New Testament was written, well, God couldn't have told us to use the Bible to interpret the New Testament.

And just LOOK at the practices of those that 'created trinity'. Idol worshipers. Believers in a 'multi part god'. Look at all their pagan inspired RITUAL.

Apparently, a lot of Trinitarianism derives from the hypermonism of the Gnostics. This is very strange and actually incoherent in ways, but goes to show how it wasn't just outsiders to the early Christian movement who believed in things that led to the official declaration of the Trinity.

 

[2ducklow]

We teach that three individual relationships share one individual nature, or that 3x = 1y, not that 3x = 1x. This is not illogical, hence an interpretation of the Bible based on this picture is not illogical, and no worse off as such than your interpretation. But then I guess we are just stupid despisers of reason who never graduated elementary school...

3 individual relationships sharing one individual is nonsense to me.
God the Father isn't an individual relationship. according to the bible he is the one and only true God.

Trinitarians do say 3 persons are one God. they even put it in 1 john 5.7 in the form of 'these three are one." If you don't teach that that doesn't mean others don't, cause they do.

You say your 3 relationships = I individual (I presume you mean God) isn't illogical. To you I guess not , to me it's just garbled nonsense. Not illogical, just nonsensical.

 

[2ducklow]

Wow. You couldn't even get THAT message of mine correct. What chance would an explanation of the nature of God have, therefore?

You like those little toy things. They are really just meant as insults. You're getting desperate to find illogic in my posts, with this one.


I got your message, I offered for you not to speak to so you wouldn't have to hear it anymore. you in effect were telling me to shut up , I was in effect telling you if you don't like it don't speak to me. So I wasn't being illogical, just employing logic a few steps beyond where you were. Also it was meant as a joke, which obviously you didn't get.

so try your own insult icon on. since insults are your proofs. Don't have to say anything else with a good insult icon proof do you? Nothing more convincing than an insult icon proof. trumps everything. No really it does. it's called a certain kind of logical fallacy. Poisoning the well I think it is.

your nature of God thing is nonsense. God is not a nature. your explanations are just convoluted explanations usually full of misnomers, and vague terminology so that no one has the vaguest idea what you mean. And that's the whole point of explaining how 3 is one. Confuse um till they throw up their hands and quit. works like a charm.

 

[Imagican]

I really must have no life; I just said I didn't feel like debating Imagician, but my mood changed.



I probably wouldn't have ever used the word "Trinity" if I based my religious vocabulary on the vocabulary used in the Bible. However, I would have come to the conclusion that somehow the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are the one God, and then, so I wouldn't always have to write out "Father and Son and Spirit," I probably would've come up with a shorthand like "the Threefold One" or something.



But if you TRULY believe what you offer so far as your 'biblical conclusion', SHOW us the EVIDENCE. Show us where in the Bible, or ANY WHERE ELSE, God offered inspiration to use ANY Bible to illustrate the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit.

But since there was no Bible when the New Testament was written, well, God couldn't have told us to use the Bible to interpret the New Testament.



Apparently, a lot of Trinitarianism derives from the hypermonism of the Gnostics. This is very strange and actually incoherent in ways, but goes to show how it wasn't just outsiders to the early Christian movement who believed in things that led to the official declaration of the Trinity.

You make it TOO easy. You say one thing, but ALL the evidence points to something DIFFERENT.

I posted scripture EXPLAINING the use of the term ONE directly FROM the Bible. The ONLY way one could confuse this word would be to IGNORE what is offered IN THE BIBLE as explanation.

When Christ says that those that had 'seen Him had seen the Father', this is NOT LITERAL. Not MEANT to be literal. Since NO MAN has EVER SEEN God, it is OBVIOUS that it cannot be LITERAL. Doesn't matter what you WANT to believe, the TRUTH is OBVIOUS. You are FORCED to IGNORE what is offered that EXPLAINS the error of 'trinity' in order to maintain it.

While there was indeed, no Bible in the beginning of 'the Church', it is pretty clear that the 'books' or 'writing' that BECAME the Bible DID exist. As well as the epistles written to the 'Churches'.

But since it wasn't until HUNDREDS of years AFTER the DEATH of Christ that the RCC introduced the IDEAS that lead to 'trinity', it is CLEAR that 'trinity' didn't EXIST until it was "CREATED" by MEN hundreds of years AFTER the death of Christ.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of 'three persons in one God' in ANY writings UNTIL 'trinity' came INTO the picture. NOT ONE apostle taught it. Christ NEVER even MENTIONED it so far as what was recorded in the Gospels.

And the important part of this discussion in TRUTH is that the HISTORY of 'trinity' DOES exist. The RCC's history plainly records the EVENTS and PEOPLE involved with it's FORMATION and INTRODUCTION into the RCC. Only those that CHOOSE to be ignorant of it's history ARE ignorant by CHOICE. The FACTS are easily obtainable to any that are willing to do just a BIT of research.

But that is NOT the NATURE of 'trinity'. The 'Church' itself openly ADMITS that there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF of 'trinity'. That is MUST be divinely inspired and even then, NO ONE can TRULY understand it. It IS a 'mystery'.

But the funny part, the Bible offers "Godhead" as a 'mystery' that is TRULY divinely INSPIRED. That word does exist in the Bible and it IS a 'mystery' of sorts'.

But what a NUTTY conception, replace a legitimate 'mystery' with one of YOUR OWN. But even when replacing ONE with another, realize that the NEW mystery doesn't explain the OLD mystery any better than the OLD mystery. And then LOOK at how the NEW mystery ALTERED understanding. Look at ALL the FALSE TEACHINGS that were brought into play BY inventing and inserting 'trinity' into 'Christianity'.

And the MOST profound part of it is this: Most Protestant denominations OPENLY admit that they DO NOT agree with the practices of the Catholic Church. Yet the ENTIRE concept of 'trinity' was introduced into 'Christianity' BY the RCC.

You SAY that you would have come to the IDEA of 'three persons in one god' regardless of 'trinity'. I don't BELIEVE it. For I have NEVER MET anyone that wasn't INTRODUCED to it. I read the Bible about four or five times before I had EVER heard of it and I had found NOTHING in the Bible that would indicate that Jesus IS God. That God is THREE PERSONS in ONE God. NOTHING. I was absolutely DUMBFOUNDED when I heard someone say, Jesus is God. And they acted like they were JUST as dumbfounded that I had NEVER heard of 'trinity'.

I had 'heard' the word. there are 'churches' that use the name. I kind of had a feeling that it had something to do with THREE. But I had NEVER heard ANYONE speak of 'trinity' so far as THREE PERSONS in ONE GOD. And at the time I FIRST heard it I was about 30 years old.

now YOU can say God simply didn't LOVE me enough to reveal it to me. But I KNOW that I have had a relationship with God like few I have ever witnessed. I UNDERSTAND things that MOST that have been led in misunderstanding by the 'churches' can't even FATHOM.

Yet God didn't LOVE me ENOUGH to reveal the TRUTH to me that He is REALLY 'three persons in ONE God'. A person after His own heart, yet He REVEALED to MURDERERS and TORTURERS and RAPISTS and CHILD MOLESTERS that He is "THREE persons in ONE God". But to His SINCERE child STARVING for understanding, He just HID this from me?????? You've GOT to be JOKING.

Do you believe in MORE than ONE 'trinity'? Does God reveal a DIFFERENT 'trinity' to DIFFERENT PEOPLE? If the answer is yes, then THAT 'god' is a deceiver. If NO, then you offer by your own admission that you are deceiving yourself and maybe even others.

For those that "CREATED TRINITY" STATE that it can ONLY be KNOWN by Divine Revelation. And even when Revealed, it CANNOT be understood.

So HOW would you have come to the conclusion, ON YOUR OWN, that 'trinity' or the CONCEPT of 'trinity' exists when those that CREATED it state that it can ONLY be known through Divine Revelation? And even then, it is STILL incomprehensible to ANY 'created intellect'?

So you see, the ONLY way you KNOW of 'trinity' according to the doctrine itself, is either through DIVINE Revelation, or someone TAUGHT it to you. And even if someone taught it to you, you STILL can't understand it.

And what kind of 'God' would introduce such 'double speak' and EXPECT anyone to accept it? I don't serve some 'holy idol'. I serve a LIVING and LOVING God. A God that is MY Creator, my Heavenly Father. And He loves me as HIS CHILD. His Son.

No, don't follow some UNKNOWN God. I follow and KNOW the LIVING God. The Father of both Jesus Christ and all who LOVE Him and abide in His commandments.

I do NOT follow a "MYSTERY god". Here is what Paul had to say about the subject:

Acts 17:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Read it a COUPLE of times. And NOTE: Paul offered WARNING that the Godhead is something that we shouldn't even THINK we are able to 'create' through 'art' or any other of man's DEVICES. Wisdom is a DEVICE of men. But more often than not their OWN wisdom ONLY leads them into FALSE pretense and FALSE assumption.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[2ducklow]

the trinity makes more sense and aligns better with scripture than any alternative.
you just don't have an open mind, yet you expect others to have an open mind.

I have an open mind to scripture. you don't have an open mind to anything that contradicts trinity probably because you call your trinity interpretations of scripture scripture. we both have the same openness to scripture, we just each have a different idea what scripture is. we both are , probably, not open to spurious and interpolated scripture, we just both have differing opinions as to which scriptures those are. So we really agree, we just have different facts.

i think I will agree to disagree.

obviously what we have here is a failure to communicate. Sorry, I saw Cool Hand Luke night before last.

 

[Imagican]

I really must have no life; I just said I didn't feel like debating Imagician, but my mood changed.



I probably wouldn't have ever used the word "Trinity" if I based my religious vocabulary on the vocabulary used in the Bible. However, I would have come to the conclusion that somehow the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are the one God, and then, so I wouldn't always have to write out "Father and Son and Spirit," I probably would've come up with a shorthand like "the Threefold One" or something.



But if you TRULY believe what you offer so far as your 'biblical conclusion', SHOW us the EVIDENCE. Show us where in the Bible, or ANY WHERE ELSE, God offered inspiration to use ANY Bible to illustrate the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit.

I don't only BELIEVE it, it is God's Word. But, if one STARTS with a faulty foundation, what is NEEDED to understand is destroyed before it can ever become manifest in TRUTH.

The 'relationship' is DESCRIBED as 'Father and Son'. How did you miss that if you have ever READ the Bible? That IS the relationship. And WE TOO can share that SAME relationship through LOVE. And THAT is the KEY. Not trying to define something that cannot be defined by someone that doesn't even understand it. LOVE. ALL we NEED to KNOW in order to KNOW God through His Son is LOVE. The 'tricky part' is actually LEARNING what they word MEANS.

For what the world has taught men to BELIEVE the word means is LUST. Those 'things' make us FEEL good are the things we are taught to LOVE. But TRUE love isn't about FEELING GOOD. It is about SHARING. And the world HATES to share ANYTHING but misery. Everything else they COVET and try to hoard as their OWN.

But if one doesn't START with the proper FOUNDATION, love is something that they will NEVER even truly comprehend.

So the PROOF or ANSWER that you ask for couldn't be MORE obvious to those that have the ability to SEE. But darkness has blinded the hearts of many to the point that such IDEAS and CONCEPTS as 'trinity' are more important than the SIMPLE understanding of LOVE.

God is the FATHER of Christ. Christ was 'created' BEFORE mankind. Christ was instrumental IN the 'creation of mankind'. And we can SHARE that SAME relationship through LOVE. We were 'created' in the IMAGE of God. God IS LOVE. We become ONE with God when we openly SHARE our love with Him through His Son.

But these IDEAS are obviously pretty TOUGH for some to comprehend. For even the MAJORITY of those CLAIMING to be followers don't have a CLUE as to HOW to share with their neighbors. More important are 'family vacations', fancy cars, how much MONEY they have in the bank, and making sure that their houses are impressive enough. The concept of HELPING others if it calls for ANY sort of sacrifice is not even something they want to HEAR about, much less make any EFFORT towards. Yet they like to BELIEVE they are 'followers'.

I know. My words ARE kind of 'painful' aren't they. And when words hurt others, their USUAL reaction is to STRIKE OUT. To cause some sort of EQUAL pain in the one whose words 'hurt'. But I'm not interested in being 'politically correct' or being a MAN pleaser by refusing to face the TRUTH. I LIKE the TRUTH. Even when it HURTS. Call me a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. But I REVEL in the TRUTH sometimes BECAUSE it's PAINFUL. For I have been promised that if I FOLLOW in TRUTH, the world will HATE me. So I seek NO 'love of this world' or those that are a PART of it in spirit. And the WORLD DOES INDEED, hate me. How about YOU?


But since there was no Bible when the New Testament was written, well, God couldn't have told us to use the Bible to interpret the New Testament.



Apparently, a lot of Trinitarianism derives from the hypermonism of the Gnostics. This is very strange and actually incoherent in ways, but goes to show how it wasn't just outsiders to the early Christian movement who believed in things that led to the official declaration of the Trinity.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

You like those little toy things. They are really just meant as insults. You're getting desperate to find illogic in my posts, probably cause you have a knawin feeling that your theology is totally illogical. I think all Trinitarians have that knowing feeling that they try and surpress.
I got your message, I offered for you not to speak to so you wouldn't have to hear it anymore. you in effect were telling me to shut up , I was in effect telling you if you don't like it don't speak to me.

your nature of God thing is nonsense. God is not a nature. your explanations are just convoluted explanations usually full of misnomers, and vague terminology so that no one has the vaguest idea what you mean. And that's the whole point of explaining how 3 is one. Confuse um till they throw up their hands and quit. works like a charm.

How about this:

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it. [Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice]

or Thomas Jefferson:


No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity; and was among the efficacious doctrines which gave it triumph over the polytheism of the ancients, sickened with the absurdities of their own theology. Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the fanatic Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs. And a strong proof of the solidity of the primitive faith, is its restoration, as soon as a nation arises which vindicates to itself the freedom of religious opinion, and its external divorce from the civil authority. The pure and simple unity of the Creator of the universe, is now all but ascendant in the Eastern States; it is dawning in the West, and advancing towards the South; and I confidently expect that the present generation will see Unitarianism become the general religion of the United States. The Eastern presses are giving us many excellent pieces on the subject, and Priestley's learned writings on it are, or should be, in every hand. In fact, the Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."

Blessings,

MEC

 

[2ducklow]

How about this:

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it. [Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice]

or Thomas Jefferson:


No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity; and was among the efficacious doctrines which gave it triumph over the polytheism of the ancients, sickened with the absurdities of their own theology. Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the fanatic Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs. And a strong proof of the solidity of the primitive faith, is its restoration, as soon as a nation arises which vindicates to itself the freedom of religious opinion, and its external divorce from the civil authority. The pure and simple unity of the Creator of the universe, is now all but ascendant in the Eastern States; it is dawning in the West, and advancing towards the South; and I confidently expect that the present generation will see Unitarianism become the general religion of the United States. The Eastern presses are giving us many excellent pieces on the subject, and Priestley's learned writings on it are, or should be, in every hand. In fact, the Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."

Blessings,

MEC

frustrating ain't it. But really it's perfectly understandable. Put a gun to peoples head and they will believe and say anything. The gun they have to their head is 'if you don't believe trinity you are not a Christian".

 

[katerinah1947]

How about this:

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it. [Robert A. Heinlein, JOB: A Comedy of Justice]

or Thomas Jefferson:


No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity; and was among the efficacious doctrines which gave it triumph over the polytheism of the ancients, sickened with the absurdities of their own theology. Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the fanatic Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs. And a strong proof of the solidity of the primitive faith, is its restoration, as soon as a nation arises which vindicates to itself the freedom of religious opinion, and its external divorce from the civil authority. The pure and simple unity of the Creator of the universe, is now all but ascendant in the Eastern States; it is dawning in the West, and advancing towards the South; and I confidently expect that the present generation will see Unitarianism become the general religion of the United States. The Eastern presses are giving us many excellent pieces on the subject, and Priestley's learned writings on it are, or should be, in every hand. In fact, the Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."

Blessings,

MEC

Hi guys,
It is my understanding that virtually nobody understands their own religion well.
It is my understanding that virtually no one understands God well.

If you persist, what else do you think will find that is already not found?

It is my understanding that no one who knows God personally is understood.

If you persist, what do you think you will learn, how to understand mystics?

You ask God really, why if He is trinitarian in any way, why He does not personally come down to you, bow to your will, and tell everyone about Himself, if He is trinitarian or not. That is a valid question, but to imply because He does not, to imply anything almost, is wrong.

You say rightly that it takes very little for God, to be happy with a person. You said, it only takes a belief that Jesus is the Son of God.

I will offer you this. I have seen The Essence of God. I actually know God quite well, compared to a lot of people, and no I am not talking intellectually. It is personal. Do you need that to live? Do you need that?
...Katerina.

 

[2ducklow]

Hi guys,
It is my understanding that virtually nobody understands their own religion well.
It is my understanding that virtually no one understands God well.

I understand my beliefs, and I understand God well. Just because you don't understand him doesn't mean everyone doesn't. the bible tells us to get understanding with all our getting. you can't get understanding with a nonunderstandable doctrine such as trinity. all you can get with further study of it is more confusion and nonunderstanding. but if you study God's word and understand it then you understand God more and more as you understand his word. So we disagree on a very basic here.

If you persist, what else do you think will find that is already not found?

Actually I learn a little bit more every time I have these sorts of discussions. What I have learned in this rather long discourse is that Trinitarians and non Trinitarians have different bibles. The Trinitarian bible says "Jesus is God' and "God is a trinity". the bible I have doesn't say that.

It is my understanding that no one who knows God personally is understood.

people who know god understand me, people who know God don't understand me. knowing God doesn't determine whether I am understood or not.

If you persist, what do you think you will learn, how to understand mystics?

it's a parlor game for me. it's like playing chess. I don't expect to convert anyone, I expect to win the chess game. And I always do, it's just that i'm the only one who knows it. butt that's good enough for me.

You ask God really, why if He is trinitarian in any way, why He does not personally come down to you, bow to your will, and tell everyone about Himself, if He is trinitarian or not. That is a valid question, but to imply because He does not, to imply anything almost, is wrong.

It's just one factor, there's a whole boatload more.

You say rightly that it takes very little for God, to be happy with a person. You said, it only takes a belief that Jesus is the Son of God.

I will offer you this. I have seen The Essence of God. I actually know God quite well, compared to a lot of people, and no I am not talking intellectually. It is personal. Do you need that to live? Do you need that?
...Katerina.

I know God quite well too, and I too know God personally. it doesn't prove you or me or anyone is right because they know God.

 

[4x4toy]

What is the difference between Moses , Muhammad and Jesus

 

[Ripheus27]

I was an atheist because I had very, very, very strict standards of logic, and no argument on behalf of Christianity had met those standards. I don't reject logic to believe in the Trinity; I would have rather rejected the religion entirely than reject logic.

And Imagician, you should know better than to argue from your self-righteousness to the conclusion that we ought to believe you've never had a vision of the Trinity. You can't prove to me that you are such a good person just by saying that you are. Also, Jesus revealed the Father to men like Peter and even Judas Iscariot (both of whom would betray or let down their very Savior!), but not to the "holy" Pharisees or whoever. Maybe your pride is getting in the way of your perception of the truth. Or worse, you HAVE seen the Trinity, and are lying to both yourself and us on this count. But such a "worse" is mere speculation; the point is, anecdotal evidence is not fit for arguing on a forum about such a thing. It is question-begging, more or less.

 

[Ripheus27]

Also, what, exactly, are supposed to be the negative results of believing in the Trinity? Does this belief lead us to hate God, or other people? Or does believing that the highest possible authority set this authority aside, refusing to avail Himself of His almighty power, and in humility served sinners, even those who would be accomplices in the first, second, or at least third degree in His murder: doesn't this prove to us how important humility is in God's eyes? And wouldn't a world where people didn't base their self-esteem on competing with others for greater honor, who didn't want to be authorities and powers over others, be a far better one? So as I see it, the doctrine of the Incarnation at least is morally superior to e.g. Arianism (even if the superiority is not as of good to bad, but of better to good).

 

[katerinah1947]

I understand my beliefs, and I understand God well.
Religion, not beliefs. Do you understand your religion well?

Just because you don't understand him doesn't mean everyone doesn't.

Amazingly impertinent, how have you determined, that the God I met, the one who talked to me in His own personal voice, the one who sits right beside me, some of the time, the one I interface with, the one others have validated all that I have said so far, that Him, I do not know well. You can say, my God is false. You can say anything.

the bible tells us to get understanding with all our getting.

Which comes from Wisdom testing you for honesty, and when and if you pass that test of honesty, then you start getting undstanding etc.. only then.

you can't get understanding with a nonunderstandable doctrine such as trinity.

It is non understandable to you, and how is your not being able to understand something make it false? It does not.

all you can get with further study of it is more confusion and nonunderstanding.

Yes, but did you not even understand what I wrote above? If you did not, then surely you cannot hope, to understand God, as what was said above is simple.

but if you study God's word and understand it then you understand God more and more as you understand his word.

If you are honest, if you are nice, both of those are also required.

So we disagree on a very basic here.

No, I do not disagree with you that I know of, except in your understanding. What does it mean to you, that mystics are not understood? What?


Actually I learn a little bit more every time I have these sorts of discussions. What I have learned in this rather long discourse is that Trinitarians and non Trinitarians have different bibles.

I never said, to you that my understanding comes from a Bible or Bibles, I said that I saw The Essence of God.

The Trinitarian bible says "Jesus is God' and "God is a trinity". the bible I have doesn't say that.

Great, then try this, unless your point is only to win, in that case, honesty is not resident in you sufficiently, to understand anything but the basics.

people who know god understand me, people who know God don't understand me.

How, is that possible, when not only do I know God, I have seen Him and more, and I know what you know, and it is incompleted.

knowing God doesn't determine whether I am understood or not.

The point of that is, after I saw God, and Jesus popped inside of me, letting me know at His Core what and who He is, after those events, I tried and tried to tell people of them, and few if any understood me. Part of the point is everyone like me is said to not be understood, when they try to tell others, who have not seen God personally in any way, what thier experiences were. Is that what you understood me to say above? Is that?

it's a parlor game for me. it's like playing chess. I don't expect to convert anyone, I expect to win the chess game.

Ah! Winning! Just do this to me. Say I am nuts. Although no Psychologist or Psychiatrist willl agree with you. Say the devil talked to me, not God. Pick one or make up your own

And I always do, it's just that i'm the only one who knows it.

Sounds very Narcissistic, and I do mean the professional version of that. Criminals also feel that way.

butt that's good enough for me.

Please tell me that you are not a narcissist, or something similar. Please.

It's just one factor, there's a whole boatload more.

So, you admit it seems to me, that because God does not do your will, you can say anything you like about Him. Yet, the God of Jesus that you say, you know tells me and you to do God's Will and not your own. Peter was called Satan, by Jesus for doing Peter's Will on one subject, and not God's Will, on that subject. All our examples are about doing God's will and you don't seem to know that, you who claim you know God so well. You who want God to do your will on this.


I know God quite well too, and I too know God personally.

Wonderful, then I have made a mistake. You know what He feels like. You know what He sounds like. You know the personal voice of Jesus. You know the personal voice of God The Father. You know what The Holy Spirit sounds like. You have seen the doves of The Holy Spirit come down from heaven. You have had God The Father ask you a personal question. You have answered that question, or you have had Jesus ask you a personal qeustion and you know God that way. I am very doubtful you do, but if you do, then you and I would not be disagreeing. We would not.

it doesn't prove you or me or anyone is right because they know God.

So, we are back to God the pupply dog again. If God doesn't do precisely what you want and when you want it, then that is not God.

Hi,
I said I work with God personally. I did. What does He feel like? What is He like? What does Jesus feel like? Why does He love? Since you know God surely you can tell me, and we have to agree, else one of us has some more work to do, OR, let God lead.
...Katerina.

 

[justlookinla]

What is the difference between Moses , Muhammad and Jesus

Only one was the Christ, the Lamb of God?

 

[Ripheus27]

That would only mean that one of them (Jesus) ended up being the Chosen One, not why Jesus was the Chosen One, which is the difference 4x4toy might be asking after?

 

[justlookinla]

That would only mean that one of them (Jesus) ended up being the Chosen One, not why Jesus was the Chosen One, which is the difference 4x4toy might be asking after?

Maybe so. Coming into the thread late, I could have missed that.

 

[2ducklow]

Wonderful, then I have made a mistake. You know what He feels like. You know what He sounds like. You know the personal voice of Jesus. You know the personal voice of God The Father. You know what The Holy Spirit sounds like. You have seen the doves of The Holy Spirit come down from heaven. You have had God The Father ask you a personal question. You have answered that question, or you have had Jesus ask you a personal qeustion and you know God that way. I am very doubtful you do, but if you do, then you and I would not be disagreeing. We would not

I haven't seen doves, but I've seen lots of other stuff. I see it every church service. For a while not to long ago I was seeing red rose pedals falling on the congregation, and while Lillie falling on a very black friend of mine. It was so beautiful seeing those while lilies cascading over her head and falling down over her body as her face was radiating the agape love of God to me.
this night Angels were kissing me , and other stuff. I waved at them and that caused them to come to add me in getting closer to God, feeling his agape love deeper. I feel it without angel help but they help me go deeper in it. Also during the sermon I saw what appeared to be a fairly large rat running very fast on the floor then up to the ceiling then across the ceiling, then it went to the angels surrounding the pastor and those angels then hurled head size snow balls at me .. Not sure what it meant, but I think it means purity, they are hurling purity at me to help make me pure for the bridegroom. The rat represents my imperfections which they are going to change to purity. an angel just kissed me when I said that so that must be it. I added it to my angel/visions/dreams book. It would probably be enough to write say a 500 page book with.. Maybe someday I will. I can't tell this stuff to anyone in church, they don't wanna hear it so I write down all my numerous angelic experiences At least I can tell it to myself. and I read it sometimes latter and it brings back the experience to me. so it has practical value writing them down. I aam so blessed to have been given so many wonderful angel friends.

.Please tell me that you are not a narcissist, or something similar. Please.

It seems people in here can't tell when I tell a joke. I thought it was obvious. The joke was, of course I think I'm right, of course I think I won, because if I thought you won i'd be saying what you said. get it? Do you think what you said was right on? of course you do, and so do I about what I said. Get it?

Hi,
I said I work with God personally. I did. What does He feel like? What is He like? What does Jesus feel like? Why does He love? Since you know God surely you can tell me, and we have to agree, else one of us has some more work to do, OR, let God lead.
...Katerina.

I experience God and Jesus by the tremendous agape love of God that god pours out on me, and with that love they pour out on me I pour it back on them. Experienceing God is agape love to overflowing levels. to levels where I feel like I"m gonna bust cause I can't take it anymore. I felt it just tonight at church. Caught away in God's love to estatic levels where I feel like I'm not in this world anymore.

Also of course God speaks to me through out the day, and I feel his presence and guidance through the day. but at church, it's gangbusters agape love. His angels kissing me and bringing me into the presence of the Lord and his agape love. I am truly blessed because God gets me caught away in estatic agape love every church service. It just keeps getting better and better, and deeper and deeper.

 

[katerinah1947]

I haven't seen doves, but I've seen lots of other stuff. I see it every church service. For a while not to long ago I was seeing red rose pedals falling on the congregation, and while Lillie falling on a very black friend of mine. It was so beautiful seeing those while lilies cascading over her head and falling down over her body as her face was radiating the agape love of God to me.
this night Angels were kissing me , and other stuff. I waved at them and that caused them to come to add me in getting closer to God, feeling his agape love deeper. I feel it without angel help but they help me go deeper in it. Also during the sermon I saw what appeared to be a fairly large rat running very fast on the floor then up to the ceiling then across the ceiling, then it went to the angels surrounding the pastor and those angels then hurled head size snow balls at me .. Not sure what it meant, but I think it means purity, they are hurling purity at me to help make me pure for the bridegroom. The rat represents my imperfections which they are going to change to purity. an angel just kissed me when I said that so that must be it. I added it to my angel/visions/dreams book. It would probably be enough to write say a 500 page book with.. Maybe someday I will. I can't tell this stuff to anyone in church, they don't wanna hear it so I write down all my numerous angelic experiences At least I can tell it to myself. and I read it sometimes latter and it brings back the experience to me. so it has practical value writing them down. I aam so blessed to have been given so many wonderful angel friends.
It seems people in here can't tell when I tell a joke. I thought it was obvious. The joke was, of course I think I'm right, of course I think I won, because if I thought you won i'd be saying what you said. get it? Do you think what you said was right on? of course you do, and so do I about what I said. Get it?



I experience God and Jesus by the tremendous agape love of God that god pours out on me, and with that love they pour out on me I pour it back on them. Experienceing God is agape love to overflowing levels. to levels where I feel like I"m gonna bust cause I can't take it anymore. I felt it just tonight at church. Caught away in God's love to estatic levels where I feel like I'm not in this world anymore.

Also of course God speaks to me through out the day, and I feel his presence and guidance through the day. but at church, it's gangbusters agape love. His angels kissing me and bringing me into the presence of the Lord and his agape love. I am truly blessed because God gets me caught away in estatic agape love every church service. It just keeps getting better and better, and deeper and deeper.

I saw the rose petals. I saw them fall on your friend. It is like that with me, when one such as you tells a story from God/Angels of God/Things God causes to happen.
This is great. Do you see any part of this:
I am in a room one day, I am listening. This room is far away from home. I had to go, I was asked. There, A GIFT, was I to get, I saw those letters in my chest. (What did they look like)They were under my skin, then in those days, that too was normal. Then in this room a man speaks. I understood not a word. The talk is over, the baskets come out. (How many). I am not quizzing you but you might also see what I see, and be much much like me. The baskets though are filled with things. Things they are giving, and I thought it was all a hoax. I thought I was deceived. When over and we can finally leave, it is not there is more. The man eventually comes to me. He refused to put his hand on my head. I had some thoughts on that. Eventually he must have, as he dissapeared because God in Him appeared. Then he was gone, because God is so bright. God is that bright. When God went away after I sinned with Him to the side I felt Him. Which side was that? I will give you all these answers and more. Also what did God look like, His essence? Can you see that?
God's love is greater than Agape, that He put in me one day. I startled even my co-workers, and that part I would not tell them then. How could I tell them that for awhile, I loved like the Father loves.
I say you are totally real. I say you are. You, may PM me please, or lets talk here for all to see. What God has revealed to you.
...Katerina., He, They and all the holy ones.

 

[katerinah1947]

I haven't seen doves, but I've seen lots of other stuff. I see it every church service. For a while not to long ago I was seeing red rose pedals falling on the congregation, and while Lillie falling on a very black friend of mine. It was so beautiful seeing those while lilies cascading over her head and falling down over her body as her face was radiating the agape love of God to me.
this night Angels were kissing me , and other stuff. I waved at them and that caused them to come to add me in getting closer to God, feeling his agape love deeper. I feel it without angel help but they help me go deeper in it. Also during the sermon I saw what appeared to be a fairly large rat running very fast on the floor then up to the ceiling then across the ceiling, then it went to the angels surrounding the pastor and those angels then hurled head size snow balls at me .. Not sure what it meant, but I think it means purity, they are hurling purity at me to help make me pure for the bridegroom. The rat represents my imperfections which they are going to change to purity. an angel just kissed me when I said that so that must be it. I added it to my angel/visions/dreams book. It would probably be enough to write say a 500 page book with.. Maybe someday I will. I can't tell this stuff to anyone in church, they don't wanna hear it so I write down all my numerous angelic experiences At least I can tell it to myself. and I read it sometimes latter and it brings back the experience to me. so it has practical value writing them down. I aam so blessed to have been given so many wonderful angel friends.
It seems people in here can't tell when I tell a joke. I thought it was obvious. The joke was, of course I think I'm right, of course I think I won, because if I thought you won i'd be saying what you said. get it? Do you think what you said was right on? of course you do, and so do I about what I said. Get it?

Actually yes, yes I do, now. I do not always think I am right. I do not. How you can say that, is not understandable, unless you joked there also.

Should everyone know when you are joking? Should everyone know what you mean, when you joke?



I experience God and Jesus by the tremendous agape love of God that god pours out on me, and with that love they pour out on me I pour it back on them. Experienceing God is agape love to overflowing levels. to levels where I feel like I"m gonna bust cause I can't take it anymore. I felt it just tonight at church. Caught away in God's love to estatic levels where I feel like I'm not in this world anymore.

Also of course God speaks to me through out the day, and I feel his presence and guidance through the day. but at church, it's gangbusters agape love. His angels kissing me and bringing me into the presence of the Lord and his agape love. I am truly blessed because God gets me caught away in estatic agape love every church service. It just keeps getting better and better, and deeper and deeper.

And now I've seen the rest of this. You are real. Please let me tell you hopefully of what you already know, all visions are only interpreted correctly by the one receiving the vision. Only you, like with the snow balls and the rat, Only you know what it means. Only you.
However, the rat went up the left side. It went up the left side of the opening, that has boards, like a giant door casing. It went up the top board also, and when in the middle the barage began, in your face the snowballs flew, and in your words were helping to purify you, and soon you could see not that rat, as your vision blurred from that onslaught.
...Katie., I have no idea, how I will get to sleep quickly after you. What do you want to tell me? What?
...Katie.,