Really? Trinity?

[Albion]

Looks like you aren't going to reread the part you didn't understand, so I'll put it to you again.

The knowledge of the Trinity is available, has been made available, to all who own or can lay their hands on a copy of the Bible or who have someone to tell them what's in it. And that applies to both believers and non-believers. If any of them does not believe in the triune God, it is not for want of having been informed. There are (other) reasons, but that's not one of them.

 

[Albion]

What I meant was that unitarians are unitarians in theory and Trinitarians in practice.

I appreciate the clarification, but I don't know why you'd say that. What makes you think that Unitarians are actually Trinitarians? All the ones I know are, in fact, Unitarians.

 

[Ripheus27]

What I mean is that there is no discernible difference between their attitude towards Jesus and towards God, no variation in love or adoration or submission or whatever, except maybe a greater manifest love for the Savior inasmuch as they still speak of Him more than the Father, nothing--except they withhold from legitimate use the word "God" and synonyms for the person of Christ. I mean, they will even call Him "Lord" constantly without batting an eye, even when "the Lord" was the cover used for "YHWH" throughout the Old Testament.

 

[Albion]

What I mean is that there is no discernible difference between their attitude towards Jesus and towards God, no variation in love or adoration or submission or whatever, except maybe a greater manifest love for the Savior inasmuch as they still speak of Him more than the Father, nothing--except they withhold from legitimate use the word "God" and synonyms for the person of Christ. I mean, they will even call Him "Lord" constantly without batting an eye, even when "the Lord" was the cover used for "YHWH" throughout the Old Testament.

OK, I get your point, although I seriously doubt that most Unitarians think in the fashion you've described. Most of those that I know and know of are more like modern Deists, which is to say believers in something greater than themselves, etc. etc. and not much that the Bible reveals other than that Jesus was a kindly teacher. But it hardly amounts to them being de facto Trinitarians in any case.

 

[Imagican]

There is copious Biblical evidence for Father, Son and Holy Spirit; see John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, Matthew 28, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.

That simply is NOT TRUE. The ONLY way that it APPEARS to be evidence is when one ALREADY has been introduced to "TRINITY".

I personally see NOTHING offered in the Bible from the first page to the last that even INDICATES the POSSIBILITY of 'trinity'.

But I have found a TON of evidence offered in the Bible that CONTRADICTS it. Including warnings that there WOULD come those AFTER the apostles that would introduce DAMNABLE HERESIES.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The Gospel of Thomas and other related documents (e.g. the Trimorphic Protennoia, I think it's called) contain early Christian Trinitarian kinds of sayings. The doctrine of the Trinity in some form was being taught, that is, by both of the main divisions within the early Church* (the Gnostic and Catholic divisions, that is), and from a fairly early time. Indeed, given Catholic antagonism towards Gnosticism, that the RCC would accept the doctrine of the Trinity, which was first formulated (in writing), more or less, by the Gnostics, bolsters the idea that this doctrine was not something the RCC just made up out of thin air, but inherited from the days of the apostolic Church.

*These are the factions I'm aware of, but I'm not entirely well-versed about the primitive faith to say whether there were other major groups within the foundational Christian movement.

Your 'guesswork' isn't as far off as some will probably insist.

The idea of 'multi part' gods didn't come from within 'ANY' sect of Christianity. The Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, ALL held high esteem for their 'multi part gods'. They simply INTRODUCED this exact same understanding into their NEWLY formed 'religion': Christianity.

The 'Christianity' that was INTRODUCED into Rome is NOT what the RCC turned it INTO. Once it began to become 'organized' by the ROMANS themselves, it was UTTERLY altered into a completely DIFFERENT form than that introduced by the apostles.

The Gnostics were merely another FORM of previous pagan beliefs in the wisdom of men who ADOPTED their particular interpretation of the writings of the apostles.

As if obvious to any that have done even cursory study of the different denominations, it is perfectly CLEAR that MOST vary simply because of the PREVIOUS beliefs of those that have READ the Bible and interjected their OWN understanding into it.

It was no different with those in ROME once 'Christianity' became an ORGANIZED religion. Once men began to DEFINE it according to their OWN wisdom, combined with their previous pagan beliefs, it became a NEW form of their PREVIOUS religions. Rome didn't START OVER with Christ. They simply viewed this NEW information as being an evolution of their previous RELIGIONS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

i think all truths from God have to be seen through the Holy spirit but the trinity is not any different from all truths

 

[Imagican]

Der alter,

There are about a BILLION Catholics out there that would argue AGAINST what you have offered.

I have debated the issue for many years. The Catholic Church TEACHES that Peter, (the apostle), was the FIRST POPE of Rome. And that through apostolic succession, (through the laying on of hands), that EXACT authority has been passed down to the present.

So, you can talk AROUND the issue and try to refute what has been offered, but the TRUTH isn't altered by personal opinion.

Constantine was NOT a 'Christian' by any stretch of the imagination. And he was NOT an 'Arian'. He COMMANDED that Arius be EXCOMMUNICATED from the 'Church' and it wasn't until many years LATER that he commanded that Arius be brought BACK into the 'Church'. And all indications are that Arius, on his way back to be re-introduced into the 'Church' was poisoned and died.

Constantine wasn't really ANYTHING but a USER of which ever leader or group happened in indicate it would serve him BEST. He was a PAGAN. He was a MURDERER. He was the EMPEROR of ROME. Sol Invictus. He FORCED those under his control to pay homage to the idea that HE WAS GOD ON EARTH. And that form of leadership existed up until the DAY HE DIED. The very coinage of Rome at the time plainly illustrates that Constantine payed NO homage to Christ, his Empire payed homage to ONLY HIM as ''God among them".

You and I have had this discussion in the past. The ONLY sources in EXISTENCE that try to indicate that Constantine was a 'Christian' are those PRODUCED by the RCC. Any and ALL secular, (facts according to actual HISTORY), plainly show that Constantine exhibited NO BEHAVIOR that would even INDICATE he was a follower of Christ. He simply USED the NAME of Christ in order to try and unify his empire. He saw it becoming more and more 'common' and witnessed how devoted it's members were and THOUGHT that he could solidify his Empire through this NEW 'religion'. He USED 'Christianity' for his own purposes and desires. But HE himself was NOT a 'Christian'. The ONLY indication that he believed in the possibility on his DEATH BED, (better SAFE than sorry).

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

i think all truths from God have to be seen through the Holy spirit but the trinity is not any different from all truths

Really?

Hmmmm.............. Thou shalt not STEAL. Is that a TRUTH? I know many that are ATHEISTS that recognize that STEALING from others is WRONG. Recognize the TRUTH in those words.

Surely you aren't indicating that atheists are FILLED with the Holy Ghost?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Really?

Hmmmm.............. Thou shalt not STEAL. Is that a TRUTH? I know many that are ATHEISTS that recognize that STEALING from others is WRONG. Recognize the TRUTH in those words.

Surely you aren't indicating that atheists are FILLED with the Holy Ghost?

Blessings,

MEC

of course there are plenty who think stealing and killing are fine so they lack the holy spirit I guess.

most people can read so they get a clue but all are touchable by the Holy Spirit and his prompting that is how people get saved, so the Holy spirit can lead and teach non believers.

 

[Imagican]

I don't think that's so. The Bible gives ample evidence of the Trinity, and that's the reason I believe it, all the church organizations and councils and creeds aside.

Albion,

Let us be HONEST for just ONE moment.

The TRUTH is, without all the 'church organization', councils and creeds, you would have NEVER even HEARD the word "trinity" in reference to the BIBLE.

You cannot tell anyone with honesty that you would have FOUND it on your own since it is IMPOSSIBLE that you did so. You were TAUGHT 'trinity'. For that is the ONLY way that it's POSSIBLE to KNOW of it.

Those that CREATED it openly ADMIT it. It has become such an integral part of 'main stream denominations', that most don't even question it's formation or introduction.

But the TRUTH is that those that 'created it', introduced it into the 'Church', openly admit that it can ONLY be discovered through DIVINE revelation, (just a way of talking around the FACT that it does not exist in the Bible), and even WHEN it is revealed, NO intellect can comprehend it, (it CANNOT be understood by ANY MAN). They even describe it as: 'shrouded in a kind of DARKNESS'.

So before you make statements that indicate you aren't being TRUTHFUL, do us a favor, try and be more honest with yourself and others.

IT is IMPOSSIBLE to find TRINITY in the Bible. Only after being INTRODUCED to 'trinity' can one THEN go INTO the Bible to find the bits and pieces that the 'Church' has used as evidence of it.

'Trinity' is a COMPLETE and UTTER: 'Creation of MAN'. God is NOT a 'multi part god'. God is the ONE and ONLY God: The Father. And His Son is EXACTLY who He stated He was/IS: The Son of God.

And anyone that believes that they can GO BEYOND that by introducing a BETTER understanding is FOOLING themselves. God and Christ are ONE as WE TOO can be ONE with both God and Christ. Oneness offers NO indication of the validity of 'trinity'. A man and woman wed and BECOME ONE. But they are NOT the SAME. They are NOT 1+1=1. They are 1+1=2 that BECOME AS ONE. Just as GOD is ONE and His Son is ONE. That makes TWO that are AS ONE. And Christ's own words are that HIS WISH is that WE become ONE with His Father as HE IS ONE with HIS FATHER.

This is THE understanding that ALL men would possess that have TRULY found the TRUTH as offered IN the Bible without a PRE-INTRODUCTION to 'trinity'.

Ever wonder WHY all the denominations that follow 'trinity' START all their Bible studies with the book of John? Now that I've brought it your attention it should be OBVIOUS. Because they want to TEACH 'trinity' FIRST. For if they stated with the first page of Genesis and let someone read the entire Bible from beginning to end WITHOUT first being introduced to 'trinity', the LEARNER would NOT FIND IT. The 'Churches' would have to expend an inordinate amount of time trying to REPROGRAM them. It's more EFFICIENT to START with the book of John and INSTILL the concept of 'trinity' FROM THE START. Otherwise, they have LEARNED over the centuries that once one begins to KNOW God through His Son WITHOUT the introduction of 'trinity', the subject KNOWS that there is NO validity to 'trinity'.

The 'Church' basically STATES that one MUST believe in 'trinity' in order to follow in TRUTH. Yet this is NOT the TRUTH. MILLIONS that have NEVER accepted this 'fallacy' have been faithful followers. I am one. And I have found absolutely NO evidence of 'trinity' in the Bible. Nothing that would even remotely indicate that Jesus is God as defined by 'trinity'.

ALL indications offered in the Bible are that Christ WAS/IS a 'created' entity. Even the very notion of SON indicates being CREATED. For Christ was God's Son LONG before being manifest in the flesh. ALL indications are that Christ, BEING the LIGHT, was created in the 'beginning' when God SAID, "Let there be LIGHT". For Christ was created BEFORE man. For Christ was instrumental in the very creation of mankind.

But the Bible indicates that Satan is OLDER than Christ. The Bible STATES that Christ was the 'firstborn of every "CREATURE". That indicates that BEFORE any OTHER 'creature' was formed, Christ was formed FIRST and previous what life that existed was SPIRIT.

And we have THIS:

Revelation 3:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
It couldn't be offered MORE plainly: the BEGINNING of the 'Creation of God'. Christ openly STATING that HE IS the 'beginning of the Creation of God. Stated as a TITLE. Stated as a FACT.Just READ it:

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


And we KNOW that this wasn't the creation of the SUN-light or MOON-light or STAR-light, because it wasn't until LATER in the act of 'creation' that THESE were 'created':


14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Now let us travel a bit forward. Let us use the actual book that 'trinitarians' insist is the EVIDENCE of this 'man made doctrine':


John 1:


4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But you cannot understand these words for you have allowed yourself to be blinded by 'trinity'. Men's decision to CREATE a doctrine that teaches that Christ IS God. When the Bible clearly REFUTES the idea in openly STATING that Christ was CREATED by God. That is WHY Christ openly introduced Himself to ALL as 'The Son of God'.

But if your FOUNDATION, what you build ALL your understanding on is "trinity", you can't HELP but build ALL your understanding upon a FALSE foundation. "Trinity" alters almost every piece of TRUE understanding offered IN the Bible.

God demanded that Abraham prove his love by offering sacrifice of his son. If God is LOVE, could He offer anything LESS to prove HIS love to US?

You see, by making Christ GOD, it utterly destroys the message that God was willing to sacrifice HIS SON to prove His love for US just as HE required Abraham to sacrifice HIS son to prove HIS love towards GOD. The difference was that Abraham was STOPPED a mere moment BEFORE actually sacrificing his son. God recognized his sincerity and STOPPED him at the very last moment.

But God DID allow the sacrifice of HIS SON in order to PROVE His love to US. To prove both HIS love AND His Son's love.

But if your foundation is 'trinity', this concept is utterly LOST. It was God's SON that died upon the Cross. Not GOD. Jesus is NOT God. The Father IS God. His Father and OUR Father. God is THE God of Christ as well as OUR God. There is ONLY ONE GOD. At least this is what we are offered in the Bible if one can get BEYOND the idea of 'trinity'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

we may never have heard the word "trinity" but that does not mean the theology was never there.
I hear people say God cannot be against homosexuals because the word was never around then, it is quite clear what God says on the subject.

if the term "triune" was coined or "duet plus one" it wouldn't matter it is not what you call it but what it is.

 

[Imagican]

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

ALL of this proves only ONE THING: you have been an 'apt pupil'. You have bought in to all that you have been TAUGHT as concerns 'trinity'.

But that is not the point. I couldn't care less what scripture one uses to produce a 'false concept'. And we have the evidence that MANY men have done this in the past two thousand years.

Heck, Davey Baby and Jimmy Jones convinced people of all kinds of things while holding the Bible in their hands and reading OUT of it. But neither were OBVIOUSLY actually TEACHING what the Bible ACTUALLY offered. They simply used it to teach their OWN ideas.

Now, of all that you have offered that YOU say indicates 'trinity'. SHOW us where the Bible TEACHES 'trinity'. The word doesn't even EXIST in the Bible.

and then let me ask THIS: 'in WHAT way, as offered in the Bible, does 'trinity' BENEFIT the BELIEVER? How does 'trinity' offer ANYTHING of significance other than an attempt as defining something that can't be defined?

If the relationship between Father and Son is a 'mystery'. How does the formation of ANOTHER mystery make ANY difference in UNDERSTANDING? ALL 'trinity' does is exchange ONE 'mystery' for another. The difference being that the 'mystery' of Godhead IS offered in the Bible. But the 'mystery' of 'trinity' is UTTERLY 'man-made'. It is NOT offered in the Bible.

And if there is NO additional understanding of BENEFIT to an acceptance of 'trinity', WHY do those that believe in it INSIST that one MUST believe in it to be a 'follower of Christ'? Christ NEVER taught men to follow a BELIEF in 'trinity'. The apostles NEVER taught that we MUST believe in 'trinity'. It wasn't until over three hundred years AFTER the death of Christ that the RCC started FORCING "IT'S" followers to profess a belief in and confession of 'trinity'.

And then let us examine the EVOLUTION of 'trinity'. From the first MENTION of this word by the supposed "Fathers of Christianity", it EVOLVED over HUNDREDS of years into it's FINAL form. No OTHER doctrine offered in 'Christianity' needed HUNDREDS of years of evolution to be formulated and established in the 'Church'.

As far as the apostles were concerned, the Gospels ARE the 'good news' and what we have been instructed to share. And there is NO 'trinity' contained within the Gospels.

John the Baptist DID NOT teach 'trinity'. Nor did Matthew, Mark, Luke OR EVEN JOHN. Paul CERTAINLY taught NO 'trinity'.

I have found absolutely NO benefit to this doctrine. NONE. But I have found that those that have built their understanding on this 'foundation' have practically NO means of actually understanding some of the principles offered in the Bible AS they are OFFERED. I can SEE 'trinity' getting in the WAY of TRUE understanding. But I can see 'trinity' offering NOTHING of ANY benefit to TRUE understanding.

Yet those that insist upon it insist that it's "ALL IMPORTANT". Why? What is so ALL IMPORTANT about a doctrine that it's very creators define as a 'mystery' clouded in darkness? incomprehensible by ANY created intellect?

I challenge a SINGLE adherent to this doctrine to show HOW it offers a SINGLE benefit to the BELIEVER. Just ONE benefit in a 'mystery' that is incomprehensible to ANY intellect. And then try to explain to us WHY God would inspire such a 'MAN MADE MYSTERY' to replace the 'mystery' He has already introduced. Explain how 'trinity' offers ANY more TRUE understanding than 'Godhead'.

But I can offer this:

The apostles warned us that there were those that had already gone out FROM AMONG THEM and were teaching a 'false Christ'. Christ Himself offered that MANY would simply USE His name but their hearts would be far far from Him.

If Jesus is NOT God. Then a teaching that insists that He IS would be teaching a FALSE Christ. A 'man made god' instead of The TRUE Son of God. And just LOOK at all that 'false teachings' of those that INTRODUCED 'trinity'. Refusal of priests to wed. Denying the 'cup'. An insistence that one openly profess to BELIEVE that the wafer and grape juice being LITERALLY transformed into the FLESH and BLOOD of Christ. Calling men: 'Father'. Worshiping idols and turning a woman into the MOTHER of God. The QUEEN of HEAVEN. Perpetual virgin even though the Bible STATES that Christ HAD LITERAL brothers and sisters.

And here is the most compelling evidence against ANYTHING offered as TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church that contradict the Bible: 'torturing and murdering people' simply for NOT accepting THEIR teachings. Calling themselves FOLLOWERS of Christ yet torturing and murdering those that refuse to accept THEIR teachings. Is is POSSIBLE to be a TRUE follower of Christ and instead of offering FORGIVENESS, offering physical condemnation and then putting them to DEATH simply because they don't AGREE?

And how about this one: The RCC and it's affiliates teach that THEY have the POWER to keep someone OUT OF HEAVEN. That THEY can determine WHO IS and WHO IS NOT 'saved'. According to MY understanding of the Bible, this is an IMPOSSIBILITY. Only God or Christ Himself can make such determinations.

So, I'll be WAITING, and WAITING, and WAITING..............for someone to SHOW me how a belief in the 'mystery of trinity' is of ANY substantial BENEFIT to the BELIEVER and FOLLOWER of Christ.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

see my point was illustrated in Albion's response. In the eyes of Trinitarians only Trinitarians truly believe. He's saying it's revealed to all who believe. Since we nontrinitarians don't believe the trinity, then according to them, we don't really believe. Problem solved. we ain't even Christians to them.

Either that or he just avoided the portion of your question that asks why isn't it revealed to all that believe. Leave it vague that way you can't be pinned down is a frequent tactic as well. Keep um guessin as to what you believe.

And it ONLY stands to REASON. For that is the EXACT manner in which is was INTRODUCED. Accept it or DIE. PROFESS to believe in 'trinity' or be an OUTCAST or worse.

And what SORT of doctrine would the TRUE 'follower of Christ' introduce in such a manner? I rest my case.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Albion]

ALL of this proves only ONE THING: you have been an 'apt pupil'. You have bought in to all that you have been TAUGHT as concerns 'trinity'.

Well, that's one of the functions of the Holy Scriptures, to inform us.

That said, you could quibble about the language in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, but the Trinity itself is attested to in the Bible. What the Council and the Creed did was merely to put a stamp of approval upon the belief and try a brief explanation of how the three-but-one fact of God's nature is to be understood. The fact of there being a triune nature, however, is plainly Scriptural.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

does the bible say Jesus or his disciples ever went to the toilet?

do you think they ever did?

do you believe homosexuality is ok because the bible never uses the word homosexual?

do you think pedophiles are acceptable to God he never mentions them?

if Jesus is not God who is he?

many scriptures were shown and you dismiss them as showing false doctrine, could what you believe be so easily dismissed?

 

[xpower]

Podcast on the Doctrine of the Trinity and why to believe it right here (reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s5)

 

[Imagican]

To be more precise, I believe that it's available to all, or to all who have a copy of the Bible, since it's there.


That's nonsense. The point is only that you don't believe in the Trinity, that's all.


I can't help feeling that you'd be doing a lot better if you tried to understand what's been written instead of coming out swinging in all directions at once and at imaginary adversaries.

No 'imaginary adversary'. The Catholic Church and MOST of the other denominations MADE enemies of those that refuse to accept 'trinity' since it's introduction.

That is EXACTLY why the 'mainstream denominations' label the JWs as a CULT. Do you propose that such a label is a GOOD thing that one would use to define their FRIENDS?

While YOU are trying to indicate otherwise, I have discussed this issue with YOU and many others that outright STATE that anyone that does NOT accept and believe in 'trinity' are NOT 'true followers'. For one CANNOT be a A 'true follower' without FOLLOWING the TRUTH. And if 'trinity' is the TRUTH, and I refuse to follow it, to YOU who INSIST that it's the TRUTH, I cannot be following IN truth.

The RCC and MOST other mainstream denominations outright STATE in their STATEMENT of FAITH that one MUST believe in THREE PERSONS in ONE God: 'trinity'. So if one MUST believe in it, those that don't AREN'T TRUE followers according to such a 'statement of faith'. Get it STATEMENT of FAITH. If a STATEMENT of FAITH DEMANDS that one MUST believe something, those that DON'T are NOT considered to BE FAITHFUL in the TRUTH. And if not FAITHFUL IN THE TRUTH, then NOT TRUE 'followers'.

This isn't just MY understanding. It IS what the 'churches' TEACH.

I have made an enemy of NO MAN. But those that insist that I MUST believe as THEY DO are the ones attempting to make an enemy OUT OF ME. They are the one's attempting to MAKE me their enemy.

I am not an ENEMY of those that profess 'trinity'. I am an ENEMY of 'trinity'. Not by MY choice, but by the very nature of the doctrine itself.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Well, that's one of the functions of the Holy Scriptures, to inform us.

That said, you could quibble about the language in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, but the Trinity itself is attested to in the Bible. What the Council and the Creed did was merely to put a stamp of approval upon the belief and try a brief explanation of how the three-but-one fact of God's nature is to be understood. The fact of there being a triune nature, however, is plainly Scriptural.

The very CONCEPT of 'triune' is MAN MADE. There is NOTHING offered in the Bible concerning 'trinity'. the USE of three words is NOT an indication of a "TRIUNE' nature EXCEPT in the minds and hearts of MEN. NOTHING offered in the Bible SPEAKS of a 'triune' nature. NOTHING. Not ONE SENTENCE. Only after being introduced into the MAN MADE CONCEPT does it even exist OUTSIDE of the Bible.

Constantine, a PAGAN Emperor DECIDED that in HIS EMPIRE, those that professed to be followers of his NEW 'religion' would, from that day it was decided BY HIM, profess to BELIEVE that Jesus was of the SAME substance as God. No beginning, no end. That was made LAW in his EMPIRE. Regardless of EVIDENCE, a PAGAN Emperor made it LAW. And it ONLY stands to reason that something that is of the EXACT SAME substance IS what it IS. Thus, the foundation for the doctrine of 'trinity' was laid out by a PAGAN Emperor. From the moment that Constantine DICTATED that Jesus was of the SAME substance, it was only a matter of TIME before 'trinity' began to EVOLVE into the doctrine that exists today.

I would offer that is those that BELIEVE that they can replace a 'mystery' offered by God with a 'mystery' made by MEN as the ones attempting to "quibble' with words. I would offer that 'trinity' doesn't even EXIST in the Bible. If it is not the 'trinitarians' that have chosen to 'quibble' over words, SHOW the PROOF. Show the EVIDENCE of 'trinity' being offered in the Bible.

Faith is defined in the Bible. Hope is defined in the Bible. Charity is defined in the Bible. But I have NEVER found where the word 'trinity' even EXISTS in the Bible. WHY? God didn't leave it up to us to define HOPE, FAITH, CHARITY. He didn't leave it up to us to KNOW WHO His Son is. But He DIDN'T choose to define 'trinity' but left it up to a PAGAN Emperor to 'create' and DEFINE?

Funny, but that Bible was offered so that we could COMPARE the teachings of MEN to that offered through direct inspiration. Yet we have NOTHING offered in the Bible concerning "TRINITY". Exactly HOW important could a 'man made doctrine' be that isn't even MENTIONED in the Bible?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Albion]

The very CONCEPT of 'triune' is MAN MADE.

You say that in every post, it seems, but I can still point to a series of verses in the Bible that teach that God is One and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are persona, not forces, distinct from each other, but all identified as God.

Instead of reiterating your position again and again after we all know what it is, it might be a better use of our time if you were to respond squarely to the information above.