Really? Trinity?

[Der Alte]

ALL of this proves only ONE THING: you have been an 'apt pupil'. You have bought in to all that you have been TAUGHT as concerns 'trinity'.

ALL this proves is you are a biased anti- and you don't even have the courtesy to read and respond to what is written you just keep repeating your same old mantra. I have a friend in the far east who spent several years in prison. He was not from a Christian home. While in prison he started reading the Bible with no preconceptions whatsoever. The Bible revealed to him that God was Triune in nature he became a Christian.

But that is not the point. I couldn't care less what scripture one uses to produce a 'false concept'. And we have the evidence that MANY men have done this in the past two thousand years.

As I said you don't even have the courtesy to read what is posted before bashing it.

Heck, Davey Baby and Jimmy Jones convinced people of all kinds of things while holding the Bible in their hands and reading OUT of it. But neither were OBVIOUSLY actually TEACHING what the Bible ACTUALLY offered. They simply used it to teach their OWN ideas.

Irrelevant does not prove anything about the Trinity.

Now, of all that you have offered that YOU say indicates 'trinity'. SHOW us where the Bible TEACHES 'trinity'. The word doesn't even EXIST in the Bible.

Show us where the word of God teaches "Bible?" The word occurs nowhere in scripture.

and then let me ask THIS: 'in WHAT way, as offered in the Bible, does 'trinity' BENEFIT the BELIEVER? How does 'trinity' offer ANYTHING of significance other than an attempt as defining something that can't be defined?

The same benefit we derive from knowing that a certain land formation is a "mountain" or that a certain animal is a "cow." Trinity, mountain and cow are all descriptive titles.

If the relationship between Father and Son is a 'mystery'. How does the formation of ANOTHER mystery make ANY difference in UNDERSTANDING? ALL 'trinity' does is exchange ONE 'mystery' for another. The difference being that the 'mystery' of Godhead IS offered in the Bible. But the 'mystery' of 'trinity' is UTTERLY 'man-made'. It is NOT offered in the Bible.

According to some the "mystery of Godhead" is not taught in the Bible. The word Trinity is a shorthand way of describing the Triune nature of God as revealed in the 86 passages you refused to read.

And if there is NO additional understanding of BENEFIT to an acceptance of 'trinity', WHY do those that believe in it INSIST that one MUST believe in it to be a 'follower of Christ'? Christ NEVER taught men to follow a BELIEF in 'trinity'. The apostles NEVER taught that we MUST believe in 'trinity'. It wasn't until over three hundred years AFTER the death of Christ that the RCC started FORCING "IT'S" followers to profess a belief in and confession of 'trinity'.

I am not RCC so none of this is relevant. The Trinity was known more than 800 years before there was a RCC

And then let us examine the EVOLUTION of 'trinity'. From the first MENTION of this word by the supposed "Fathers of Christianity", it EVOLVED over HUNDREDS of years into it's FINAL form. No OTHER doctrine offered in 'Christianity' needed HUNDREDS of years of evolution to be formulated and established in the 'Church'.

Nonsense! You make claims without any evidence. The Trinity is what it has always been. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God.

As far as the apostles were concerned, the Gospels ARE the 'good news' and what we have been instructed to share. And there is NO 'trinity' contained within the Gospels.

God is revealed as Triune in the Gospels. That the word "Trinity" is not in scripture is irrelevant neither is the word Bible and other words that we use to discuss scripture such as omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Can we say that God is not omnipotent, all powerful, because the word is not in the scripture?

John the Baptist DID NOT teach 'trinity'. Nor did Matthew, Mark, Luke OR EVEN JOHN. Paul CERTAINLY taught NO 'trinity'.

All spoke of God in Trinitarian terms, especially John.

I have found absolutely NO benefit to this doctrine. NONE. But I have found that those that have built their understanding on this 'foundation' have practically NO means of actually understanding some of the principles offered in the Bible AS they are OFFERED. I can SEE 'trinity' getting in the WAY of TRUE understanding. But I can see 'trinity' offering NOTHING of ANY benefit to TRUE understanding.

What you "see" or "understand" has no relevance to the fact that God is Triune.

Yet those that insist upon it insist that it's "ALL IMPORTANT". Why? What is so ALL IMPORTANT about a doctrine that it's very creators define as a 'mystery' clouded in darkness? incomprehensible by ANY created intellect?

Who said anything about "ALL IMPORTANT?" Since you are anti-Trinitarian feel free to leave and let us who do believe in the Trinity discuss it among ourselves. I don't go into your backyard and attack your beliefs.

I challenge a SINGLE adherent to this doctrine to show HOW it offers a SINGLE benefit to the BELIEVER. Just ONE benefit in a 'mystery' that is incomprehensible to ANY intellect. And then try to explain to us WHY God would inspire such a 'MAN MADE MYSTERY' to replace the 'mystery' He has already introduced. Explain how 'trinity' offers ANY more TRUE understanding than 'Godhead'.

You seem quite confused if God inspired it then it is not a "man mad mystery." Other than being a descriptive title, the word "Trinity" is not said to provide any more benefit than the titles "mountain" or "cow."The word Trinity is a way of saying this in one word, There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God.

But I can offer this:

The apostles warned us that there were those that had already gone out FROM AMONG THEM and were teaching a 'false Christ'. Christ Himself offered that MANY would simply USE His name but their hearts would be far far from Him.

You have offered nothing. Not relevant to this topic!

If Jesus is NOT God. Then a teaching that insists that He IS would be teaching a FALSE Christ. A 'man made god' instead of The TRUE Son of God. And just LOOK at all that 'false teachings' of those that INTRODUCED 'trinity'. Refusal of priests to wed. Denying the 'cup'. An insistence that one openly profess to BELIEVE that the wafer and grape juice being LITERALLY transformed into the FLESH and BLOOD of Christ. Calling men: 'Father'. Worshiping idols and turning a woman into the MOTHER of God. The QUEEN of HEAVEN. Perpetual virgin even though the Bible STATES that Christ HAD LITERAL brothers and sisters.

All of this is irrelevant. The understanding of the Triune nature of God preceded all these by 100s of years.

And here is the most compelling evidence against ANYTHING offered as TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church that contradict the Bible: 'torturing and murdering people' simply for NOT accepting THEIR teachings. Calling themselves FOLLOWERS of Christ yet torturing and murdering those that refuse to accept THEIR teachings. Is is POSSIBLE to be a TRUE follower of Christ and instead of offering FORGIVENESS, offering physical condemnation and then putting them to DEATH simply because they don't AGREE?

While this is reprehensible it has nothing to do with whether or not Trinity is a valid way to describe the nature of God.

And how about this one: The RCC and it's affiliates teach that THEY have the POWER to keep someone OUT OF HEAVEN. That THEY can determine WHO IS and WHO IS NOT 'saved'. According to MY understanding of the Bible, this is an IMPOSSIBILITY. Only God or Christ Himself can make such determinations.

All irrelevant. None of this disproves the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, I'll be WAITING, and WAITING, and WAITING..............for someone to SHOW me how a belief in the 'mystery of trinity' is of ANY substantial BENEFIT to the BELIEVER and FOLLOWER of Christ.

Blessings,

MEC

It is not about any "benefit." Trinity/Triune simply describes the nature of God as revealed in the scripture.

 

[2ducklow]

The bible teaches, verses teaches. it's a very common method Trinitarians employ to try and have the bible saying Trinity. Instead of the truth, which is that they interpret scripture to mean trinity, they put the blame on the word of God and say the word of God teaches and says Trinity. It's point, I have found, that cannot register in the Trinitarian mind. Whatever a Trinitarian interprets scripture to mean , in his mind, he hasn't interpreted it, it's the bible teaching and saying it. I think this tactic is necessary for them to hold on to trinity because they have no verse saying trinity.

So to the Trinitarian, they don't interpret any scripture to mean that the Holy Spirit is a persona, The bible teaches that the holy spirit is a persona. If I interpret scriptures about the HOly Spirit and say it's just god personifying his own spirit, and the Holy spirit is the spirit of the one true God, God the Father, that's my interpretation, not what scripture teaches, cause what scripture teaches is whatever they say it does. In effect they are dictating what God is to say.

They have no verses saying Trinity, so they have to make God say it by claiming 'the bible teaches trinity' or 'the bible says trinity" or "the bible says Jesus is God" or "the bible teaches that Jesus is God'. In effect it's a very deceptive way of adding to the word of God.

 

[2ducklow]

Trinitarians can't say what they actually do. What they actually do is interpret scriptures to mean trinity. They can't say that because they have also said your salvation depends on belief in trinity. So they have to put the blame falsely on God by saying , "the bible teaches trinity". They need to tell the truth that it's their interpretation of scripture that God is a trinity. IT's their interpretation of the spurious matthew 28.19 "father son and holy Ghost" that God is a trinity, it's their interpretation of Jesus statement "I and my father are one" that God is a trinity. but they continue to falsely claim that the bible teaches and says those things,, when the truth is it's just their interpretation.

 

[Der Alte]

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]​

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

 

[Der Alte]

The early church fathers quoting Matt 28:19 with the Triadic formula as early as 218 years before it was supposedly added to the Bible. There is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for Matt 28:19 without the triadic formula.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

1. Ignatius – The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus – Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin – 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian – The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian – On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. – Part II. – Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian – Treatise XII.1 – Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen – de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. –
Chapter VII. – Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles – Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian – The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

14. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."​

 

[2ducklow]

Trinity falls apart if Trinitarians ever admit that Trinity is their interpretation of scripture. The reason is that they would no longer be able to lay the blame of the illogic of it on God. And they could therefore never justify it by saying "God is beyond our understanding". Thus they absolutely have to say stuff like "the bible says trinity" or "the bible teaches trinity" . It's there way of adding trinity to the word of god.

I wouldn't dare add to the word of God as they do by saying "the bible says that God personifies the holy spirit". That's my interpretation, and trinity is their interpretation. I have no need to add to the word of God, they do.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Trinity falls apart if Trinitarians ever admit that Trinity is their interpretation of scripture. The reason is that they would no longer be able to lay the blame of the illogic of it on God. And they could therefore never justify it by saying "God is beyond our understanding". Thus they absolutely have to say stuff like "the bible says trinity" or "the bible teaches trinity" . It's there way of adding trinity to the word of god.

I wouldn't dare add to the word of God as they do by saying "the bible says that God personifies the holy spirit". That's my interpretation, and trinity is their interpretation. I have no need to add to the word of God, they do.

but the trinity is clearly how the bible shows the father, son and Holy spirit relationship.

again it seems the word is an issue, what it has been coined does not matter, the fact it is supported by scripture is the important thing.

 

[2ducklow]

but the trinity is clearly how the bible shows the father, son and Holy spirit relationship.

No, Trinity is clearly how Trinitarians interpret scriptures. It's your interpretation of scripture, that trinity is the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My interpretation of Scripture is that God the Father is the one and only true god, and that Jesus is his Son, and that the holy spirit is the spirit of the one and only true God, namely God the Father. You are in effect adding to the word of God by claiming the bible shows trinity. The bible doesn't show trinity. You interpet scripture to mean trinity and by calling your interpretation 'what the bible shows' you are adding to the word of God.

again it seems the word is an issue, what it has been coined does not matter, the fact it is supported by scripture is the important thing.

You're just adding to scripture by claiming scripture supports trinity. the truth is you interpret lots of scripture to mean trinity. I interpret those same scriptures differently, except that I have no need to claim that my inteprretations are what scripture shows, or says, or teaches, as you Trinitarians do.

You can't call your interpretations interpretations because you have no scripture saying trinity. so you have to add it to the word of god by saying those sorts of things.

 

[Albion]

but the trinity is clearly how the bible shows the father, son and Holy spirit relationship.

again it seems the word is an issue, what it has been coined does not matter, the fact it is supported by scripture is the important thing.

But I suppose anyone can say that if you can read and understand the Bible, "it's just your interpretation."

How "Our God is one" is subject to much interpretation, or how "the Word was with God and the word was God" can be a matter of questionable interpretation I don't get, but I'm sure we'll hear it said again. Let's determine that it isn't worth our time to rebut one more time.

 

[2ducklow]

Trinitarians cannot call trinity an interpretation, because if they did, they'd have to justify it logically. Since they can't they have to add it to the word of God by calling it
''what the bible teaches" or some such thing.
But trinity is an interpretation. For it to be scripture you need a verse saying ""God is a trinity of 3 persons that are one God". there is no such verse, and even the closest one to it, the spurious matthew 28.19, doesn't even say it either.

so they have to deny it, usually with such brilliant stuff as

Actually every scripture needs to be interpreted, even if you interpret it word for word, because every scripture could be interpreted literally or figuratively. the key is does it make sense. does a literal interpretation make sense, or does the figurative one make sense? That's a biggie. And that's why trinity absolutely has to be put in the bible some way. and it's done by saying "the bible teaches trinity" or some even go further and say "the bible says Jesus is God" or "the bible clearly shows Trinity". It's all adding to the word of God in such a way that most don't realize it, even the ones doing it.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

No, Trinity is clearly how Trinitarians interpret scriptures. It's your interpretation of scripture, that trinity is the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My interpretation of Scripture is that God the Father is the one and only true god, and that Jesus is his Son, and that the holy spirit is the spirit of the one and only true God, namely God the Father. You are in effect adding to the word of God by claiming the bible shows trinity. The bible doesn't show trinity. You interpet scripture to mean trinity and by calling your interpretation 'what the bible shows' you are adding to the word of God.
You're just adding to scripture by claiming scripture supports trinity. the truth is you interpret lots of scripture to mean trinity. I interpret those same scriptures differently, except that I have no need to claim that my inteprretations are what scripture shows, or says, or teaches, as you Trinitarians do.

You can't call your interpretations interpretations because you have no scripture saying trinity. so you have to add it to the word of god by saying those sorts of things.

you argue the term "trinity" is that the only problem you have with it.
You have been shown loads of scriptures that support the trinity.

Is God not against homosexuals because that word was not invented then, is God not against pedophiles because that word was not invented then.

forgetting the word "trinity" the concept is biblical and supported by scripture lots of scripture.

many teach on the millenium, the word never appears in the bible.

 

[2ducklow]

you argue the term "trinity" is that the only problem you have with it.
You have been shown loads of scriptures that support the trinity.

what you really have is loads of scriptures that you interpret to mean trinity'. I have a totally different interpretation of those same loads of scriptures. I just don't call my interrpertations 'what the word of god teaches' as you guys do your interpretations.
cause I have no need to add to the word of God, cause I have no need to justify illogic.

Is God not against homosexuals because that word was not invented then, is God not against pedophiles because that word was not invented then.

forgetting the word "trinity" the concept is biblical and supported by scripture lots of scripture.

you're just adding to the word of god by claiming scripture support it, when in fact it's your interpretation of scriptures that support it. For a scripture to support the doctrine that Jesus is the son of God, you need scripture saying that. For a scripture to support trinity, you need a scripture saying that. But none say that, so you're forced to resort to adding it to the word of God by saying here'' trinity is biblical" . That's just another way of putting the word trinity in the bible.

many teach on the millenium, the word never appears in the bible.

1000 years is, and 1000 years is just another way of saying millinium. there is no word in the bible that equates to trinity. the closest is the spurious john 5.7 where Trinitarians tried to put '3 are one' in the bible. But even if that is scripture trinity is just one of several possible INTERPRETATIONS. 'these three are one', logically would mean that the father son and holy spirit are one in purpose. the illogical INTERPRETATION would be that 3 beings are one being.

 

[Ripheus27]

Nowhere in the Bible do we have a passage that says, "Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, ... Job, ... Matthew, ... Hebrews, ... Revelation are the only books in all history that God will ever inspire as scripture." Neither, out of all the myriad passages about salvation, do we have any that specifically summarizes all the conditions attached to salvation. For purposes of saving time and paper-space, we don't want to have to constantly recap all these things in every worded detail. So we make up words that refer to all the same information, but that are shorter than the original expression of the information.

Of course, if the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God or that the Spirit is not the Father, 2ducklow's argument is fine enough. 2ducklow thinks all passages stating that Jesus is God are misinterpreted or mistranslated when they state such, though. He also thinks that we think 3 can = 1 all by itself, even though we never say that the number 3 is the same as the number 1. He also says that the 3 Persons could be "one" in the sense of united in purpose, but that this is not what Trinitarians mean. However, there is an entire school of Trinitarianism, the Social Trinitarian camp, that tries to explain the oneness of the 3 Persons in such terms.

 

[2ducklow]

Nowhere in the Bible do we have a passage that says, "Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, ... Job, ... Matthew, ... Hebrews, ... Revelation are the only books in all history that God will ever inspire as scripture." Neither, out of all the myriad passages about salvation, do we have any that specifically summarizes all the conditions attached to salvation. For purposes of saving time and paper-space, we don't want to have to constantly recap all these things in every worded detail. So we make up words that refer to all the same information, but that are shorter than the original expression of the information.

Of course, if the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God or that the Spirit is not the Father, 2ducklow's argument is fine enough. 2ducklow thinks all passages stating that Jesus is God

You've just added to the word of God because no verse says or states that Jesus is God.

are misinterpreted or mistranslated when they state such, though. He also thinks that we think 3 can = 1 all by itself, even though we never say that the number 3 is the same as the number 1.

triitarians put it in the bible in the form of "these three are one". since they inteprert it to mean 3 beings are one being, they are interpreting it to mean that the number 3 is the numer 1.
3 is one.

He also says that the 3 Persons could be "one" in the sense of united in purpose, but that this is not what Trinitarians mean.

that is what I would translate matthew 28.19 to mean if it were actually scripture. Trinitarians say matthew 28.9 teaches trinity. which is there way of adding it to scripture. they don't say they interpret matthew 28.19 to mean trinity, cause then they would have to justify the illogic of naming 3 gods and calling 3 gods one god, then denying that they named 3 gods with the usual,, God is beyond our understanding. The truth is their doctrine is beyond anyone's understanding.

However, there is an entire school of Trinitarianism, the Social Trinitarian camp, that tries to explain the oneness of the 3 Persons in such terms.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

what you really have is loads of scriptures that you interpret to mean trinity'. I have a totally different interpretation of those same loads of scriptures. I just don't call my interrpertations 'what the word of god teaches' as you guys do your interpretations.
cause I have no need to add to the word of God, cause I have no need to justify illogic.
you're just adding to the word of god by claiming scripture support it, when in fact it's your interpretation of scriptures that support it. For a scripture to support the doctrine that Jesus is the son of God, you need scripture saying that. For a scripture to support trinity, you need a scripture saying that. But none say that, so you're forced to resort to adding it to the word of God by saying here'' trinity is biblical" . That's just another way of putting the word trinity in the bible.

1000 years is, and 1000 years is just another way of saying millinium. there is no word in the bible that equates to trinity. the closest is the spurious john 5.7 where Trinitarians tried to put '3 are one' in the bible. But even if that is scripture trinity is just one of several possible INTERPRETATIONS. 'these three are one', logically would mean that the father son and holy spirit are one in purpose. the illogical INTERPRETATION would be that 3 beings are one being.

trinity is another way of saying three in one.

 

[2ducklow]

trinity is another way of saying three in one.

three in one isn't in the bible either. Are you adding 3 in 1 to the bible as well?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

three in one isn't in the bible either. Are you adding 3 in 1 to the bible as well?

not adding anything to the bible , the bible says it is so.

or are you adding extra gods?

 

[2ducklow]

tango mike papa signing off.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I think apart from the fact I believe as do many others, not that I am saying the majority are always correct or otherwise, that scripture both in essence and inference supports the idea of God being made up of God being the father, son and Holy Spirit in one personage.
If they are not who or what is the Holy spirit?
who or what is Jesus?

 

[2ducklow]

I think apart from the fact I believe as do many others, not that I am saying the majority are always correct or otherwise, that scripture both in essence and inference supports the idea of God being made up of God being the father, son and Holy Spirit in one personage.
If they are not who or what is the Holy spirit?
who or what is Jesus?

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the one and only true God. God the Father.

Jesus is the son of God and Mary. Jesus is the last adam, the new man. Jesus is the new creation of God that replaces the old creation (first adam).

(KJV) 1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

(KJV) Revelation 3:14

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

King James Bible Jer. 31.22
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.


Mary compassed or went around a man to conceive because God created a new thing in her so that she could conceive without a man.

(Rotherham) 2 Corinthians 5:17 On the contrary, now, no longer, are we gaining it. So that, if any one is in Christ, there is a new creation! the old things, have passed away,--Lo! they have become new!

(Rotherham) Genesis 3:15 And, enmity, will I put between thee, and the woman, and between thy seed, and her seed,--He, shall crush thy head, but, thou, shalt crush his heel.

the woman is Mary, and her seed is the new thing God created in her. Thus the new thing God created in Mary is her seed, she's the only woman who ever had seed. God used that seed of Mary's to begat Jesus with.


Christians are new creations because they are in the new creation which is Christ.
(Rotherham) Romans 8:29 For, whom he fore-approved, he also fore-appointed to be conformed unto the image of his Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren,--

(Rotherham) Colossians 1:15 Who, is an image of the unseen God, Firstborn of all creation,--

col 1.15 is crystal clear, Jesus, the image of the unseen God, is the firstborn of all (new) creation. Brethern are new creations, not old creations. And he is the firstborn of them (Us).

God begat Jesus, and Mary conceived Jesus. Jesus came from new human male seed that God used to begat Jesus with. And Mary provided the Egg that she conceived Jesus with. Thus Jesus is the new creation of God. Jesus is the last adam because the first Adam failed. The last Adam succeeded.

Jesus is the beginning of the new creation of God. The new creation of God is the only creation that will last. the old creation,this world and stuff, is destined to be destroyed. Only the new creation will remain.

It's really crystal clear from the scriptures. Quite simple really.