Really? Trinity?

[thepromiseofgrace]

but the bible says we are saved by the blood of God and it says we are saved by the blood of Jesus, if they are two separate being are we saved by both, one as it is confusing.

Jesus says i am the alpha and omega, we know God is the alpha and omega, are they both the beginning and the end or just one of them and the other is lying and does scripture support that.

the Holy spirit, is it a person a force, is it another God ?

 

[2ducklow]

but the bible says we are saved by the blood of God and it says we are saved by the blood of Jesus, if they are two separate being are we saved by both, one as it is confusing.

acts 20.28 is corrupted scripture. the ancient greek manuscripts are evenly divided between the readings "god' and "lord'. 2. the exact reading in Greek is 'the blood of his own'. Which most bibles translate as 'his own blood.' "his own" is a term of endearment such as in john 1.11'

King James Bible john 1.11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(Rotherham) Acts 20:28 Be taking heed unto yourselves, and unto all the little flock in which the Holy Spirit hath set, you, as overseers,--to be shepherding the assembly of God which he hath acquired through means of the blood of his own. Jesus is being refered to here as his own. Meaning God's own son.


So one should examine the evidence for ones self and decide for one's own self which is correct, the lord or the God, and 'his own blood" or 'the blood of his own".

I believe Rotherham got it right based on my investigation.
it should also be noted that this is the only verse where God is said to have blood. since it's got several problems in that it's corrupted and has 2 possible translations that fact weights against it being translated as 'his own blood'.

I also consider the ASV translation possible, if 'his own blood' is a valid translation. And I'm no sure it is and I'm not sure it isn't.

(ASV) Acts 20:28

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood

we were purchased from satan by God through the blood of Jesus. God is a spirit , and spirits do not have blood.

so you have to decide does it say Lord or God, and which translation is correct, the literal 'the blood of his own' or the nonliteral 'his own blood'

Jesus says i am the alpha and omega, we know God is the alpha and omega, are they both the beginning and the end or just one of them and the other is lying and does scripture support that.

God the Father and Jesus are one, that's why they are both the alpha and the omega.

we Christians are to be one the same way they are one.

(Rotherham) John 17:22 And, I, the glory which thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one, even as, we, are, one.--

the Holy spirit, is it a person a force, is it another God ?

No verse says that the Holy Spirit is a person or force. So I don't believe they are. I believe the holy Spirit is the spirit of the one and only true God, God the Father. The bible sometimes says that God has a spirit, at other times it says he is a spirit. sometimes god personifies his spirit at other times he does not.

I've gotten to know you a little bit through our discourses and as a result I know that nothing I say will change your mind.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

acts 20.28 is corrupted scripture. the ancient greek manuscripts are evenly divided between the readings "god' and "lord'. 2. the exact reading in Greek is 'the blood of his own'. Which most bibles translate as 'his own blood.' "his own" is a term of endearment such as in john 1.11'

King James Bible john 1.11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(Rotherham) Acts 20:28 Be taking heed unto yourselves, and unto all the little flock in which the Holy Spirit hath set, you, as overseers,--to be shepherding the assembly of God which he hath acquired through means of the blood of his own. Jesus is being refered to here as his own. Meaning God's own son.


So one should examine the evidence for ones self and decide for one's own self which is correct, the lord or the God, and 'his own blood" or 'the blood of his own".

I believe Rotherham got it right based on my investigation.
it should also be noted that this is the only verse where God is said to have blood. since it's got several problems in that it's corrupted and has 2 possible translations that fact weights against it being translated as 'his own blood'.

I also consider the ASV translation possible, if 'his own blood' is a valid translation. And I'm no sure it is and I'm not sure it isn't.

(ASV) Acts 20:28

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood

we were purchased from satan by God through the blood of Jesus. God is a spirit , and spirits do not have blood.

so you have to decide does it say Lord or God, and which translation is correct, the literal 'the blood of his own' or the nonliteral 'his own blood'
God the Father and Jesus are one, that's why they are both the alpha and the omega.

we Christians are to be one the same way they are one.

(Rotherham) John 17:22 And, I, the glory which thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one, even as, we, are, one.--No verse says that the Holy Spirit is a person or force. So I don't believe they are. I believe the holy Spirit is the spirit of the one and only true God, God the Father. The bible sometimes says that God has a spirit, at other times it says he is a spirit. sometimes god personifies his spirit at other times he does not.

I've gotten to know you a little bit through our discourses and as a result I know that nothing I say will change your mind.

and are all the other scriptures that show God and Jesus and the holy spirit are one in the same corrupted?

and the Jewish high priest and the others crucified Jesus on the understanding of corrupt scriptures?

I have seen no evidence so far that you have an open mind on this topic, perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[Imagican]

but the bible says we are saved by the blood of God and it says we are saved by the blood of Jesus, if they are two separate being are we saved by both, one as it is confusing.

Jesus says i am the alpha and omega, we know God is the alpha and omega, are they both the beginning and the end or just one of them and the other is lying and does scripture support that.

the Holy spirit, is it a person a force, is it another God ?

Where many that have accepted 'trinity' find this confusing. I, as one who denies 'trinity' have found NOTHING confusing about the Father AND Son both claiming to be 'alpha and omega'.

God, the Father, IS the 'alpha and omega' of ALL things. The Son, BEING the ONE and ONLY begotten of the Father, IS the 'alpha and omega' in this respect as well. For Christ IS the beginning of ALL that pertains to US: mankind.

If God is ETERNAL, both backwards and forward in TIME or the EVENTS of existence, why is it SO difficult for men to understand that God existed LONG before, (eternity), before man was 'created'. Before this EARTH was created.

ALL indications from the BIBLE are that the Son was CREATED by The Father. Only when one buys into 'trinity' do the scriptures that STATE the Son WAS INDEED CREATED become impossible to accept.

This was the BIGGEST schism in the beginning of the Church as it was formed in the Roman Empire. There were many that simply accepted scripture as offered and recognized clearly that Christ was "CREATED" by God, His Father. The words Father and Son themselves are INDICATIVE of ONE emanating FROM the other. The Father is FIRST and the Son comes FROM the Father.

Then there were those that wanted to MAKE Jesus Christ a "GOD" so that they could worship Him AS GOD. These were stuck with a dilemma, if they were to worship Christ AS God, they would have to form a belief system that MADE Christ God.

This stated with the formation of the doctrine that Jesus is OF the EXACT same essence as GOD. And this MANDATED that any idea that Christ was 'created' would have to be eliminated. So the decision was made that from the time of the decision forward, it would be the COMMON belief that Christ is ETERNAL 'backwards in time and events' as well as forward, (the future).

So regardless of what the Bible offered, the decision was made BY MEN that Christ was of the EXACT same essence of the Father. No beginning, no end. Co-everything as concerns the Father. EQUAL in all respects to EXISTENCE.

Even though the very words of Christ DESTROY any possibility of the aspects of 'trinity', those that had the MOST influence over a PAGAN Emperor got their way and the Council at Nicea ended up creating the BASIS for the later doctrine of 'trinity'.

God IS SPIRIT. So you IDEA that God's blood was the catalyst of forgiveness is utterly inane. God finds the FLESH detestable, UNCLEAN, and as far as we know, God CANNOT take on HUMAN form. He is SPIRIT. As far as we KNOW, the flesh cannot HOLD the Spirit that IS God. If no man has ever SEEN God, then obviously no man has ever BEEN God. God CANNOT physically BLEED. So there is NO 'blood' that God is able to shed of His OWN.

I often find it AMAZING that so many seem oblivious to how often words in the Bible are used SYMBOLICALLY. How often many try to take words offered symbolically as LITERAL. It does NOTHING but take away from true understanding. But that's what happens when men try to read the Bible OUTSIDE of inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They try to read it as a BOOK without realizing that things pertaining to Spirit are ONLY able to be revealed THROUGH the Spirit.

Both God and Christ are RESPONSIBLE for our Salvation. God SENT His Son and His Son went WILLINGLY. God TOLD His Son what He wanted to be delivered, (His Word), and Christ WILLINGLY delivered it even to the point of being put to death for it.

But GOD did NOT die on the cross. NOT according to the BIBLE. Only through the creation and perpetuation of 'trinity' does the concept exist. God's SON died on the cross. And He died upon the cross ALONE. In order to 'take on the sins of this world', it was MANDATORY that God ABANDON His Son and ALLOW Him to die ALONE, as a MAN. Christ's own words PLAINLY PROVE this. "My God, my God, why hath thou forsaken me?" If you are confused, just look up the definition of 'forsaken' and you will SEE, if you are able, that at the moment of Christ's death, He was ALONE. Without the Father: God. God had withdrawn His Spirit from His Son SO that His Son COULD die FOR the sins of this world. In order to DIE FOR them, He had to TAKE ON the sins of this world. And in order for the Son to take on the 'sins of this world', The Father was FORCED to abandon Him IN SIN.

But, of course, 'trinity' is utterly opposed to this concept of TRUTH. For in order to accept the TRUTH, one is forced to RECOGNIZE that The Son of God was NOT GOD Himself.

And that is the most DANGEROUS aspect of 'trinity'. It's CORE foundation makes it force the followers to ABANDON the truth as offered in God's Word and twist it in myriad manner in order for 'trinity' to FIT IN to what is offered in the Bible. And that is WHY those that 'created trinity' DENIED the 'Book' to the congregation as long as they were able. To KEEP the TRUTH hidden until their 'doctrine of trinity' was SO ingrained in the minds of those that they were able to implant it so that they even when they WERE allowed access to the Word, since they had ALREADY been FORCED to accept it, they would ONLY be able to SEE 'trinity' without the ability to SEE that there is a DIFFERENT truth contained within God's Word WITHOUT 'trinity' blinding those that accept it.

A few of these truths:

Christ was CREATED by God, His FATHER.
Therefore Christ has NOT 'always existed throughout eternity'.
The Father, GOD, is GREATER than the Son. ALL power and authority that the Son possesses was GIVEN Him by His Father.
Christ had the SAME 'free will' when living among us as WE DO. He COULD have chosen to bow to Satan. Instead, He OVERCAME the temptation. For if He had NO choice, there would have been NO temptation. Satan did not TEMPT God in the flesh. For God doesn't TAKE ON 'flesh'.
Mary is NOT the 'Mother of God'. NO 'creation' of God IS the MOTHER OF GOD. God has NO beginning therefore we have NO IDEA what the manner of His creation was/IS. Mary is NOT the 'Queen of Heaven'. Heaven HAS NO QUEEN. Only a KING. The Word is NOT a proper NOUN. It was CAPITALIZED by MEN who BELIEVED that Christ is GOD. God's Word is the SAME as OUR word, except in POWER. God's Word is that which represents Himself. What He SAYS IS HIS WORD. And Christ OPENLY stated that HE IS NOT 'The Word'. For He states that the Word of God is NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN Him by His Father to DELIVER to US. Jesus is also named the LIGHT. But He was merely a REPRESENTATIVE of God's Word. He is not, nor has He EVERY been 'the Word' other than as a REPRESENTATIVE of God's Word. His words were NOT His own and He openly STATED it.

So you see, what you have offered is "PURE TRINITARIAN". Jesus Christ IS the 'alpha and omega'. He is the FIRST and LAST begotten Son of God. The ONLY begotten Son of God. Using such a title in NO way makes Jesus GOD. If you believe that, then YOU DENY the very words of Christ Himself. For Christ IDENTIFIED Himself AS the Son of God, NOT God Himself. You can ONLY find evidence of 'trinity' in the Bible if that is what you are LOOKING for. That means that someone MUST TEACH you 'trinity' OUTSIDE of the BIBLE FIRST. For there IS NO "trinity" IN the Bible.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Albion]

Where many that have accepted 'trinity' find this confusing. I, as one who denies 'trinity' have found NOTHING confusing about the Father AND Son both claiming to be 'alpha and omega'.

If "many" Trinitarians actually did find that confusing, you'd think somebody would come upon one of them occasionally.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

so you are happy with two beginnings and two ends, you are happy that we are saved by the blood of God and the blood of Jesus, you are happy God, who says he is a jealous God tells us the way to him is through another being, why did our Jealous God decide to create everything through another being, why did he tell the angels to worship another being, when worship is for God alone and the war in the heavens began over another wanting to be worshiped.
So much scripture supports God, Jesus and the Holy spirit being a single personage, I can't imagine how it could work another way.

 

[Albion]

So much scripture supports God, Jesus and the Holy spirit being a single personage, I can't imagine how it could work another way.

A single being.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

A single being.

yes, i was trying to word it in such a way as to not show them as separate and failed.

a single being is perfect.

 

[2ducklow]

and are all the other scriptures that show God and Jesus and the holy spirit are one in the same corrupted?

all the scriptures used to support the trinity doctrine are either interpolations of scripture, spurious scriptures, bad translations, failure to understand the meaning of words (such as not understanding what logos means), translated using made up grammar to try and squeeze Jesus is God out of a verse, and possibly other things I can't recall off hand.

and the Jewish high priest and the others crucified Jesus on the understanding of corrupt scriptures?

the jewish high priests didn't have the NT.

I have seen no evidence so far that you have an open mind on this topic, perhaps I am mistaken.

I don't have an open mind to fabricated information. Trinity is so fabricated I cannot have an open mind to it, besides the fact it makes zero sense. I don't have an open mind to illogic. I don't have an open mind to the concept that 3 individuals are one individual.

 

[Albion]

besides the fact it makes zero sense. I don't have an open mind to illogic.

It doesn't make sense to you--just as you said--and we can't get through to you, so why don't we just leave it at that?

You and your colleagues will give up telling us who DO understand it and have pointed to Biblical evidence in support of it that we are confused or don't know what we believe. We OTOH will stop attempting to show you why Scripture teaches the Triune nature of God. At least, that's my proposal.

 

[2ducklow]

It doesn't make sense to you--just as you said--and we can't get through to you, so why don't we just leave it at that?

You and your colleagues will give up telling us who DO understand it and have pointed to Biblical evidence in support of it that we are confused or don't know what we believe. We OTOH will stop attempting to show you why Scripture teaches the Triune nature of God. At least, that's my proposal.

Ok I give you permission to not speak to me anymore.

 

[Albion]

Ok I give you permission to not speak to me anymore.

Wow. You couldn't even get THAT message of mine correct. What chance would an explanation of the nature of God have, therefore?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

all the scriptures used to support the trinity doctrine are either interpolations of scripture, spurious scriptures, bad translations, failure to understand the meaning of words (such as not understanding what logos means), translated using made up grammar to try and squeeze Jesus is God out of a verse, and possibly other things I can't recall off hand.
the jewish high priests didn't have the NT.
I don't have an open mind to fabricated information. Trinity is so fabricated I cannot have an open mind to it, besides the fact it makes zero sense. I don't have an open mind to illogic. I don't have an open mind to the concept that 3 individuals are one individual.

the trinity makes more sense and aligns better with scripture than any alternative.
you just don't have an open mind, yet you expect others to have an open mind.

i think I will agree to disagree.

 

[Ripheus27]

I don't have an open mind to the concept that 3 individuals are one individual.

We teach that three individual relationships share one individual nature, or that 3x = 1y, not that 3x = 1x. This is not illogical, hence an interpretation of the Bible based on this picture is not illogical, and no worse off as such than your interpretation. But then I guess we are just stupid despisers of reason who never graduated elementary school...

 

[Albion]

3x = 1y, not that 3x = 1x.

That's a good point to make and a good way to make it.

 

[Ripheus27]

The accusation that we Trinitarians are bad at arithmetic is not new.

Theirs [i.e., the unitarians'] (they say) is an accountable and a reasonable Faith; but that of the Trinitarians is absurd, and contrary both to Reason and to It-self, and therefore not only false, but impossible. For you, say they teach, That there are Three Almighty, most Good and most Wise Persons, and yet but One God; as if every Almighty most Wise and Good Person were not a God, a most perfect God; and consequently Three such Persons, Three Gods. You add yet more absurdly, That there are three Persons who are severally and each of them true God, and yet there is but one true God. This is an Errour in counting or numbring; which, when stood in, is of all others the most brutal and inexcusable: and not to discern it, is not to be a Man. But we would not, say they, trouble our selves at the Non-sense of this Doctrine, if it did not impose false Gods on us; by advancing Two to be Gods, who are not so: and rob also the One true God of the Honour due to him, and of which he is jealous. (Nye 1691b, 9, original emphases) [SEP, "Trinity," supplement on unitarianism, sec. 2.3, quoting Stephen Nye]​

 

[Imagican]

and are all the other scriptures that show God and Jesus and the holy spirit are one in the same corrupted?

and the Jewish high priest and the others crucified Jesus on the understanding of corrupt scriptures?

I have seen no evidence so far that you have an open mind on this topic, perhaps I am mistaken.

It is YOU that have somehow managed to CLOSE your mind.

NONE of the scriptures to which you refer are CORRUPTED. You have simply been LED to believe that they mean something that they DON'T.

The RCC decided to take it upon THEMSELVES to determine the NATURE of Christ. Not according to the BIBLE, but according to their OWN desired BELIEFS.

God, the Holy Spirit and His Son ARE ONE. Just NOT in the manner that you are trying to INSIST. And the scriptures PLAINLY point out the error of such MISunderstanding.

The book of John is the PERFECT place to SEEK the TRUTH. For it is THE book that 'trinitarians' attempt to USE to produce PROOF of 'trinity'. Yet it does NOTHING of the sort.

Let us SEE what it MEANS when we are offered that God and His Son are ONE. You say it means they are THE SAME. I offer that you couldn't be MORE WRONG. And it is ONLY through 'trinity' that such a misconception exists.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


Now let us EXAMINE what this TRULY means:


John 10:




36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


John 17:




3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


Ah, Christ's prayer is that WE can be ONE with both Father and Son as both Father and Son are ONE with EACH OTHER. Do you 'get it now'? The ONENESS that 'trinity' insists means 'the same', means NOTHING of the SORT. What it REALLY means is ONE IN LOVE. That Christ is ONE with the Father through their MUTUAL sharing of LOVE. And we TOO can be ONE with both Father and Son IF we learn to practice and SHARE our LOVE with Them.


We are NOT going to BE Christ. Nor are WE going to BE God. But the scripture PLAINLY states that we are to become ONE with both Father and Son.



And this DESTROYS any semblance of the teaching that 'trinity' offers in that the use of the term ONE means the SAME. God and His Son being ONE does NOT make them 'the same'. God is the Father and Jesus Christ is the SON of God. They are NOT the same. They are NOT 'two persons' in ONE God. God IS God and the Son IS The Son. They are ONE in the LOVE that they share. And we TOO can become ONE this SAME 'sharing'.


And HOW do we 'share our love' with both Father and SON? We DO what one who loves DOES. We follow the INSTRUCTIONS we have been given concerning LOVE. And if we DO this, we TRULY DO become ONE with both Father and Son. The scriptures above PLAINLY prove MY POINT. Christ praying that the Father allow US to become ONE with Them as They are ONE with each other. Not the SAME, but all individual members of the SAME FAMILY. The Father as the HEAD of Christ and Christ as the HEAD of man and man as the HEAD of woman. This is the ORDER that God instituted and it is THE order that His children FOLLOW in order to HONOR His WILL.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[Imagican]

The accusation that we Trinitarians are bad at arithmetic is not new.

Theirs [i.e., the unitarians'] (they say) is an accountable and a reasonable Faith; but that of the Trinitarians is absurd, and contrary both to Reason and to It-self, and therefore not only false, but impossible. For you, say they teach, That there are Three Almighty, most Good and most Wise Persons, and yet but One God; as if every Almighty most Wise and Good Person were not a God, a most perfect God; and consequently Three such Persons, Three Gods. You add yet more absurdly, That there are three Persons who are severally and each of them true God, and yet there is but one true God. This is an Errour in counting or numbring; which, when stood in, is of all others the most brutal and inexcusable: and not to discern it, is not to be a Man. But we would not, say they, trouble our selves at the Non-sense of this Doctrine, if it did not impose false Gods on us; by advancing Two to be Gods, who are not so: and rob also the One true God of the Honour due to him, and of which he is jealous. (Nye 1691b, 9, original emphases) [SEP, "Trinity," supplement on unitarianism, sec. 2.3, quoting Stephen Nye]​

I offer that you have plainly shown exactly where your understanding COMES from. Not the Bible, but YOUR OWN understanding. The exact SAME understanding that LED to the formation and perpetuation of 'trinity'.

Those that created 'trinity' did NOT create 'trinity' according to the Bible, they created it as nothing more than an ADDITION to their previous RELIGIOUS beliefs. "Multi part gods' were MORE than familiar to those that 'created trinity'. Their religions were RIFE with 'muti part gods'. And the TRUTH is, the Romans didn't really even have a SPECIFIC 'religion' of their OWN until they CREATED their OWN form of 'Christianity'. They were a diverse culture with a diverse population formed from those from ALL over their Empire. Their religions were as diverse as the people that populated ROME. The Emperor being TREATED as 'a god' was about the ONLY thing universal in their Empire so far as 'religion' was concerned.

But if you TRULY believe what you offer so far as your 'mathematical conclusion', SHOW us the EVIDENCE. Show us where in the Bible, or ANY WHERE ELSE, God offered inspiration to use ANY mathematical formula to illustrate the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit. ALL that the Bible offers is that they are ONE. But the Bible also offers that WE TOO can become ONE with both Father and Son. A man and woman, when they wed, become ONE. But not a single individual is LOST when two become ONE. It is STILL TWO that are ONE because of certain ASPECTS of their relationship. They are NOT nor do they EVER become 'the same' The Father: God, will ALWAYS be the HEAD of Christ. Christ will ALWAYS be the HEAD of man. And man will ALWAYS be the HEAD of woman. This is the EXACT nature that God 'created' and it doesn't really matter whether men BELIEVE it or not, it cannot be altered in TRUTH.

And just LOOK how quickly other 'trinitarians' are to AGREE with ANY semblance of truth that defends 'trinity'. Even that which couldn't POSSIBLY BE the truth, if it SOUNDS good, then it is accepted just as easily and quickly as 'trinity' itself. You know, "it's like water. Water is liquid, solid and vapor. It's JUST like 'trinity'. Three different FORMS of the SAME God who is ONE.

Voodoo. The Babylonians worshiped similar "MULTI PART GODS". The Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans. Heck, just about EVERY group of people that have ever existed on EARTH worshiped "MULTI PART GODS". And that is WHY God revealed HIMSELF as being ONE. No OTHER Gods BESIDE Him. And that is WHY we have been warned NOT to be like 'the rest of this world'. For the REST of this world worship that which is SENSUAL and appeals to the FLESH. Gods of their OWN design. False IDOLS.

And just LOOK at the practices of those that 'created trinity'. Idol worshipers. Believers in a 'multi part god'. Look at all their pagan inspired RITUAL. And if you REALLY look at their 'religion', it is little different than the same model used in the ROMAN Empire. The EMPEROR being a direct representative of GOD himself, in the flesh. The pope being labeled the VICOR of Christ: Christ's REPRESENTATIVE on Earth IN THE FLESH. Men bowing and kissing the ring of the EMPEROR and men bowing and kissing the ring of the Pope. Paying tribute to Caesar and paying tribute to the POPE. Living in a PALACE. Living off the BACKS of 'the people'. Destroying people that refuse to accept domination. Stealing in the name of the EMPIRE, (Church). The similarities are absolutely eerie when you think about it. Putting people to death for speaking out against the Emperor or Empire. Torturing and murdering those that spoke out against the Church.

Can one TRULY torture and murder their neighbors IN THE NAME of CHRIST? Surely they can USE the name of Christ. But would 'Christ', through the Holy Spirit, TRULY inspire men to TORTURE and MURDER those that refuse to accept what they offers concerning Christ or God?

So what are the ODDS of God revealing the TRUTH to those that would treat their fellow man in any such manner? And if they ever WERE 'gifted with the truth', the evidence would be an utter CHANGE in what they BELIEVE. That 'change' has NEVER taken place.

But those that choose to follow the idea of 'trinity' are placing their FAITH in those that 'created it'. God has NEVER offered 'trinity' through His prophets, own Son or apostles.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Ripheus27]

I'm not much tempted to debate someone who capitalizes all the letters in every other or so word he writes. IRL, such a person would be periodically shouting at me or speaking with an overly-raised voice, which would make me feel defensive, and I don't think I'd say things entirely nicely to such a person I had to defend myself against.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Voodoo. The Babylonians worshiped similar "multi part gods". The egyptians, persians, greeks, romans. Heck, just about every group of people that have ever existed on earth worshiped "multi part gods". And that is why god revealed himself as being one. No other gods beside him. And that is why we have been warned not to be like 'the rest of this world'. For the rest of this world worship that which is sensual and appeals to the flesh. Gods of their own design. False idols.

And just look at the practices of those that 'created trinity'. Idol worshipers. Believers in a 'multi part god'. Look at all their pagan inspired ritual. And if you really look at their 'religion', it is little different than the same model used in the roman empire. The emperor being a direct representative of god himself, in the flesh. The pope being labeled the vicor of christ: christ's representative on earth in the flesh. Men bowing and kissing the ring of the emperor and men bowing and kissing the ring of the pope. Paying tribute to caesar and paying tribute to the pope. Living in a palace. Living off the backs of 'the people'. Destroying people that refuse to accept domination. Stealing in the name of the empire, (church). The similarities are absolutely eerie when you think about it. Putting people to death for speaking out against the emperor or empire. Torturing and murdering those that spoke out against the church. . . .

Blessings,

MEC

All nonsense with no, zero, none credible, verifiable historical evidence.