really not praying to Mary???

[mike1reynolds]

It says over and over in the Bible that God is spirit. What is the Holy Spirit, chopped liver?

Actually, ironically, I had an agonizingly long debate with GeneZ where he kept insisting that God is ONLY spirit and that God's soul is exclusively confined to Jesus. So ironically I find myself getting whomped now from 180 degrees in the opposite direction with a diametrically opposed view.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Quite the Scottish contingent here! My name is Michael Francis Leslie McClure Reynolds. Scottish names for me were about the only thing the two side of the family could agree on...

 

[mike1reynolds]

Although McClure is actually Scotch Irish, I think.

 

[Iollain]

Saying those passed on can hear us because God is Spirit is not a good comparison, your comparing God with creation. The Holy Spirit is God, but what does that have to do with saints hearing us like God?

 

[Iollain]

Quite the Scottish contingent here! My name is Michael Francis Leslie McClure Reynolds. Scottish names for me were about the only thing the two side of the family could agree on...

That's a long name you've got. Nice though

 

[mike1reynolds]

Saying those passed on can hear us because God is Spirit is not a good comparison, your comparing God with creation. The Holy Spirit is God, but what does that have to do with saints hearing us like God?

Nothing at all. My point was about spirits and you segued to the subject of God and I addressed that. Doesn't mean it is relevant to what I said originally.

 

[Davidnic]

Saying those passed on can hear us because God is Spirit is not a good comparison, your comparing God with creation. The Holy Spirit is God, but what does that have to do with saints hearing us like God?

They hear us through the Holy Spirit and the power of God. They, as all of us, have what God gives us.

 

[Iollain]

Well that's a nice idea but it's not Scriptural.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Neither is your assertion, Iollian.

 

[Oblio]

As a relevant aside, I noticed on the news this AM, they reported the thousands of survivors of 9/11 holding near to them and cherishing pictures of their reposed loved ones who perished. While not specifically mentioned, I am sure that there were other personal items (i.e. relics) that were used in order to be close to those who had reposed.

 

[mike1reynolds]

That's a long name you've got. Nice though

Thanks! It is kind of like a Spanish aristocratic name, come Scottish!

 

[David_The_Disciple]

Ok. I do not fully understand the techings of The CC. ANd I found that some go to CC but are more or less Baptists like my anunt but that is beside the fact. So here is my ?.

Say your grand mom passed away, does then have the power to pray to God on my behalf? If so can someoine plz post something that says this in the bible then i will start praying to the dead.

And Why pray to Mary other then you where thought as a kid or by CC to do so, once agin we should look in the bible for what to do and if the church is teaching something that is not in the bible then why do it? If God want us to do it then it surely would be in the bible.

I hope this post does not sound like a flame or rant I have a bad habbit of makeing my talks on a topic of somehting i do not fully understand and something that i do not see eye to eye on sound like a rant / flame. I am just trying to pnt out a few things and ask about the topic. Esp where what is in the bible about this topic and if its not found in the bible then why do ppl do this and why should we and if the dead who are now with our Lord can be prayed to and should be prayed to and why? and if they have the power to win fav. to Lord on our behalf .

 

[mike1reynolds]

Why would your grandmother no longer be able to pray just because she went to Heaven? As long as you are certain that is where she is there should be no problem with it as far as I can tell. I don't see why the Bible has to say everything that is common sense. Surely there are somethings that are just obvious and don't need to be in the Bible to be acknowledged as true.

Note that I have never asked anyone to pray for me, dead or alive. I do not engage in these practices, but I don't see anything wrong with them either. That it is all ok is just common sense as far as I can see.

 

[Debi1967]

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
Mat 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And the disciples hearing fell upon their face, and were very much afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them: Arise, and fear not.
Mat 17:8 And they lifting up their eyes, saw no one, but only Jesus.

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Luk 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Luk 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Mat 22:32

I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Luk 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Luk 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

Anyone in Heaven can speak to God directly....correct?

There is no longer a barrier.

If you talk to your gram, and we KNOW all in Heaven rejoice over one sinner returning...then we know that THEY all KNOW what is going on on earth.

And if you do not believe in THIS scripture, then what can be said. Its either accepted in faith, or it isnt.

Thanks RR.

BTW, the Bible is not a notebook of exact detailed doctrines. But doctrines lived and spoke of....and as always eluded too, SINCE for 40 years they already preached it, they figured the reader would know what they meant and did not go into detailed elaboration AGAIN.

 

[Davidnic]

So I guess to sum up. Scripture says the dead shall be as angels. Scripture says that angels rejoice and pray. Scripture says that we are all, living and dead united in Christ.

To me this points to the fact that the dead rejoice and pray and are in the presence of God. If they are doing that they still love us because being closer to the seat of all love would only increase their love and desire for all to be with them. So they would pray for us as well. Since it is God's desire to bring all to the love of Him in Christ, I would think that He loves these prayers, as they serve only to glorify Him and bring us closer to Him.

And we ask for their prayers and help, just as we would the living since they are alive in Christ.

 

[David_The_Disciple]

I gusse i did not make myslef very clear on what i was trying to ask here.

If there is anyhitng in the bible that says we should pray to someone esle thrn they go to God for us. Insted of going thou Christ. For some odd reson i get the feeling that ppl do this or if that is what i am asking if RC pray to Mary then she goes to God with out going thou Christ to pray to God on the behalf of the person who prayed to her.

And thank you for posting vs in the bible.

 

[Davidnic]

I gusse i did not make myslef very clear on what i was trying to ask here.

If there is anyhitng in the bible that says we should pray to someone esle thrn they go to God for us. Insted of going thou Christ. For some odd reson i get the feeling that ppl do this or if that is what i am asking if RC pray to Mary then she goes to God with out going thou Christ to pray to God on the behalf of the person who prayed to her.

And thank you for posting vs in the bible.

Catholics should (and do) go to Christ all the time. Mary should never be a substitute for Christ. Just a good friend and mother who wants everyone to know her Son better.

Just like if I ask a friend to pray for me, it is not because I am not praying but because it brings all in Christ closer to share our love that way in supplication to God.

If someone goes to Mary and the saints but never to Christ, the church calls that disordered because Christ should be in our hearts first.

 

[Smileyill]

After reading and posting in this thread, it appears, to me, that we'll never agree because Protestants hold that the Bible is God. Jn 1:1, it is God and if it's not there, it isn't from God.

Catholics use the pope and tradition to supplement the Bible. Catholics hold that if the pope or tradition support something, apparent contradictions from the Bible are misinterpretations.

To me, Jn 1:1 is clear. The critical problem is knowing which books are God (or reflect what God wants us to know). For me, that's the only place Apostalic tradition plays a role. Once I know the correct books, I know God. (Presupposing, of course, that I'm a Christian with the HS indwelling & teaching me).

The starting point is studying the 66 books almost everybody accepts, which I have done. With a grasp of them, I should study the other books and compare. If I find glaring contradictions, I need to study the contradictions, and decide. Basically, this is so important that I'll take nobody's word for what is right. I'll listen to ideas and run them past the HS, that's one of his missions, to teach.

 

[Davidnic]

The starting point is studying the 66 books almost everybody accepts, which I have done. With a grasp of them, I should study the other books and compare. If I find glaring contradictions, I need to study the contradictions, and decide. Basically, this is so important that I'll take nobody's word for what is right. I'll listen to ideas and run them past the HS, that's one of his missions, to teach.

A good place to start, when you want. As far as the inspiration of other books, Wisdom 2:10-22 has an excellent prophecy of Christ:

Let us oppress the righteous poor man; let us not spare the widow nor regard the gray hairs of the aged. But let our might be our law of right, for what is weak proves itself to be useless.

"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.

He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.

We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.

Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls.

I find it touches my heart. It really has nothing to do with this overall thread, but I thought I'd share.