really not praying to Mary???

[Oblio]

How can Mary hear my prayer at the same time she's listening to the prayer of another 5,000 miles away? She'd have to be omnipresent.

Why ?

Unless those here who ask for her prayers are everywhere and she is constrained by physical laws (which would be silly as she is not in the physical realm), this is a non sequitar.

 

[OneChristianOne]

We know because of Apostolic tradition. And as far as the stuff after the apparitions I could point out bad things that happen after every Penn State game. Bad things happen alot.

But in some cases Mary actually says that if the world does not repent and turn to Christ there will be disasters. All she wants is for the world to be closer to her Son.

You know that God wishes for Mary to hear of prayers of people 5000 miles apart because of Apostolic Tradition. Where in Apostolic Tradition does it say this? The bad things happening after the football games....................that isn't what I was referring to. World wars and deaths aren't happening after every football game. When Mary says bad things will happen if people don't repent, it isn't anything Jesus hasn't already said. Jesus said the gate is narrow and few will enter.

 

[Iollain]

Then why are people in heaven, before a bodily resurrection referred to by the same word as angels?

I'd have to have verses to see what you mean.

 

[Davidnic]

Hi David..I sorta got that impression too, since when this was said..quote: I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if this question has already been asked. God is omnipresent........Mary isn't. How can Mary hear my prayer at the same time she's listening to the prayer of another 5,000 miles away? She'd have to be omnipresent.

You answered about God wishing it...pax...Kim

Ah..I'm very sorry for the mispeak then. I mean that she can hear the prayers because God wishes it. Someone once asked about Mary and the omnipresent thing, maybe my reply from there will be clearer:

No. To be omniscient is a quality only to God. Any knowledge that Mary and the saints have beyond the norm is totally at the will and grace of God.

The ability of Mary the saints to hear our prayers so they can pray with us and for us is a function the will of God to allow and provide for such things.

It is a common thought that for Mary to hear our prayers (the prayers of so many) that it implies the quality of being omniscient. However when God sends prophecy to a person that does not mean that they know all things and are omniscient. It only means that God wills them to know. God wills a gift so they can carry out His plan.

Part of the Church's view of omniscience is that God depends on Himself alone for knowledge. Mary can not claim that, nor does the Church attribute that to her.

Like all Marian devotion, to be true it must serve to glorify God and not detract from Him. God allowing Mary and the saints the ability to pray for us as family and friends serves to glorify His unending and infinite mercy and love. His desire to bring us to the fulfillment of Christ's prayer (John 17:22) that all may be one. That living or dead those who love the Lord are one body.

The same thing goes for Omnipresence. Mary is not.

again, very sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Davidnic]

When Mary says bad things will happen if people don't repent, it isn't anything Jesus hasn't already said. Jesus said the gate is narrow and few will enter.

And in the church approved marain apparitions that is one of the things that is required, that she says nothing that goes against Christ.

 

[Davidnic]

You know that God wishes for Mary to hear of prayers of people 5000 miles apart because of Apostolic Tradition. Where in Apostolic Tradition does it say this? .

Marian devotion and prayers to the saints are evidenced from the earliest days of Christianity. It is supported by the church fathers and the early councils. And their support does come from Scripture as well.

 

[Davidnic]

World wars and deaths aren't happening after every football game.

They don't happen after every marian apparition either. But I do see what you are saying. Alot of Catholics believe that God sends His mother to us at times like this as a comfort or a warning or help.

It needs to be said that a Catholic is not required to believe that the apparitions even happen. And they are not required to pray to Mary or the saints.

 

[OneChristianOne]

And in the church approved marain apparitions that is one of the things that is required, that she says nothing that goes against Christ.

Who and when did this praying to Mary start? What's the Apostolic Tradition here? I understand if the Apostles did it, then the RCC is following that tradition, but where can I find the Apostles praying to Mary? Obviously, she was still alive for some time, but after her death, when did those who succeeded the Apostles begin praying to Mary? And why?

 

[Smileyill]

Who and when did this praying to Mary start? What's the Apostolic Tradition here? I understand if the Apostles did it, then the RCC is following that tradition, but where can I find the Apostles praying to Mary? Obviously, she was still alive for some time, but after her death, when did those who succeeded the Apostles begin praying to Mary? And why?

I would like to know as well, though I have an idea.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Apostles always spoke with Mary.

They conferred with her obviously on His childhood or the beginnings.

Hence Luke writes about the Angel and the Holy family.

The catacombs are a start to understanding what the Apostles did...
HOW could the Apostles preach that Mary would help them in Heaven, since she was alive??

Context is important.
But just as they knew they could speak to Jesus, and knowing Mary assumed into Heaven bodily, then they could still speak to her.

Did Christ put a division between us and Mary?

Wasnt she the first believing Christian?
Wasnt she also His MOST faithful disciple?

 

[Smileyill]

It depends on how you define Christian, Jesus was back in heaven before the term was first used. She certainly wasn't the first to believe, many OT prophets believed. She might have been the first follower, if that's how you define the term. I'm unsure how it's relevant.

I also think the start to understanding what the apostles did, is in Acts.

On the cross, Jesus transferred her to his disciple.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Prophets were not yet Christian, because Christ came to make us Christian. B4 Christ, the faithful were either faithful men of God, or Jews.

But she believed first by her act of knowledge of the Christ, and accepting the will of God to believe.
She raised Jesus knowing Who He was.

She accepted without fail ...and without question. She had gr8 faith in God by doing so.

So since Christ came...we are NOW called Christians, that is...followers of Christ.

She was the first follower, for without her consent, Christ would not have been born at the prescribed time.

And lest we forget, she was Created to be the Mother of God.
God does not leave these circumstances unplanned.

 

[Debi1967]

she wants people to ask for the graces that SHE has........she wants everything that the Biblical God, imo, does not.....

I guess Iollian then you did not know that prayer to anyone else other than God alone is optional?

I guess you also did not know that Prayer has two meanings as well, one is Worship, the other is simple communication.

I also guess that you did not know that neither any of the Angels, nor the Saints in Heaven would be able to dispense God's Graces if God Himself had not first given them to them to dispense. So essentially, if not for God they would be nothing and have nothing. Who then is the Almighty? God of course.

But the same way God uses us here on earth as His vehicles, and does then through us dispense His Grace unto others, He also uses those in Heaven. Grace has been Given unto to you too as a Free Gift, and that is by the power if God. Why oh why Iollian can you not see that those in Heaven can have the same Graces and more because of them now being perfected?

 

[Davidnic]

The first church dedicated to Mary was dedicated by St. James the Greater in Spain in 40 or 41 A.D.

Historical records show that many churches have stood on the same site since. So if a church was dedicated in her name it follows that veneration was a part of the apostles mindset.

 

[Trento]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
the sight of the Son of God hanging from a cross is a stumbling block, a sign of offense. But to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God, the wisdom of God, the love of God.

simonthezealot vbmenu_register("postmenu_26957114", true); I AM saved and I understand that Christ being hung on the cross meant nothing unless he also arose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
And since His strength is made perfect in weakness, the crucifix is the still life caricature of the triumph of Holy love over selfish sin.

simonthezealot vbmenu_register("postmenu_26957114", true); His death and resurrection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
Far from being the low point of Christ’s life and something to be brushed aside or forgotten, the crucifixion is the pinnacle of the Glory of God in Christ Jesus.

simonthezealot vbmenu_register("postmenu_26957114", true); Rather, the Resurrection is!

When St. Paul says "Death is at work in us....." Where does that "Death" come from ?, if Christ's death is not perpetual.

...so we take JESUS and cut Him in two !
You put His Death over there ...far away in history and you put
His "resurrection "on your chest and wear it like a medal of Honor !

if you read on in Romans 6: 5

"If we have been united with Him through a likeness to his death, so shall we be through a like resurrection."

Every whimp wants to be united to his resurrection, but only a few courageous want to be united to his death because they fail to grasp the very essence of the Christian faith.

 

[Debi1967]

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Jesus was correcting the Sadducees, the Sadducees did not believe in angel, demon, resurrection or afterlife of any kind. I wonder why scripturecatholic does not mention that? Also note that He is comparing the not marrying with the angels, does not say people will be like angels in every aspect.

I am wondering if your accounting is right that he was correcting them, then why did he specifically say to them HAVE NOT READ THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY GOD?

Why then did he say that to them? This obviously means that they had LEARNED IT BUT REBUKED THE TEACHING!

Thus the reason why they were being corrected in their error, it was not that they did not know, it was that they chose to rebule the teaching they were taught!

Context of scripture Iollian then come back to me, because most of the scriptures you dismissed you did without really reading them, as they did prove my points. Everyone but you saw it!

 

[Debi1967]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
the sight of the Son of God hanging from a cross is a stumbling block, a sign of offense. But to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God, the wisdom of God, the love of God.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
And since His strength is made perfect in weakness, the crucifix is the still life caricature of the triumph of Holy love over selfish sin.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Trento
Far from being the low point of Christ’s life and something to be brushed aside or forgotten, the crucifixion is the pinnacle of the Glory of God in Christ Jesus.




When St. Paul says "Death is at work in us....." Where does that "Death" come from ?, if Christ's death is not perpetual.

...so we take JESUS and cut Him in two !
You put His Death over there ...far away in history and you put
His "resurrection "on your chest and wear it like a medal of Honor !

if you read on in Romans 6: 5

"If we have been united with Him through a likeness to his death, so shall we be through a like resurrection."

Every whimp wants to be united to his resurrection, but only a few courageous want to be united to his death because they fail to grasp the very essence of the Christian faith.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

(1Timothy 2:4-5-6) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who else can go to God for us? No one BUT CHRIST JESUS!

Correct, Mary's not a mediator or savior. Of course no one ever said that she was. This is a classic strawman argument.

 

[simonthezealot]

The first church dedicated to Mary was dedicated by St. James the Greater in Spain in 40 or 41 A.D.

Historical records show that many churches have stood on the same site since. So if a church was dedicated in her name it follows that veneration was a part of the apostles mindset.

Share with me how you ascertained this bit of information.

 

[simonthezealot]

Correct, Mary's not a mediator or savior. Of course no one ever said that she was. This is a classic strawman argument.

Your own cathecism claims she is a co-mediatrix