really not praying to Mary???

[bagshome]

I can respond with some authority, as I am a former catholic. I was born and raised a catholic and attended a catholic school for the first 8 years. For the past 14 years however, I have been a born-again Christian, with no denominational preference, who studies and lives according to God's word. Whoever said that catholics do not pray directly to Mary is wrong. Take the Hail Mary prayer: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

If that is not praying to Mary, I don't know what it is. The Bible, and Jesus Himself instruct us to pray to the Father......Period. Jesus never said, "pray to my earthly mother", and for that matter didn't even instruct us to pray to Him, He taught us to pray to our Father, in His name. I have found that responses to questions such as whether catholics pray to Mary, or patron saints, etc., is usually answered out of not knowing the biblical answer. Jesus likewise never taught us to pray to someone else, to pray for us. The whole catholic concept of praying to Mary, or one of the so-called patron saints is based on an expectation of having someone else talk to God on our behalf. Jesus taught us to go to a quiet place and speak dircectly to God. He wants to hear from us, not from someone acting as a mediator.

The process of determining sainthood, and patron saints is not biblical either. It is pretty egotistical for man to think they can establish who God will get as saints. God is not waiting for us to tell Him who is worthy of sainthood. Again, that practice is not biblically based. According to the Bible, all believers are saints, and Paul speaks of us that way. Anyone who dispels this is challenged to quote such from the bible.

Bagshome

 

[Peaceful Dove]

If I tell you I do not worship Mary, nor do I believe her to be God, would you believe me?

God Bless

Are you serious?
She has been told over and over by every Catholic and EO here. Please don't confuse this issue with facts.

 

[Iollain]

It does not matter what i think, it matters what God thinks.

 

[lionroar0]

The process of determining sainthood, and patron saints is not biblical either. It is pretty egotistical for man to think they can establish who God will get as saints. God is not waiting for us to tell Him who is worthy of sainthood. Again, that practice is not biblically based. According to the Bible, all believers are saints, and Paul speaks of us that way. Anyone who dispels this is challenged to quote such from the bible.

The whole process of canonization. Is for those that the Church knows have lived a heroic Christian life. There are many Saints in heaven that we do not know.

The Church does also aacknowledges that we are saints with a small "s" because we are christians but many of us will not life a heroic christian life.

You were not properly Catechized.

Anyone who dispels this is challenged to quote such from the bible.

If you can show where the Bible says that everything must be in the Bible then I will answer your question.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

It does not matter what i think, it matters what God thinks.

The ways of God are a mystery to us but yet you claim that you know what He thinks.

I find this odd.

Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

guess tonight i'll have to dig up the cd that i saved when i took hours and hours of looking up these in the Bible and refuting them

Can they also refute 2000 years of the same teachings??


"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).


"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Crown, 3 (A.D. 211).

"Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of bow much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,--whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory." Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).

"I am also of opinion that there were many persons of the same name with John the apostle, who by their love for him, and their admiration and emulation of him, and their desire to be loved by the Lord as he was loved, were induced to embrace also the same designation, just as we find many of the children of the faithful called by the names of Paul and Peter." Dionysius of Alexandria, Books of Promises, 5 (A.D. 257).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).

"Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel." John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration 18:4 (A.D. 374).

"He voluntarily undertook all the toil of the journey; he moderated the energy of the faithful on the spot; he persuaded opponents by his arguments; in the presence of priests and deacons, and of many others who fear the Lord, he took up the relics with all becoming reverence, and has aided the brethren in their preservation. These relics do you receive with a joy equivalent to the distress with which their custodians have parted with them and sent them to you. Let none dispute; let none doubt. Here you have that unconquered athlete. These bones, which shared in the conflict with the blessed soul, are known to the Lord. These bones He will crown, together with that soul, in the righteous day of His requital, as it is written, 'we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may give an account of the deeds he has done in the body.' One coffin held that honoured corpse. None other lay by his side. The burial was a noble one; the honours of a martyr were paid him. Christians who had welcomed him as a guest and then with their own hands laid him in the grave, have now disinterred him. They have wept as men bereaved of a father and a champion. But they have sent him to you, for they put your joy before their own consolation. Pious were the hands that gave; scrupulously careful were the hands that received. There has been no room for deceit; no room for guile. I bear witness to this. Let the untainted truth be accepted by you." Basil, To Ambrose bishop of Milan, Epistle 197 (A.D. 375).

"Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master...Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf...For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God's mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them..." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 377).

"Only may that power come upon us which strengthens weakness, through the prayers of him[i.e. St. Paul] who made his own strength perfect in bodily weakness." Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 1:1(A.D. 380).

"But God forbid that any in this fair assembly should appear there suffering such things! but by the prayers of the holy fathers, correcting all our offences, and having shown forth the abundant fruit of virtue, may we depart hence with much confidence." John Chrysostom, On Statues, Homily 6:19 (A.D. 387).
[Incorruptible Saint...BTW]
"As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints' burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).



Thank you Fathers...and thank you Augustine, for making the distinctions between what has always been taught, and what has always been argued against.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

It does not matter what i think, it matters what God thinks.

You are right!!! Have you convinced HIM yet?

 

[bagshome]

The whole process of canonization. Is for those that the Church knows have lived a heroic Christian life. There are many Saints in heaven that we do not know.

The Church does also aacknowledges that we are saints with a small "s" because we are christians but many of us will not life a heroic christian life.

You were not properly Catechized.



If you can show where the Bible says that everything must be in the Bible then I will answer your question.

Peace

We are not to deviate from God's word, which is the bible. If we create concepts not supported by the bible, then we are in serious danger of misaligning ourselves with God. Jesus teaches us clearly in the Bible. Man's concpets are not important, as all we need to know to get to heaven, to know love and serve God, and to live in this world is contained in the Bible. If we try to live our lives apart from God's word, or deviate from it, we are in terrible danger of losing our direction.

 

[wmc1982]

I don't see why anyone would pray to anyone other than strait to God

 

[HisKid1973]

But where do you even get the concept that man has to "make " Saints.. I don't see Paul or Peter saying anything about making Steven a Capital S saint..This was a manmade idea..I can't even see that the Holy Spirit would instuct someone to be elevated by men on earth. To esteem,honor and imatate their zeal yes but to deside "who" is a Capital S saint just don't make sense..just a thought..k

 

[lionroar0]

We are not to deviate from God's word, which is the bible. If we create concepts not supported by the bible, then we are in serious danger of misaligning ourselves with God. Jesus teaches us clearly in the Bible. Man's concpets are not important, as all we need to know to get to heaven, to know love and serve God, and to live in this world is contained in the Bible. If we try to live our lives apart from God's word, or deviate from it, we are in terrible danger of losing our direction.

Man's concpets are not important, as all we need to know to get to heaven, to know love and serve God, and to live in this world is contained in the Bible

Where does the Bible say this??

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

But where do you even get the concept that man has to "make " Saints.. I don't see Paul or Peter saying anything about making Steven a Capital S saint..This was a manmade idea..I can't even see that the Holy Spirit would instuct someone to be elevated by men on earth. To esteem,honor and imatate their zeal yes but to deside "who" is a Capital S saint just don't make sense..just a thought..k

We don't make Saints. God makes Saints. The process of canonozation is a way to say that God has made this person a Saint.

Peace

 

[bagshome]

Where does the Bible say this??

Peace

The bible doesn't say that. The Bible is God's indesputable word. Jesus taught us all we need to know to do three things 1) Know, love and serve God, 2) Live in this world, and 3) Get to heaven. The bible doesn't have to say that, in fact how could the bible say that that, as when it was compiled there was not one author. However, the source of all we need to know, from God's perspective, is the Bible. Any circumstance in life that you confront can be answered in the Bible.

 

[lionroar0]

The bible doesn't say that. The Bible is God's indesputable word. Jesus taught us all we need to know to do three things 1) Know, love and serve God, 2) Live in this world, and 3) Get to heaven. The bible doesn't have to say that, in fact how could the bible say that that, as when it was compiled there was not one author. However, the source of all we need to know, from God's perspective, is the Bible. Any circumstance in life that you confront can be answered in the Bible.

Where does the Bible say that everything that Jesus taught is in the Bible??

However, the source of all we need to know, from God's perspective, is the Bible.

Where does it say that all we need to know is in the Bible???

Any circumstance in life that you confront can be answered in the Bible.

I think it's a bit more fundamental then that. Since there are those that do not find their answers in the Bible.

I think that any circumstances can be confronted and answered by God, in anyway which He choses. Wich does include the Bible.

Peace

 

[bagshome]

We don't make Saints. Go makes Saints. The process of canonozation is a way to say that God has made this person a Saint.

Peace

The bible refers to all believers as saints, and does not specify a small s or a capitol s. Therefore, God considers all believers to be saints, and not merely those that a denomination has "canonized".

 

[HisKid1973]

Sorrr Lion, I can't get this quote thingy figured out..What is the canonization proces? I s it a group of men who "decide" who is a S saint or not? thanks..Kim

 

[bagshome]

Where does the Bible say that everything that Jesus taught is in the Bible??




Where does it say that all we need to know is in the Bible???



I think it's a bit more fundamental then that. Since there are those that do not find their answers in the Bible.

I think that any circumstances can be confronted and answered by God, in anyway which He choses. Wich does include the Bible.

Peace

The bible does not need to say "everything you need to know is contained in this bible". Which book would that be appropriate in? If you know the bible, you know that all we need to know is contained therein. It is God's infallible word, and if we needed to know more, there would be more. You are correct, all things can be answered by God, and those answers are found in the bible. You will find that when you pray for an answer from God, you will either be referred to a biblical passage, or His answer coincides with His word. At times we find it difficult to find the answers we are looking for from the bible. That is why Godly counsel is so very important. Anyone who helps you find a Godly answer, that is not supported by the bible, is not providing you with Godly counsel. A Godly friend who helps you find answers should be one who helps you through prayer and scripture. If the answer comes from any other source it is not trustworthy. Believers have the responsiblity to help one another live in accordance with God's word. Any time advice comes that is not biblical, we should quickly turn 180 degress and go back to His word.

 

[lionroar0]

The bible does not need to say "everything you need to know is contained in this bible". Which book would that be appropriate in? If you know the bible, you know that all we need to know is contained therein.

The assertion is that everything one needs to know is in the Bible but yet the admition is that not everything is in the Bible.

It is God's infallible word, and if we needed to know more, there would be more.

Infallable does not equal everything.

You are correct, all things can be answered by God, and those answers are found in the bible.

Not all of them.

You will find that when you pray for an answer from God, you will either be referred to a biblical passage, or His answer coincides with His word.

Yes God has answered mt through scripture. But also outside of it.

At times we find it difficult to find the answers we are looking for from the bible. That is why Godly counsel is so very important. Anyone who helps you find a Godly answer, that is not supported by the bible, is not providing you with Godly counsel.

Yet you have admitted that the Bible does not say that everything is in the Bible.

A Godly friend who helps you find answers should be one who helps you through prayer and scripture. If the answer comes from any other source it is not trustworthy.

I also trust Tradition. I have had God asnwer my prayers through Tradition.

Believers have the responsiblity to help one another live in accordance with God's word.

According to who?

Any time advice comes that is not biblical, we should quickly turn 180 degress and go back to His word.

And you how do you know that you are correct?

Peace

 

[Peaceful Dove]

But where do you even get the concept that man has to "make " Saints.. I don't see Paul or Peter saying anything about making Steven a Capital S saint..This was a manmade idea..I can't even see that the Holy Spirit would instuct someone to be elevated by men on earth. To esteem,honor and imatate their zeal yes but to deside "who" is a Capital S saint just don't make sense..just a thought..k

Hi Dear One,
The Church doesn't actually "make" anyone a Saint with a Capital S. These folks, by their extraordinary love of the Lord is a Saint because of that. The Church, only recognizes them as Saints. It is a little different than you and I referring to each other as saints with a small "s". Usually, their entire lives are looked at and there is the matter of documented Miracles as a result of their intervention in prayer. This is not a simple process.

Why??? Good question. Human nature loves heros, roll models, good examples, etc.

We will do that in our own natural way. Folks will make heros of all sorts of folks, actors, musicians, sports stars, even polititians if you can believe that one. John Wayne, Babe Ruth, Elvis are a few examples.

People like Mother Teresa & Padre Pio are a few of our comtemporary heros in the Christian Church. I cannot say that Mother Teresa even belongs to Catholics because Christians of every persuasion loved her and not just Christians. She is certainly my hero.
So is Rev. Billy Graham.

Every human soul in Heaven is a Saint with a big S. The canonized ones are brought to our attention for various reasons.

 

[bagshome]

The assertion is that everything one needs to know is in the Bible but yet the admition is that not everything is in the Bible.



Infallable does not equal everything.



Not all of them.



Yes God has answered mt through scripture. But also outside of it.


Yet you have admitted that the Bible does not say that everything is in the Bible.


I also trust Tradition. I have had God asnwer my prayers through Tradition.



According to who?



And you how do you know that you are correct?

Peace

I challenge you to provide me with a real-life scenario for which an answer cannot be found in the Bible. The Bible does not need to specify what it is, and what it is not. If you know God's word, you know that it alone provides for all of our spiritual needs. Traditions are established by men, and if they do not correlate with scripture should be avoided.