really not praying to Mary???

[stivvy]

Doesn't it seem that if you are so caught up with all these apparitions and veneration of saints and Mary isn't it distancing you from Christ? isn't it hard for Christ to get to know you if your not willing to get to know him, because you are caught up with saints and Mary?

No, we are in communion with the saints and worship with them. Their prayers and worship of God intertwines with ours. That is where many protestants miss the beauty of our faith. Like I said before, you choose not to elevate your worship as we do, fine, do it your way, but stop criticizing our way. You are not going to change us and our faith.

Recognized apperations by the mother church are held close to our hearts and if you want to challenge them do so with our mother church and quit attacking the people of the church. If our faith was a loose as yours in the leadership of the mother church, then we should question if the bible was created by the "great deciever" as it was put together by the mother church.

Maybe we should question "who is the great deciever" I vote first for Luther! He led many away from the mother church and took away books from the bible and declared his tto be the one his followers should read.

I will stick with the true mother church and her teachings and traditions as they have been around since Jesus and He was right when He said the gates of hell shall never prevail against Her.

On another note,thanks Mike for your wisdom in defending our mother church.

 

[WarriorAngel]

First of all.........'if' any apparitions are not from God....humanity would not be held at fault.

HERE is my signature........read it!

"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good" (1 Thess. 5:19–21).

BUT on the flip side....if any messages are FROM GOD, and they are not heeded, humanity will pay for it.

And since none of you are well versed in Lourdes, Fatima, or any other vision, I suggest you refrain from insulting messages from Heaven.

And I know they are from Heaven.

I know the good that has come from these messages....thousands upon thousands have been returned to Christ.

70,000 witnesses saw the sun pummel towards the earth at Fatima.
Miracles are proof from God.

Satan cannot provide miracles in this sense. Because he cannot divide his kingdom.
NOR would he divide his kingdom........all he has to do is sit back and whisper that the apparitions are not genuine, and that he did them. [the whole heel and head thing in Genesis....]

Takes the credit for something he cannot do [converting 70,000 ppl back to Christ] and therefore is able to decieve 1 million from believing in profound messages about the Lord.

These messages are warnings......about hell. And the MANY MANY MANY that go there.

Yea, sounds totally demonic to me. satan comes to warn us about the torment he has in store...yea ok.

And there is a bridge for sale....

 

[WarriorAngel]

70,000 witnesses saw the sun pummel towards the earth at Fatima.
Miracles are proof from God

my quote above;

DID I forget to add they were all cured??

 

[WarriorAngel]

DID I forget to add they were proof that as witnesses to these miracles, that many millions more converted to Christ??

Christ allows His Mother to be our messenger.
The fruits of the spirit are shown.

So, although millions were converted........ satan still was able to do his best to pull many away. Many who refuse God's graces.

Mary's apparitions to save humanity are some of the most profound graces we have on earth.

Christ manifests the most powerful messages on earth to bring His ppl to Him, and the spiritual war ensues behind the scenes, and ppl give this credit to evil.

Because evil is deceptive and satan knows scripture better than any on earth.
He uses the line about the angel of light.

HOWEVER: as we seem to forget CHRIST Himself said, he cannot divide his kingdom. [which is to say, by doing GOOD for humanity in cures, and exorcising his own, and bringing many to the Lord]

 

[Iollain]

I will stick with the true mother church and her teachings and traditions as they have been around since Jesus and He was right when He said the gates of hell shall never prevail against Her.

The very thought of a Jewish Peter bowing at a Mary statue and participating in a 'Total Consecration' would prove otherwise. Obviously the gates of hell have not prevailed as there are Holy Ghost filled people still on the earth.

 

[Asinner]

The very thought of a Jewish Peter bowing at a Mary statue and participating in a 'Total Consecration' would prove otherwise. Obviously the gates of hell have not prevailed as there are Holy Ghost filled people still on the earth.

Thoughts??

Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.

We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious [1384] principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, [1385] and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. [1386] And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

 

[Iollain]

Thoughts??

Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.

We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious [1384] principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, [1385] and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. [1386] And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

Yup, that sounds like Mary.

 

[BreadAlone]

We DON'T need people to interven before God for us, that's what Jesus is for. He wipes away our sins before God. The Holy Spirit also plays a part in prayer. He makes our prayers right before God in heaven.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thoughts??

Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.

We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious [1384] principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, [1385] and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. [1386] And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

HOW deeply and devoutly the ECF's taught us to revere Our Lady.

And the women who wished to be with her....
DID they worship her?

No they wanted an intimate love with the Mother of our Lord.

Who held all virtues, like the angels.

Thank you sweetie....again, proof that even while she lived, she had a following.

Yet today... so many say she was a used vehicle.

It makes me wonder.... how does the Lord feel about that insult.

 

[Iollain]

He also searches us and prays for our infirmities, that we don't even know of or how to pray for.

 

[Iollain]

HOW deeply and devoutly the ECF's taught us to revere Our Lady.

And the women who wished to be with her....
DID they worship her?

No they wanted an intimate love with the Mother of our Lord.

Who held all virtues, like the angels.

Thank you sweetie....again, proof that even while she lived, she had a following.

Yet today... so many say she was a used vehicle.

It makes me wonder.... how does the Lord feel about that insult.

So your going to tell us that if Peter were here he would not have a following, or Enoch? or Moses...Abraham? or John the Baptist?

I think your confusing the godliness of certain peoples with their place in Christ, they are not to be prayed to or bowed to or Totally Consecrating yourself to because they were/are the 'biggies' of the Faith.

 

[WarriorAngel]

We DON'T need people to interven before God for us, that's what Jesus is for. He wipes away our sins before God. The Holy Spirit also plays a part in prayer. He makes our prayers right before God in heaven.

See, this is why the Catholic Church [and other Traditional Churches] is different than protestant denominations.

WE have NOT removed ourselves from our Founder. {Christ} and His Apostles...and still sustain what was taught by them.

Protestants however, forgot what Luther taught them.

Here is what he and others who left the Church taught.



[SIZE=-1]Along with virtually all important Protestant Founders (e.g., Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer), Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God):[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1](Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1](Ibid.)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]God says . . . : "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1](Ibid.)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother . . . She is the true mother of God and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](On the Councils and the Church, 1539)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Probably the most astonishing Marian belief of Luther is his acceptance of Mary's Immaculate Conception, which wasn't even definitively proclaimed as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1854. Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind. Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine. Luther's words follow:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1](Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 15[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], p. 58[/SIZE][SIZE=-1])[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Later references to the Immaculate Conception appear in his House sermon for Christmas (1533) and Against the Papacy of Rome (1545). In later life (he died in 1546), Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it. Such a view is consistent with his notion of sola Scriptura and is similar to his opinion on the bodily Assumption of the Virgin, which he never denied - although he was highly critical of what he felt were excesses in the celebration of this Feast. In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Luther held to the idea and devotional practice of the veneration of Mary and expressed this on innumerable occasions with the most effusive language:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Sermon, September 1, 1522)[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1][She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Sermon, Christmas, 1531)[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1](Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]Luther goes even further, and gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians, much the same as in Catholic piety:[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=-1]It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother, God is his father.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Sermon, Christmas, 1522)[/SIZE]
    
    I could go on and on.....

• • http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

 

[Iollain]

Martin did not believe in praying at saints.

 

[Asinner]

I think your confusing the godliness of certain peoples with their place in Christ, they are not to be prayed to or bowed to or Totally Consecrating yourself to because they were/are the 'biggies' of the Faith.

Iollian,

It is really very simple. Those who ask for her intercession love her.

God Bless

 

[WarriorAngel]

Martin did not believe in praying at saints.

Indeed...and you know this how??
For you did NOT even know his absolute devotion to Mary....
And I believe he specifically stated that we come to God through her.

What in your opinion, would that mean??

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. [SIZE=-1](Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)[/SIZE]

What in your opinion is honor?
IN fact he said...the true honor of Mary, is the honor of God.

Of which Catholics have always believed.

Who here is truly following their founders??

How does ONE come to the Lord through Mary if they do not believe Mary is important.

 

[Iollain]

Iollian,

It is really very simple. Those who ask for her intercession love her.

God Bless

Ok, so your saying people who do not pray at Mary otherwise do not 'love' her.

prayer to = affection for

And really it is not that simple at all.

 

[WarriorAngel]

MARTIN LUTHER DID pray to Mary!!


VI. Praying To Mary

In a sermon of August 15, 1516, Luther was to say, “O blessed mother! O most worthy virgin! Remember us, and grant that the Lord do such great things to us too.”[50] In 1519, Luther still could exhort his congregation to “call upon the holy angels, particularly his own angel, the Mother of God, and all the apostles and saints”[51]as a comfort in the hour when each was to face their own death.

 

[Iollain]

Indeed...and you know this how??

Because i've saw people on this forum prove differently...that Martin, in later years did not agree with the RC 'veneration' of Mary.

For you did NOT even know his absolute devotion to Mary....
And I believe he specifically stated that we come to God through her.

What in your opinion, would that mean??

I'm not sure what he ment but i'm sure your probably twisting it to mean the same thing you think.

What in your opinion is honor?
IN fact he said...the true honor of Mary, is the honor of God.

Of which Catholics have always believed.

Who here is truly following their founders??

How does ONE come to the Lord through Mary if they do not believe Mary is important.

Yes i know your following your founders, however i'll follow the founders of the Bible.

 

[Asinner]

Ok, so your saying people who do not pray at Mary otherwise do not 'love' her.

No.

prayer to = affection for

And really it is not that simple at all.

We talk to them out of our love for them as members of ONE Body in Christ. We ask for their prayers. All of heaven rejoices at one repentent sinner.

God Bless

 

[Asinner]

Yes i know your following your founders, however i'll follow the founders of the Bible.

Like John the Apostle? Who taught Ignatius?

God Bless