really not praying to Mary???

[Iollain]

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers Theology of Mary.htm#VI

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yes i know your following your founders, however i'll follow the founders of the Bible.

OUR Founders are the ONES who wrote the New Testament......who were the foundations built on the ONE foundation...Christ.

YOU have the founders WHO interpretted the Bible..

You can only claim yours built upon a man.
Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, or Cranmer.

Take your pick. None of them have Apostolic succession, and never will.

Hence this is why you only have half of God's Word.
Tradition, which is marked and written of in the Early Church Fathers, is not in your tradition.

Yet you have tradition, but it is not Apostolic.

No where has the Rapture been written about by the ECF's...and yet many will claim what it is.

Tell me, how do you 'back up' protestant traditions that are not spcifically in scriptures and Apostolic succession?

NO where through out history has the concepts the protestants stand by been agreed upon by early christians.

 

[Iollain]

Like John the Apostle? Who taught Ignatius?

God Bless

ok, don't keep me hanging, what is it that Ignatius wrote that you'd like me to see?

 

[Asinner]

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers Theology of Mary.htm#VI

This is nothing more than an opinion. I find his opinion, rather lacking and a bit biased.


"But what does Luther mean by “through Mary”? Luther does not mean, “by praying to her,” but rather by thanking God for creating such a noble, blessed, person"


God Bless

 

[Asinner]

ok, don't keep me hanging, what is it that Ignatius wrote that you'd like me to see?

post #346.

 

[Iollain]

OUR Founders are the ONES who wrote the New Testament......who were the foundations built on the ONE foundation...Christ.

YOU have the founders WHO interpretted the Bible..

You can only claim yours built upon a man.
Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, or Cranmer.

Take your pick. None of them have Apostolic succession, and never will.

Hence this is why you only have half of God's Word.
Tradition, which is marked and written of in the Early Church Fathers, is not in your tradition.

Yet you have tradition, but it is not Apostolic.

No where has the Rapture been written about by the ECF's...and yet many will claim what it is.

Tell me, how do you 'back up' protestant traditions that are not spcifically in scriptures and Apostolic succession?

NO where through out history has the concepts the protestants stand by been agreed upon by early christians.

Your going to have to be more specific.

 

[Iollain]

post #346.

Sorry i don't see anything wrong with what he wrote.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Basically ALL the tenets of the faith since the beginning.

For some, the dismissal of infant baptism.

Purgation.

The Prsense of Christ in the Eucharist...

Just to name a few. Which were all maintained and written about long b4 1500 AD.

So what part of the actual Tradition has been kept??

The denial of these concepts...are new laid traditions taught by men...

 

[Iollain]

Basically ALL the tenets of the faith since the beginning.

For some, the dismissal of infant baptism.

Purgation.

The Prsense of Christ in the Eucharist...

Just to name a few. Which were all maintained and written about long b4 1500 AD.

So what part of the actual Tradition has been kept??

The denial of these concepts...are new laid traditions taught by men...

I have a Calvanist belief in the Lord's Table. The same one many were killed for believing.

If you want to discuss the beginnings of these beliefs you'll have to start new threads so we can discuss them separately.

 

[Asinner]

Sorry i don't see anything wrong with what he wrote.

This letter addresses issues such as many revering her, her ever-virginity, her being the new Eve, and her having heavenly "powers". I have emboldened these points:


We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious [1384] principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, [1385] and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. [1386] And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

 

[Iollain]

This letter addresses issues such as many revering her, her ever-virginity, her being the new Eve, and her having heavenly "powers". I have emboldened these points:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Why wouldn't they rever her? This may point to ever-virgin, maybe it is comparing her with one, whatever. Yes she is definitly a beginning of the Faith, i would liken her to Abraham's wife, Sarah, definitly a mother in the Faith, she may have laid hands on people and been a miracle worker in her life on earth, but that does not point to having anything to do with the omnipresent, Holy Spirit-like powers that certain peoples think she has now in Heaven, i do not see Ignatius saying that at all.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This letter addresses issues such as many revering her, her ever-virginity, her being the new Eve, and her having heavenly "powers". I have emboldened these points:


We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious [1384] principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, [1385] and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. [1386] And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

AGAIN!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Why wouldn't they rever her? This may point to ever-virgin, maybe it is comparing her with one, whatever. Yes she is definitly a beginning of the Faith, i would liken her to Abraham's wife, Sarah, definitly a mother in the Faith, she may have laid hands on people and been a miracle worker in her life on earth, but that does not point to having anything to do with the omnipresent, Holy Spirit-like powers that certain peoples think she has now in Heaven, i do not see Ignatius saying that at all.

AGAIN....Calvin believed in Mary.

[SIZE=-1]In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity . . .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]{Max Thurian (Protestant), Mary: Mother of all Christians, tr. Neville B. Cryer, NY: Herder & Herder, 1963 (orig. 1962), pp. 77, 197}[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]The title 'Ever Virgin' (aeiparthenos, semper virgo) arose early in Christianity . . . It was a stock phrase in the Middle Ages and continued to be used in Protestant confessional writings (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Andrewes; Book of Concord [1580], Schmalkaldic Articles [1537]).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]{Raymond E. Brown et al, ed., Mary in the New Testament, Phil.: Fortress Press / NY: Paulist Press, 1978, p.65 (a joint Catholic-Protestant effort) }[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]Mary was formally separated from Protestant worship and prayer in the 16th century; in the 20th century the divorce is complete. Even the singing of the 'Magnificat' caused the Puritans to have scruples, and if they gave up the Apostles' Creed, it was not only because of the offensive adjective 'Catholic', but also because of the mention of the Virgin . . .[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1][But] Calvin, like Luther and Zwingli, taught the perpetual virginity of Mary. The early Reformers even applied, though with some reticence, the title Theotokos to Mary . . . Calvin called on his followers to venerate and praise her as the teacher who instructs them in her Son's commands.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]{J.A. Ross MacKenzie (Protestant), in Stacpoole, Alberic, ed., Mary's Place in Christian Dialogue, Wilton, Conn.: Morehouse-Barlow, 1982, pp.35-6}[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]John Calvin[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1][On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-1]Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }[/SIZE]

 

[Iollain]

AGAIN!!

I really don't see the big deal.........what would you expect?

 

[WarriorAngel]

The rendition of not honoring Mary, and not continuing to know her Ever Virgin status is a NEW tradition...never kept through out history.

NOT even the men who interpretted their own slice of new laid doctrines could deny the Honor and devotion and Ever Virginity of Mary.

That is since the 1900's that these concepts have grown.

Or is that unimportant now??

 

[Iollain]

Well that is lovely but that has nothing to do with praying at saints, Calvin did not agree with that.

 

[Asinner]

Why wouldn't they rever her? This may point to ever-virgin, maybe it is comparing her with one, whatever. Yes she is definitly a beginning of the Faith, i would liken her to Abraham's wife, Sarah, definitly a mother in the Faith, she may have laid hands on people and been a miracle worker in her life on earth, but that does not point to having anything to do with the omnipresent, Holy Spirit-like powers that certain peoples think she has now in Heaven, i do not see Ignatius saying that at all.

If I tell you I do not worship Mary, nor do I believe her to be God, would you believe me?

God Bless

 

[WarriorAngel]

If I tell you I do not worship Mary, nor do I believe her to be God, would you believe me?

God Bless

They do not believe us, the Catholics.

Calvin and Luther might not have LATER believed in Saints, but then again they were laying down new doctrines.

THEY were Not anything keeping what was thru time, and including scriptures, and the ECF's.

So , thanks but no thanks...I will keep what historically has been since the foundation of Christianity.


We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.


Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai&#8221, but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:


Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?


1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).


1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.



1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Veneration / Honor of the Saints

Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.


Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor?

Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

 

[Iollain]

ScriptureCatholic.com i presume?


guess tonight i'll have to dig up the cd that i saved when i took hours and hours of looking up these in the Bible and refuting them.....can't do that right now have to go visiting soon.

They sure like to add 2 + 2 and get 99 over there.