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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
really not praying to Mary???
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No one is disputing that Jesus is the way. What is being disputed is the misrepresentation of others belives and the continued spreading of a straw man.
Peace
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mike1reynolds
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mike1reynolds
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mike1reynolds
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If you spread lies about the religion of others you will be judged for this on judgment day.
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mike1reynolds
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Theophorus
...
I am sorry, but when I go to the Divine Liturgy, we worship the Holy Trinity. Everything is done in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".
We recite the crede in unison, which mentions nothing about the Theotokos, as bells are rung among other things. After communion we sing that we have received the true faith, "worshiping the undivided Trinity."
Takes about an Hour and 1/2 to 2 hours to worship in this way. We stand pretty much the whole time. Maybe some should check it out, at least to get a better idea of what worship means.
We recite the crede in unison, which mentions nothing about the Theotokos, as bells are rung among other things. After communion we sing that we have received the true faith, "worshiping the undivided Trinity."
Takes about an Hour and 1/2 to 2 hours to worship in this way. We stand pretty much the whole time. Maybe some should check it out, at least to get a better idea of what worship means.
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Theophorus
...
BTW, I pray to Mary, and St. Demetrios, St. Vincent, and St. Michael among others.
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mike1reynolds said:
How is asking His mother to ask Him bypassing Him?
Because the whole point of everything Jesus went through was to do one thing. To restore mans relationship with God. It is a slap in Hisface to pray to other people, and don't say they don't pray to them. Many people on this thread have admitted to it. Jesus wasn't tortured and killed so His people could pray to his mother. There is nothing in bible that gives Mary or anyone else this kind of power. Jesus prayed to His Father. Jesus told his disciples to pray to God in His name. It is very simple. It is not disrespectful to Jesus or His mother to say this, because we have biblical backing. No one is taking away Marys role as the Mother of Jesus Christ. It is an honour in itself. But she has no authority as a medatrix, co-redeamer or intercessor for mankind. That is the job or our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit He gives us.
How is asking His mother to ask Him bypassing Him?
Because the whole point of everything Jesus went through was to do one thing. To restore mans relationship with God. It is a slap in Hisface to pray to other people, and don't say they don't pray to them. Many people on this thread have admitted to it. Jesus wasn't tortured and killed so His people could pray to his mother. There is nothing in bible that gives Mary or anyone else this kind of power. Jesus prayed to His Father. Jesus told his disciples to pray to God in His name. It is very simple. It is not disrespectful to Jesus or His mother to say this, because we have biblical backing. No one is taking away Marys role as the Mother of Jesus Christ. It is an honour in itself. But she has no authority as a medatrix, co-redeamer or intercessor for mankind. That is the job or our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit He gives us.
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- Apr 11, 2005
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We all know the role of a Christian. 
We are to serve the Lord, pray for others, and yield fruit for Jesus.
WHO better to do this, than His own Mother?
Who was the first Christian??
Who believed even before Christ came into the world?
Mary wants ONE thing, and ONE thing only....to bring ppl to His Son, Whom she saw suffer before her eyes. Whom she gave birth to, whom she loved beyond measure in this world, and the next. WHom she nursed, put to bed, taught Him, prayed WITH Him, and raised because HE IS Her Son.
Her claim is highest...
Her job as Mother has not ended. She brings ppl to her Son to please Him.
Knowing from the start what she would take upon her...[being full of grace made this manifest to her.]
Her sacrifice as Mother to watch her beloved Son torn up for mankind, was NO easy task.
I know mothers who lost their children, and the pain is the deepest upon earth.
She gave up her will, to do the Lord's perfect will.
She submitted fully and humbly.
GOD created Mary to be distinct, and to be perfect to carry, and to nurse from her being. To which her flesh became her Son's flesh. Her Son became our God.
She was not some random choice, she was deliberately made the way she was in order to house the Lord's only begotten Son.
I cannot even begin to explain the FIAT of Mary from God.
AS God has nothing that can stop Him from doing what He chooses, nothing can put a limit to His powers. For none of us can counsel Him, Our Creator.
AND I am the ONE who referred to Mary as the Ark.
The ark of the covenent contained representations of the priesthood, kingship (law) and prophet (manna)
Jesus is the Highest priest, He is the Law, and He is the manna.
Altho Mary bore Jesus as the ark bore the title of Jesus I don't think anyone would agree that praying to the ark of the covenant would achieve anything.
Just as the New Covenant surpasses the Old, so the new Ark of the Covenant (Our Lady) is superior to the old. The old Ark contained the word of God inscribed on stone tablets, but the new Ark contained the Incarnate Word of God. The old Ark held the Law that could not justify, but the new Ark held Jesus Christ Who Himself is the eternal New Covenant with God; He Who justifies and saves. Moses placed the manna from the desert before the Tablets in the old Ark of the Covenant, but the new Ark was the repository of the true Manna, the Bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ the Son of God. The old Ark was made of inanimate materials, but the new Ark is the greatest human person whoever has or ever will live - she whose soul has been adorned by God with a superabundance of the choicest graces.
The Israelites had a great reverential fear for the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Only the priests were allowed to touch it. The Lord struck down Oza for touching the Ark when the Israelites were moving it to Jerusalem (2 Kings 6:6-7). And the Ark of the Covenant proved to be a blessing for Obededom and all his household when it stayed in his house for three months (2 Kings 6:10-11). How much more then is loving respect and honor due to the new Ark of the Covenant - the Magnificent Mother of God. For it is through Mary's fiat that we have received such a glorious Savior Who redeemed us by His Holy Cross and nourishes us with His Body and Blood.
St. Anthanasius [a Coptic Saint]
O Ark of the new covenant, clad on all sides with purity in place of gold; the one in whom is found the golden vase with its true manna, that is the flesh in which lies the God-head.
IF we should fear the Old Ark....and the Old Ark was a shadow of the New Ark, how much respect should we yield to Our Lady?
God takes these things very seriously. Gravely in fact.
If the Old Ark was revered that much....think about the Ark in which He sent His only Son to the World in.
IS JESUS less than the ark that housed stone tablets?
Or does God hold Him much higher??
Think about it.
We are to serve the Lord, pray for others, and yield fruit for Jesus.
WHO better to do this, than His own Mother?
Who was the first Christian??
Who believed even before Christ came into the world?
Mary wants ONE thing, and ONE thing only....to bring ppl to His Son, Whom she saw suffer before her eyes. Whom she gave birth to, whom she loved beyond measure in this world, and the next. WHom she nursed, put to bed, taught Him, prayed WITH Him, and raised because HE IS Her Son.
Her claim is highest...
Her job as Mother has not ended. She brings ppl to her Son to please Him.
Knowing from the start what she would take upon her...[being full of grace made this manifest to her.]
Her sacrifice as Mother to watch her beloved Son torn up for mankind, was NO easy task.
I know mothers who lost their children, and the pain is the deepest upon earth.
She gave up her will, to do the Lord's perfect will.
She submitted fully and humbly.
GOD created Mary to be distinct, and to be perfect to carry, and to nurse from her being. To which her flesh became her Son's flesh. Her Son became our God.
She was not some random choice, she was deliberately made the way she was in order to house the Lord's only begotten Son.
I cannot even begin to explain the FIAT of Mary from God.
AS God has nothing that can stop Him from doing what He chooses, nothing can put a limit to His powers. For none of us can counsel Him, Our Creator.
AND I am the ONE who referred to Mary as the Ark.
The ark of the covenent contained representations of the priesthood, kingship (law) and prophet (manna)
Jesus is the Highest priest, He is the Law, and He is the manna.
Altho Mary bore Jesus as the ark bore the title of Jesus I don't think anyone would agree that praying to the ark of the covenant would achieve anything.
Just as the New Covenant surpasses the Old, so the new Ark of the Covenant (Our Lady) is superior to the old. The old Ark contained the word of God inscribed on stone tablets, but the new Ark contained the Incarnate Word of God. The old Ark held the Law that could not justify, but the new Ark held Jesus Christ Who Himself is the eternal New Covenant with God; He Who justifies and saves. Moses placed the manna from the desert before the Tablets in the old Ark of the Covenant, but the new Ark was the repository of the true Manna, the Bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ the Son of God. The old Ark was made of inanimate materials, but the new Ark is the greatest human person whoever has or ever will live - she whose soul has been adorned by God with a superabundance of the choicest graces.
The Israelites had a great reverential fear for the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Only the priests were allowed to touch it. The Lord struck down Oza for touching the Ark when the Israelites were moving it to Jerusalem (2 Kings 6:6-7). And the Ark of the Covenant proved to be a blessing for Obededom and all his household when it stayed in his house for three months (2 Kings 6:10-11). How much more then is loving respect and honor due to the new Ark of the Covenant - the Magnificent Mother of God. For it is through Mary's fiat that we have received such a glorious Savior Who redeemed us by His Holy Cross and nourishes us with His Body and Blood.
St. Anthanasius [a Coptic Saint]
O Ark of the new covenant, clad on all sides with purity in place of gold; the one in whom is found the golden vase with its true manna, that is the flesh in which lies the God-head.
IF we should fear the Old Ark....and the Old Ark was a shadow of the New Ark, how much respect should we yield to Our Lady?
God takes these things very seriously. Gravely in fact.
If the Old Ark was revered that much....think about the Ark in which He sent His only Son to the World in.
IS JESUS less than the ark that housed stone tablets?
Or does God hold Him much higher??
Think about it.
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So what you are saying is.....
Jesus is Redeemer, and Co Redeemer??
And the Greek for 'One Mediator' is 'Primary' Mediator.
To which, if Jesus was Sole mediator...then you could not pray for others either.....
EVERYTIME you ask God to help someone, you place yourself as mediator.
Mediator to Jesus...
So why are you more capable of the task than Our Lady Whom Christ loves as His only Mother??
And once again....I ask.
IF we should fear the Old Ark....and the Old Ark was a shadow of the New Ark, how much respect should we yield to Our Lady?
God takes these things very seriously. Gravely in fact.
If the Old Ark was revered that much....think about the Ark in which He sent His only Son to the World in.
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Smileyill
Veteran
Very thoughtful posts.
This issue boils down to one thing, for me. The Mary prayers read "to." They do not read "ask." If you wish to "ask" Mary "to" pray for you, then state that clearly in the prayer. Otherwise, you ask us doubters to believe you say one thing and mean another. Please, mean what you say and say what you mean. When leadership (pope etc.) read a prayer such as that, they lead others astray. This I can't accept. Matt. 18:6-7
This issue boils down to one thing, for me. The Mary prayers read "to." They do not read "ask." If you wish to "ask" Mary "to" pray for you, then state that clearly in the prayer. Otherwise, you ask us doubters to believe you say one thing and mean another. Please, mean what you say and say what you mean. When leadership (pope etc.) read a prayer such as that, they lead others astray. This I can't accept. Matt. 18:6-7
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kamikat
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Do you know what the prayers say? Have you read them? The most famous one, the Ave Maria ends by asking Mary to pray for us.
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death".
Is that clear enough for you?
kamikat
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