really not praying to Mary???

[Peaceful Dove]

Where was it a practice of the first Christians to pray TO Mary

Why don't you ask when the first time was that Mary interceded to her son for a favor? And her Son honored her request?

 

[christianmomof3]

Genesis 3; 15

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.


Now, has Christ had an identity crisis? NO!!

It is very specific that SHE shall crush his head...
And he shall lie in wait for HER heel.

I have listed all the Bible versions I could find and so did another member, and none of them have she or her in them. What Bible version is this you are quoting?

 

[mike1reynolds]

OK, she got one out of a dozen points wrong. It doesn’t make your vacuous assertions any more substantive.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Douay - Rheims Link

Latin Vulgate.
15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et sperm tuum et sperm illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius


15 "She shall crush"... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.


Which still means that Our Lady is closest of creatures to Her Son.

But the Latin is accurate.

 

[christianmomof3]

OK, she got one out of a dozen points wrong. It doesn’t make your vacuous assertions any more substantive.

Actually, I am not trying to pick on her or anyone, just trying to clarify the scripture - I have found several "wrong points" and I have not gotten a response to them.
She said this:

Revelation says the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE NATIONS....JUDGE!!!
Mary is a Saint, therefore in order to judge she has to KNOW what is going on.....
SIMON SAYS MARY'S heart shall be pierced by the sword, and SHE WILL READ HEARTS OF MEN!!

Which I questioned because I had never heard anything about Mary being a mind reader or heart reader and the mind is part of the heart. And here was my response:

I also have some questions about this.
Where does Simon (do you mean Peter?) say that Mary will read the hearts of men?
I did a search on Mary and heart and did not come up with any verses that state that or anything close to it.
As for the part about judging - you listed Apocalypse as a book in the Bible. Did you mean Revelation? I read Rev. 2:26 and it is referring to the overcomers having authority over the nations in the millenial kingdom - not dead people judging living people in this age.

Then someone else posted the verses - apparantly she was referring to Simeon, not Simonand here was another response I gave:

Quote:

Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;


Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed

Ok, so this is Simeon - not Simon.
These verses show us that the Lord Jesus was appointed to be a test to the children of Israel, and many would be raised up by Him and many would be stumbled by Him. The Lord is also spoken against by many.
What is written in our hearts is easily revealed by our attitude towards Christ.
It does not say that these thoughts are revealed only to Mary or even who they are revealed to.

I never got a response to those points either.
Mary does not read the hearts of men - the scripture she used to back that does not fit with that idea.
Physically dead people do not judge the living people - only the Lord Judges us and the scripture she gave on that point did not support the point either.
I still would like to know what Bible she is using because that might help me understand where some of these concepts are from.
Thank you and may you all come to the full knowledge of Christ.

 

[livingword26]

I'm not sure what points she got right, and by the way, how is saying that Mary cannot hear prayers or that she is not our intercessor or mediator, insulting to Jesus, or His mother. No one says that she is not blessed indeed to have been chosen to bare Christ. But adding all of the other Godly attributes to her is what is insulting. She is a human, not a God. Jesus mother, yes, mediatrix, no.

 

[christianmomof3]

Douay - Rheims Link

Latin Vulgate.
15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et sperm tuum et sperm illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius


15 "She shall crush"... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.


Which still means that Our Lady is closest of creatures to Her Son.

But the Latin is accurate.

Thank you for showing which Bible you are using. So, it is the seed, who is Jesus Christ, who does the crushing, not the woman.

That is neat that you can read latin.
Once my children are old enough that I have a little free time I want to take some Hebrew classes so I can read the Old Testament in Hebrew. I went to Hebrew school when I was younger, but I dropped out of it because it was too hard. But, I think that my background in knowing some Hebrew will help me to learn it easier as an adult.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

It doesn't matter what folks say about this scripture. It simply doesn't make it right.
This scripture has been tested by Bible Scholars and Jewish Rabbi's. I have been studying this scripture in Genesis and researching Scholars for years.
Rabbi's who are Professors of ancient languages seem to all agree, the Scripture is the first Messianic prophesy and can mean no one other than Jesus's mother, Mary.

I challenge you to quote any certified Scholar who can show evidence that the ancient acceptance of this is not true.

I won't argue with any of you, individually, just show me proof this is not true.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Good, go for it. I got it straight from a Rabbi, a Professor of ancient languages in a Hebrew College in Southern California.
Find me such a person who contradicts the writing and I will be open to it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Actually, I am not trying to pick on her or anyone, just trying to clarify the scripture - I have found several "wrong points" and I have not gotten a response to them.
She said this:

Which I questioned because I had never heard anything about Mary being a mind reader or heart reader and the mind is part of the heart. And here was my response:

Then someone else posted the verses - apparantly she was referring to Simeon, not Simonand here was another response I gave:

I never got a response to those points either.
Mary does not read the hearts of men - the scripture she used to back that does not fit with that idea.
Physically dead people do not judge the living people - only the Lord Judges us and the scripture she gave on that point did not support the point either.
I still would like to know what Bible she is using because that might help me understand where some of these concepts are from.
Thank you and may you all come to the full knowledge of Christ.

Luke 2
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted;
35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.



IT was to Mary that Simeon spoke to when he said....'AND thy own soul...'

If I am not understood the first time, I seldom return to keep on a subject which cannot be explained...to someone whom may never see what I am showing them.

Therefore, I wont keep stating the same scriptures over and over.

I am going to venture to guess if we discussed how Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, we would be here til dawn.

I will say this.....how very very venerated that ark was in the OT. How honored and adorned it was because it carried the word of God...

Think about how the Woman would be venerated that carried the WORD of God.

Now for homework.... please go and seek the contents that were placed in the Ark for safe keeping. WE might yet get somewhere.

 

[christianmomof3]

Hmm, and I thought that the Ark of the New Covenant is the church, the Body of Christ.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It doesn't matter what folks say about this scripture. It simply doesn't make it right.
This scripture has been tested by Bible Scholars and Jewish Rabbi's. I have been studying this scripture in Genesis and researching Scholars for years.
Rabbi's who are Professors of ancient languages seem to all agree, the Scripture is the first Messianic prophesy and can mean no one other than Jesus's mother, Mary.

I challenge you to quote any certified Scholar who can show evidence that the ancient acceptance of this is not true.

I won't argue with any of you, individually, just show me proof this is not true.

Which is why I trust the Douay Rhiems version the most. Directly taken from the Latin Vulgate.


Most English versions have lost the immediate translations of the original languages. [Hebrew and Greek]

LET ME ASK...is anyone else having issues with making posts and replies?

My system takes 10 pushes on the button to make a reply.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I'm not sure what points she got right, and by the way, how is saying that Mary cannot hear prayers or that she is not our intercessor or mediator, insulting to Jesus, or His mother.

You are calling Jesus’ mother a chump.

No one says that she is not blessed indeed to have been chosen to bare Christ. But adding all of the other Godly attributes to her is what is insulting.

What Godly attributes? She asks her son and her son honors her as the 10 commandments say He should.

She is a human, not a God. Jesus mother, yes, mediatrix, no.

Only religous bigots claim that anyone views Mary as a god.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The ark of the covenent contained representations of the priesthood, kingship (law) and prophet (manna)

Altho Mary bore Jesus as the ark bore the title of Jesus I don't think anyone would agree that praying to the ark of the covenant would achieve anything.

 

[mike1reynolds]

You couldn't talk to the ark either. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Comparing people to inanimate objects is not exactly a token of respect. People are so busy trying to attack other denominations that it doesn't even occur to them that they are insulting the Lord's mother. Just give it some thought, how do you think Jesus would feel about this comparison?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have thought about it and I think He would be sad that they didn't come to Him in fellowship rather than bypassing Him.

 

[mike1reynolds]

How is asking His mother to ask Him bypassing Him? How is comparing His mother to an inanimate object something that would sit just fine with Him??

You clearly haven't given it any real thought, any more than you have the slightest idea about the practices you are criticizing. You are so concerned about the mote in the eyes of others when you clearly have a plank in your own eye.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Did Jesus say He is the way? or Mary is the way? I think your lost.

 

[lionroar0]

I have thought about it and I think He would be sad that they didn't come to Him in fellowship rather than bypassing Him.

The same can be said when people don't go directly to Him but ask others to pray for them.

Peace

 

[mike1reynolds]

Did Jesus say He is the way? or Mary is the way? I think your lost.

Who said Mary is the way? Telling lies about what people believe isn't going to get you into Heaven any quicker.