really not praying to Mary???

mike1reynolds said:

The answer is obvious, people in Purgatory are in trouble and in no position to give anyone help. You only ask for help from people who can give it, not from those in an even worse situation.

Click to expand...

But how do people know if they are or are not in purgatory?

The problem is that we are for the most part Gentiles. The Bible was written by Jews, and the first audience was Jews. Within that Jewish culture, the queen would rule alongside the king. But the quend was not the wife of the king. The king could have several wives. No, the queen was his mother.

This is brought out especially in the first 2 chapters of I Kings. When David was still alive, Bathsheba would bow before him. But after David died, King Solomon would now to his mother, Bathsheba.


So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, "I am making one small request of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Ask, my mother, for I will not refuse you."

I King 2:19, 20

The Jews took God's command to honor your father and mother seriously. This can be especially seen by Solomon. Look at what he did:

1. He bowed before her.
2. He set a throne for her right next him.
3. He told her that he will not refuse anything she asks.

I could go through the whole Old Testament and show how the mother of king ruled along with her son. The Jews would call her the Queen Mother.

Witing this context of the king deeply honor his mother as the king, we see Jesus in the New Testament as being the Christ, the King of the Jews. Jesus came an preached that He was bringing in the kingdom of heaven. As soom as a first-century Jew heard this, that Jesus was their King, he would naturally assume that Mary, His mother, would be the Queen Mother.

Why the Bible is not more explicit about Mary being the Queen I do not know. Dr Scott Hahn suggested that the apostles, knowing that the enemies would have tortured and killed Mary if they knew how imprtant Mary was to them. So they kept quiet about this as long as she was alive.

BUT, notice that the only New Testament book that was written after Mary died was the Revelation of John. In this book, John was free to say how important Mary was to the apostles:


A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rev 12:1

This woman is clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet, and a crown of 12 stars. This sure sounds to me like this woman is the Queen of Heaven. But how do we know this woman is Mary? Read on

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne

Look at these clues. She has a son, this son is to rull all nations, and this son ascended up to God. This son could not be anyone else but Jesus. So if the woman's son is Jesus, then this woman must be Mary.

And yet this passage does not stop there. This woman has other children.

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Here it says that Mary has other children. These other children are all who obey the commands of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. In other words, Mary is our spiritual mother. And what child does not go to his mother when in need? Sure,we can go to Jesus, but we also go to our spritual mother.

I look at it this way. Both my father and mother loved me, but in different ways. My father (may he rest in peace) gave me more tough love. He was loving, but he was strict one me. And I thank him for being that way. The same way with Jesus. Sure, Jesus loves us, but He is also the Judge of all the eath. Jesus is the God of love, but He is also the God of wrath. I recall how in the Chronicles of Narnia, He was decribed as being all-good, but not tame. Paul once wrote that it is dreadful thing fall into the hands of an angry God. Jesus is not just our Friend, He is our Judge. He is going to rule with a rod of iron. One Judgement Day, He will separate the sheep from the goats. But Mary will never come to us in wrath. She always comes to her children tenderly.

Look at John 4, the wedding of Cana. Mary had compassion on the couple for such a little thing as running out wine. When she approached her Son, He said that this was beneath Him (He also said it was beneath Mary). Jesus was being like me strict father. In the grand scheme of things, whether this wedding had wine was insignicant. But Jesus gave in. He gave what Mary wanted. Why. Because Mary was His mother, He granted her request, although He Himself thought that this was not deserving of a miracle.

Here it is the Bible. The Bible says that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. The only time Jesus does a miracle that does not seem to fit into the grand scheme of things is when His mother asked Him. The Bible says that we are all Mary's spiritual children. The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.

In what way do others give help?

Click to expand...

With their prayers for us.

mike1reynolds said:

You think it is immature to think your grandmother wants to hear from you? She is alive, she is not dead.

I am not distorting your beliefs, you sincerely think your grandmother in Heaven doesn't care about hearing from you. I think that this as much of an issue for your grandmother as it is for Jesus' mother. I don't think that either are pleased by assuming they that should be ignored.

Click to expand...

If they can bring your prayers to the throne of God then why have the golden alter with the prayers of His people?

But how do people know if they are or are not in purgatory?

That is why people ask saints for their prayers, and generally only pray FOR their ancestors, rather than asking their ancestors for help.

mike1reynolds said:

With their prayers for us.

Click to expand...

Mike you should change your icon to the CC icon.

...then why have the golden alter with the prayers of His people?

Click to expand...

I'm not clear on what you are referring too. What golden alter?

mike1reynolds said:

But how do people know if they are or are not in purgatory?

That is why people ask saints for their prayers, and generally only pray FOR their ancestors, rather than asking their ancestors for help.

Click to expand...

So are you saying the saints here, or the saints there?

Why should I change my icon? Just because I disagree with your unfair criticisms? I just have a thing about fairness. Peaceful Dove would love to convert me, but it isn't likely to happen.

Post # 162 God forbad to pray to the Queen of heaven

So are you saying the saints here, or the saints there?

Does someone stop being a saint when they go to Heaven, in your estimation? Or are you asserting that they don't actually become saints until they die?

And Rev 12 refers to overcomer IMO. Sorry, the quote button wasn't working

mike1reynolds said:

Why should I change my icon? Just because I disagree with your unfair criticisms? I just have a thing about fairness. Peaceful Dove would love to convert me, but it isn't likely to happen.

Click to expand...

Nope. You disagree with the Bible. Not my criticisms.

I am not the one attacking the beliefs of the first Christians.

If you think that the early Christians were so far off the mark, then why do you consider yourself Christian?

mike1reynolds said:

I am not the one attacking the beliefs of the first Christians.

Click to expand...

No that would be me. I can take responsibility for my actions. I do stand up for what is right, and biblical. I am not a live and let live kind of guy. I will continue to come against unbiblical teachings. It is the ones that truly believe, and defend things that are harmful, that I have pity for. They have been mislead.

The first Christians were mislead? By whom? The only possible implication here is Jesus.

Living for Christ said:

And Rev 12 refers to overcomer IMO. Sorry, the quote button wasn't working

Click to expand...

They changed the way the quote thingy works.
Now you have to click the quote button, then go to the bottom of the page and click reply and then the quote shows up.
I think it is a plot.
They are just trying to confuse everyone.

Ty

Or maybe they just don't know how to program... I've never seen so many bugs on a website...