really not praying to Mary???

[WarriorAngel]

If you say Mary is without sin then aren't you lifting her up higher than she belongs, thus inadvertently and unwittingly you would still be worshipping her?

AND you know where she belongs??

For in fact, I dont think you grasp the importance of her role to begin with in being the one who carried God.

So should God be carried in a sinful woman?

Or was He above that Himself?

The best explanation to Mary's role is that she is the New Ark of the New Covenant.

Putting enmity between her and satan...Gen 3:15 means she is a total and polar opposite of evil and sin.

Exact opposites in fact. So if evil [serpent] is sin, then we know the woman is without sin.

 

[Debi1967]

Well I guess I won't be reading it, much of the list is incomplete. Do you have a better source?

What are you expecting God to come down and tell you with His own words?

Dear heaven's above you are expecting that God is going to give you an infallible list?

umm why? Give me a good excuse as to why you have need to know of these men's characters do that you can pass jusdgement on them as if it is your right to do so in the first place? I thought that was the job of God not you? Do not all men err?

The fact is the Church had to make a determination and considering they were the ones with the information that was more complete at the time then it was their determination to make. They chose to take the words of these men to be faithful and true because it was more than one man, it was a man and a whole council. It was one man that came to charge differently, when they looked at the evidence they saw fit to dismiss it because they thought it had not enough merit.

You want proof but when it is then given you come up with strawman argumentation to dismiss the evidence given as proof that rightly should be given proper creedence. That is by your choice but it has nothing to do with whether any of the evidence is genuine or worthy of inspection.

 

[Debi1967]

If you say Mary is without sin then aren't you lifting her up higher than she belongs, thus inadvertently and unwittingly you would still be worshipping her?

Being impeccable has nothing to do with Being Divine as Mary is not Divine. So therefore we have unwittingly done nothing other than state that Mary as a HUMAN, not a GOD was impeccable.

 

[Smileyill]

What are you expecting God to come down and tell you with His own words?

Dear heaven's above you are expecting that God is going to give you an infallible list?

umm why? Give me a good excuse as to why you have need to know of these men's characters do that you can pass jusdgement on them as if it is your right to do so in the first place? I thought that was the job of God not you? Do not all men err?

The fact is the Church had to make a determination and considering they were the ones with the information that was more complete at the time then it was their determination to make. They chose to take the words of these men to be faithful and true because it was more than one man, it was a man and a whole council. It was one man that came to charge differently, when they looked at the evidence they saw fit to dismiss it because they thought it had not enough merit.

You want proof but when it is then given you come up with strawman argumentation to dismiss the evidence given as proof that rightly should be given proper creedence. That is by your choice but it has nothing to do with whether any of the evidence is genuine or worthy of inspection.

Sheesh, cool down there sister. All I meant was that most of those links gave nothing more than a name.... You argue like my ex-gf when I questioned something, she blew her top. You actually presented evidence at least.

In fact, the evidence is worthy of inspection, that's why I intended to read it. But I need more than a name and a date. I wouldn't, but as you point out, men err. But contrary to your contention, we are to judge our leaders. 1 Cor 11:19

 

[Debi1967]

Sheesh, cool down there sister. All I meant was that most of those links gave nothing more than a name.... You argue like my ex-gf when I questioned something, she blew her top. You actually presented evidence at least.

In fact, the evidence is worthy of inspection, that's why I intended to read it. But I need more than a name and a date. I wouldn't, but as you point out, men err. But contrary to your contention, we are to judge our leaders. 1 Cor 11:19

I am sorry I saw that and died of laughter, figuratively of course.

Anyway whom would you like information on and I will try to get you personal information or links for you on the person themselves.

 

[rushingwind62]

Sheesh, cool down there sister. All I meant was that most of those links gave nothing more than a name.... You argue like my ex-gf when I questioned something, she blew her top. You actually presented evidence at least.

In fact, the evidence is worthy of inspection, that's why I intended to read it. But I need more than a name and a date. I wouldn't, but as you point out, men err. But contrary to your contention, we are to judge our leaders. 1 Cor 11:19

RaggedRobin is my wife. She argues with me like that too Smiley... ...and dangit she does use evidence...so it is hard to win an argument.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...lol

 

[Debi1967]

1Co 11:19 For also heresies need to be among you, so that the approved ones may become revealed among you.

Umm this is not talking about judging but rather that we have need of incorrect teaching so that those that are approved of God, may themselves teach us accordingly and we may then know them.

 

[Smileyill]

1Co 11:19 For also heresies need to be among you, so that the approved ones may become revealed among you.

Umm this is not talking about judging but rather that we have need of incorrect teaching so that those that are approved of God, may themselves teach us accordingly and we may then know them.

Exaclty...how's that not judging?

Oh and I had to grin about you 2.

Really what I'd like is a website that has the list you provided, but with more information. I looked at about 5-6 links and they all had scant info.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If you say Mary is without sin then aren't you lifting her up higher than she belongs, thus inadvertently and unwittingly you would still be worshipping her?

How is giving honor where honor is due elevating someone above where they belong and inadvertently and unwittingly worshipping them?

Worship is a deliberate attitude of the heart. Worship means the one being worshipped is a god.

We have no illusions about this.

Mary is not a god.

We honor her with the honor due her.

We know we are not worshipping her.



Peace

 

[Iollain]

It really doesn't matter if you or i think it is worship, it matters what God thinks.

 

[Christpatience]

AND you know where she belongs??

For in fact, I dont think you grasp the importance of her role to begin with in being the one who carried God.

So should God be carried in a sinful woman?

Or was He above that Himself?

The best explanation to Mary's role is that she is the New Ark of the New Covenant.

Putting enmity between her and satan...Gen 3:15 means she is a total and polar opposite of evil and sin.

Exact opposites in fact. So if evil [serpent] is sin, then we know the woman is without sin.

Eve did sin, that is why she was placed in the position of travail; likewise Mary mother of Jesus also sinned being born into the flesh. Should could not help but sin and make mistakes. The eternal will of God though it was to create Eve, even though she sinned, that does not change the fact of His eternal will and He aims to have perfection and find a people for His own out of the Adamic race, even though so we go through this redemptive design.

I don't think Gen. 3.15 is referring to Mary, but the woman as the eternal will of God, whom happens to be the church in this dispensation of grace. The serpent is exact opposite to God's eternal will. The Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, which is the woman whom God has prepared to have in eternity to come. She is none other than Eve in creation, the body of Christ in the dispensation of grace, this woman whom we see at the close of the dispensation of grace (Rev. 12), and the New Jerusalem God will have in the eternity to come.

 

[Christpatience]

AND you know where she belongs??

For in fact, I dont think you grasp the importance of her role to begin with in being the one who carried God.

So should God be carried in a sinful woman?

Or was He above that Himself?

The best explanation to Mary's role is that she is the New Ark of the New Covenant.

Putting enmity between her and satan...Gen 3:15 means she is a total and polar opposite of evil and sin.

Exact opposites in fact. So if evil [serpent] is sin, then we know the woman is without sin.

In the Old Testament record there is only one woman who had an encounter with the serpent, and she is Eve of Genesis 3. Now in the New Testament there is also one woman who had a skirmish with the serpent, and she is this woman of Revelation 12. This shows the unity of the Bible. Here God purposely mentions that the great dragon is the old serpent, thus distinguishing it as the one, same and only old serpent. Likewise, this woman will also be the same woman as in the Garden. Moreover, as there are sun, moon and stars mentioned in Genesis 1, so there are sun, moon and stars spoken of in Rev. 12. As there is the serpent in Genesis 3, so the serpent is present in Rev. 12. As the seed of the woman is mentioned in Genesis 3, so the seed of the woman is also shown Rev. 12. And as travail in birth is predicted in Genesis 3, so travail in birth is presented Rev. 12. By studying these two passages of the Scriptures together we may conclude that this woman is none other than the woman who has been foreordained in the eternal purpose of God and who will experience such things as these at the last days. Hence we may say that the woman mentioned in Genesis 2 reveals the eternal will of God; the woman seen in Ephesians 5 unveils the position and future of the church; the woman spoken of in Revelation 12 discloses that which will happen at the last days; and there is yet a woman who will declare what is going to be in eternity.

I don't think she belongs exalted to the place of sinlessness, since Jesus corrected her mistake: "And Jesus said to her, 'O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come'" (John 2.4).

Why can't God be carried in a sinful woman? He is God. If we find her being fleshly, we must conclude she was born into sin, for she would have not erred so Jesus to have to correct her this way. And God would not create a robot sinless creature. He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34)

And since "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3.6) we must accept the Lord's word plainly, that Mary is flesh since she was born in the flesh. Jesus on the other hand was born in the likeness of flesh which different.

I have to accept the Word as is and I can't add onto it a goddess sinless woman, for only Jesus is God.

 

[Christpatience]

AND you know where she belongs??

For in fact, I dont think you grasp the importance of her role to begin with in being the one who carried God.

So should God be carried in a sinful woman?

Or was He above that Himself?

The best explanation to Mary's role is that she is the New Ark of the New Covenant.

Putting enmity between her and satan...Gen 3:15 means she is a total and polar opposite of evil and sin.

Exact opposites in fact. So if evil [serpent] is sin, then we know the woman is without sin.

The Ark typifying Mary? There was no Ark in the NT, only the OT. So what does the Ark represent?

"Do you not know," writes the Apostle Paul, "that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Cor. 3.16) He has received revelation in likening man to the temple. As God formerly dwelt in the temple, so the Holy Spirit indwells man today. By comparing him to the temple we can see how the tripartite elements of man are distinctly manifested.

We know the temple is divided into three parts. The first is the outer court which is seen by all and visited by all. All external worship is offered here. Going further in is the Holy Place, into which only the priests can enter and where they present oil, incense and bread to God. They are quite near to God—yet not the nearest, for they are still outside the veil and therefore unable to stand before His very presence. God dwells deepest within, in the Holy of Holies, where darkness is overshadowed by brilliant light and into which no man can enter. Though the high priest does enter in once annually, it nonetheless indicates that before the veil is rent there can be no man in the Holy of Holies.

Man is God’s temple also, and he too has three parts. The body is like the outer court, occupying an external position with its life visible to all. Here man ought to obey every commandment of God. Here God’s Son serves as a substitute and dies for mankind. Inside is man’s soul which constitutes the inner life of man and which embraces man’s emotion, volition and mind. Such is the Holy Place of a regenerated person, for his love, will and thought are fully enlightened that he may serve God even as the priest of old did. Innermost, behind the veil, lies the Holy of Holies into which no human light has ever penetrated and no naked eye has ever pierced. It is "the secret place of the Most High," the dwelling place of God. It cannot be reached by man unless God is willing to rend the veil. It is man’s spirit. This spirit lies beyond man’s self-consciousness and above his sensibility. Here man unites and communes with God.

No light is provided for the Holy of Holies because God dwells there. There is light in the Holy Place supplied by the lampstand of seven branches. The outer court stands under the broad daylight. All these serve as images and shadows to a regenerated person. His spirit is like the Holy of Holies indwelt by God, where everything is carried on by faith, beyond the sight, sense or understanding of the believing one. The soul resembles the Holy Place for it is amply enlightened with many rational thoughts and precepts, much knowledge and understanding concerning the things in the ideational and material world. The body is comparable to the outer court, clearly visible to all. The body’s actions may be seen by everyone.

 

[Christpatience]

AND you know where she belongs??

The order which God presents to us is unmistakable: "your spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5.23). It is not "soul and spirit and body," nor is it "body and soul and spirit." The spirit is the pre-eminent part, hence it is mentioned first; the body is the lowest and therefore is last mentioned; the soul stands between, so is mentioned between. Having now seen God’s order, we can appreciate the wisdom of the Bible in likening man to a temple. We can recognize the perfect harmony which exists between the temple and man in respect to both order and value.

Temple service moves according to the revelation in the Holy of Holies. All activities in the Holy Place and in the outer court are regulated by the presence of God in the Holiest Place. This is the most sacred spot, the place upon which the four corners of the temple converge and rest. It may seem to us that nothing is done in the Holiest because it is pitch dark. All activities are in the Holy Place; even those activities of the outer court are controlled by the priests of the Holy Place. Yet all the activities of the Holy Place actually are directed by the revelation in the utter quietness and peace of the Holy of Holies.

It is not difficult to perceive the spiritual application. The soul, the organ of our personality, is composed of mind, volition and emotion. It appears as though the soul is master of all actions, for the body follows its direction. Before the fall of man, however, the soul, in spite of its many activities, was governed by the spirit. And this is the order God still wants: first the spirit, then the soul, and lastly the body.

 

[Christpatience]

AND you know.

Man’s spirit is related to the Holy of Holies. Compare the intuition, communion and conscience of the spirit to the ark in the Holy of Holies. First, within the ark lies the law of God which instructs the Israelites what they should do; God thereby reveals Himself and his will through the law. In like manner God makes Himself and His will known to the believer’s intuition that he may walk accordingly. Second, upon the ark and sprinkled with the blood is the mercy seat whereon God manifests His glory and receives man’s worship. Similarly, every person redeemed by the blood has the spirit quickened; through this quickened spirit he worships and communes with God. As God formerly communed with Israel on the mercy seat, so He today communes with the believer in his blood-cleansed spirit. Third, the ark is called "the Ark of Testimony" because therein are kept the Ten Commandments as God’s testimony to Israel. Just as the two tablets of law silently accused or excused the doings of Israel, so the believer’s conscience, on which God’s Spirit has written the law of God, bears witness for or against the conduct of the believer. "My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 9.1).

Observe with what respect the. Israelites paid the ark! In crossing the Jordan River they had no other guidance save the ark, but they followed it without hesitation. In fighting against Jericho, they did nothing except march behind it. Later, they could not stand before the Philistines when they tried to use the ark according to their way. Was not Uzzah smitten to death as he put out his fleshly hand to hold the ark? How joyful Israel was when they had prepared a habitation for it (Ps. 132). These incidents ought to teach us to be exceptionally careful with our ark, which is our spirit with its threefold functions. If we walk in this fashion, we shall have life and peace; if we allow the flesh to interfere, we can encounter nothing but total defeat. Victory depended not on what or how Israel thought but on where the ark led. Spiritual usefulness lies in the teaching of our intuition, communion and conscience and not in the thought of man.

 

[Iollain]

I guess Iollian then you did not know that prayer to anyone else other than God alone is optional?

I guess you also did not know that Prayer has two meanings as well, one is Worship, the other is simple communication.

I also guess that you did not know that neither any of the Angels, nor the Saints in Heaven would be able to dispense God's Graces if God Himself had not first given them to them to dispense. So essentially, if not for God they would be nothing and have nothing. Who then is the Almighty? God of course.

But the same way God uses us here on earth as His vehicles, and does then through us dispense His Grace unto others, He also uses those in Heaven. Grace has been Given unto to you too as a Free Gift, and that is by the power if God. Why oh why Iollian can you not see that those in Heaven can have the same Graces and more because of them now being perfected?

Did you know your church teaches that Mary has the grace and she will pass it out as she sees fit?



12) Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334.

For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].


http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

 

[Iollain]

I guess Iollian then you did not know that prayer to anyone else other than God alone is optional?

I guess you also did not know that Prayer has two meanings as well, one is Worship, the other is simple communication.

I also guess that you did not know that neither any of the Angels, nor the Saints in Heaven would be able to dispense God's Graces if God Himself had not first given them to them to dispense. So essentially, if not for God they would be nothing and have nothing. Who then is the Almighty? God of course.

But the same way God uses us here on earth as His vehicles, and does then through us dispense His Grace unto others, He also uses those in Heaven. Grace has been Given unto to you too as a Free Gift, and that is by the power if God. Why oh why Iollian can you not see that those in Heaven can have the same Graces and more because of them now being perfected?

The first church dedicated to Mary was dedicated by St. James the Greater in Spain in 40 or 41 A.D.

Historical records show that many churches have stood on the same site since. So if a church was dedicated in her name it follows that veneration was a part of the apostles mindset.

Isn't that the same legend that says Mary appeared before James and gave him a statue? Yeah right as if the Jewish James would accept a statue.

 

[xxkingskidlmxx]

the Holy Spirit takes care of the spirit and anything not of the spirit is ill equiped to look after itself. consider the following

Capture of the Ark Provokes God

1Now the Philistines took the ark of God and (A)brought it from Ebenezer to (B)Ashdod.

2Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it to (C)the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon.

3When the Ashdodites arose early the next morning, behold, (D)Dagon had fallen on his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD So they took Dagon and (E)set him in his place again.

4But when they arose early the next morning, behold, (F)Dagon had fallen on his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD. And the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off on the threshold; only the trunk of Dagon was left to him.

5Therefore neither the priests of Dagon nor all who enter Dagon's house (G)tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod to this day.

6Now (H)the hand of the LORD was heavy on the Ashdodites, and (I)He ravaged them and smote them with (J)tumors, both Ashdod and its territories.

7When the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, "The ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us, for His hand is severe on us and on Dagon our god."

8So they sent and (K)gathered all the lords of the Philistines to them and said, "What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel?" And they said, "Let the ark of the God of Israel be brought around to Gath." And they brought the ark of the God of Israel around.

9After they had brought it around, (L)the hand of the LORD was against the city with very great confusion; and He smote the men of the city, both young and old, so that (M)tumors broke out on them.

10So they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And as the ark of God came to Ekron the Ekronites cried out, saying, "They have brought the ark of the God of Israel around to us, to kill us and our people."

11They (N)sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines and said, "Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it return to its own place, so that it will not kill us and our people " For there was a deadly confusion throughout the city; (O)the hand of God was very heavy there.

12And the men who did not die were smitten with tumors and (P)the cry of the city went up to heaven.

Cross references:

A 1 Samuel 5:1 : 1 Sam 4:1; 7:12
B 1 Samuel 5:1 : Josh 13:3
C 1 Samuel 5:2 : Judg 16:23-30; 1 Chr 10:8-10
D 1 Samuel 5:3 : Is 19:1; 46:1, 2
E 1 Samuel 5:3 : Is 46:7
F 1 Samuel 5:4 : Ezek 6:4, 6; Mic 1:7
G 1 Samuel 5:5 : Zeph 1:9
H 1 Samuel 5:6 : Ex 9:3; 1 Sam 5:7, 11; Ps 32:4; 145:20; 147:6; Acts 13:11
I 1 Samuel 5:6 : 1 Sam 6:5
J 1 Samuel 5:6 : Deut 28:27; Ps 78:66
K 1 Samuel 5:8 : 1 Sam 5:11; 29:6-11
L 1 Samuel 5:9 : Deut 2:15; 1 Sam 5:11; 7:13; 12:15
M 1 Samuel 5:9 : 1 Sam 5:6
N 1 Samuel 5:11 : 1 Sam 5:8
O 1 Samuel 5:11 : 1 Sam 5:6, 9
P 1 Samuel 5:12 : Ex 12:30; Is 15:3

 

[Iollain]

I am wondering if your accounting is right that he was correcting them, then why did he specifically say to them HAVE NOT READ THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY GOD?

Why then did he say that to them? This obviously means that they had LEARNED IT BUT REBUKED THE TEACHING!

Thus the reason why they were being corrected in their error, it was not that they did not know, it was that they chose to rebule the teaching they were taught!

Context of scripture Iollian then come back to me, because most of the scriptures you dismissed you did without really reading them, as they did prove my points. Everyone but you saw it!

Yes i've read it countless times and still Jesus is rebuking the Sadducees.

Mat 22:34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.


Probably because some people do not see when they read.

How about you start using Bible verses here to prove your point instead of relying on ScriptureCatholic, look it up yourself.

 

[Debi1967]

It really doesn't matter if you or i think it is worship, it matters what God thinks.

No actually see it does...because Iollian, Christ is the READER OF HEARTS..... Therefore if HE sees that we are not doing it for the reasons you submit and we have never rendered nor believed the way that you do, then we are judged accordingly....

I WORSHIP NO ONE BUT GOD HIMSELF. THE LORD KNOWS THIS!

It however is not for YOU to judge me in anyway, and hence the reason that if YOU wsh to have a productive conversation with any of US then I would suggest heavily the non use of condemnation when you talk to us!