If you disagree with this minister, why do you endorse his lying shock tactics by re-posting his video here and starting a whole thread about it?
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LDS Really interesting discussion between Christian and Mormon on Salvation
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Repenting daily is not "trifling" with repentance. That's the problem in what Joseph is saying. He's wrong.
That's actually not true. It COULD be true in some cases, but mostly that is not true.
Wrong - it is pleasing to God that we repent daily. We sin daily, even if we are improving. I think perhaps you and other mormons might think that sin is limited to what one does; that is typical of people who are legalistic and believe in working to earn salvation. But sin happens so quickly and happens in our minds much more than in our actions. We are still flesh and have a carnal sin nature. Paul, after being an evangelist and Apostle for 25 or so years, even admits as much about himself:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Repenting daily and renewing communication with God through prayer is not something that should ever be discouraged and Joseph's words do discourage that. He suggests that repeated repentance (daily) is "trifling" when that simply isn't the case.
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Because I can disagree with the method without thinking it's wrong. It's not how I would do it but I don't think it's wrong, per se. I think it is not the best way or even a good way, but not a wrong way. Do you understand how someone can disagree with something and not think it's wrong? If not, I can provide an example.
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You've hit upon a huge truth here. Mormons can only do things to earn favor and blessing and salvation from God.
In Christianity, we are GIVEN salvation and blessings and favor from God, simply because He is merciful. We deserve NONE of it. Therefore, when we Christians do anything to serve God, it is being done purely to serve Him. We aren't doing it to earn anything because we already know that we CANNOT earn anything and that God is merciful despite our being sinful and undeserving. We do it because He is merciful, in gratitude and in service to Him. We will never get anything for it, we only do it out of service and love and gratitude.
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So you don't lying is "wrong, per se"? Am I hearing you correctly!?! What about Ex 20:16?
Do other mainstream Christian here believe it's not "wrong, per se" to lie!?!
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dzheremi
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I don't want to get into pointless arguments over what words mean, but I will say that if there is daily sin (and there is, even if it is not necessarily the same sin every day), then there had better be daily repentance. That's why it's so dangerous to suggest, as JS apparently does, that this is 'trifling' with repentance, as though the presence of daily repentance is a bad thing or somehow proof that a person is not taking God seriously. No, this is part of what repentance is, and it is necessary to deal with the spiritual maladies of our fallen human condition. What else has ever saved anyone?
A Christian leader I greatly admire, the Roman Catholic archbishop Fulton Sheen, once commented that hearing nuns' confessions was like being pelted to death with popcorn. For forms of Christianity which are heavily inclined to monasticism (like mine), we might marvel at the fact that such consecrated people would have anything to confess at all, since there is a great deal of respect rightly paid to monks and nuns, and we count many ancient and modern saints among their ranks. Yet the fact that they go to confession as we all do ought to be instructive to us: Sin affects everybody. There is no one who can simply stop sinning by strength of will or "just following the commandments", as the t-shirt put it. This is a very cold and impersonal way of looking at our relationship with God, and if that's the kind of attitude that Mormonism inspires in people, then frankly maybe the t-shirt is not as wrong as you Mormons believe.
Truly returning to God in prayer is not about the number of times you do it (as though God is going to say "You've confessed this same sin to me 537 times; I'm sorry, but my limit is 536, so goodbye!"), but about the fact that you are doing it. That you recognize that without God, you can't do anything, and that sin is bigger than your ability to handle it. In some traditions, this tends to produce a lot of guilt in people (e.g., the infamous "Catholic guilt"), but a better, healthier way to look at it is that you are drawing strength from God in every prayer, because only He can do what you cannot do. As HH Pope Shenouda III points out in the video below, plenty of people come to God only to leave Him without taking anything from Him, thinking that the focus in prayer and repentance is on them when really it isn't (or it shouldn't be). That's dangerous, because it warps what repentance and prayer really are, and that's what Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion apparently do by encouraging people not to be in constant repentance and saying that this is something that God doesn't like. Oh, I and 2,000 years of unwavering Christian witness beg to differ!
A Christian leader I greatly admire, the Roman Catholic archbishop Fulton Sheen, once commented that hearing nuns' confessions was like being pelted to death with popcorn. For forms of Christianity which are heavily inclined to monasticism (like mine), we might marvel at the fact that such consecrated people would have anything to confess at all, since there is a great deal of respect rightly paid to monks and nuns, and we count many ancient and modern saints among their ranks. Yet the fact that they go to confession as we all do ought to be instructive to us: Sin affects everybody. There is no one who can simply stop sinning by strength of will or "just following the commandments", as the t-shirt put it. This is a very cold and impersonal way of looking at our relationship with God, and if that's the kind of attitude that Mormonism inspires in people, then frankly maybe the t-shirt is not as wrong as you Mormons believe.
Truly returning to God in prayer is not about the number of times you do it (as though God is going to say "You've confessed this same sin to me 537 times; I'm sorry, but my limit is 536, so goodbye!"), but about the fact that you are doing it. That you recognize that without God, you can't do anything, and that sin is bigger than your ability to handle it. In some traditions, this tends to produce a lot of guilt in people (e.g., the infamous "Catholic guilt"), but a better, healthier way to look at it is that you are drawing strength from God in every prayer, because only He can do what you cannot do. As HH Pope Shenouda III points out in the video below, plenty of people come to God only to leave Him without taking anything from Him, thinking that the focus in prayer and repentance is on them when really it isn't (or it shouldn't be). That's dangerous, because it warps what repentance and prayer really are, and that's what Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion apparently do by encouraging people not to be in constant repentance and saying that this is something that God doesn't like. Oh, I and 2,000 years of unwavering Christian witness beg to differ!
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dzheremi
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It's an improper way to make a true point. More akin to Luke 4, wherein Jesus tells the demon to be silent and not confess that He is the Christ. It's obviously not because Jesus is somehow not the Christ that He would command this (since He is), but because Jesus knows that the truth coming from an unclean source is tarnished before people who might otherwise accept it.
(This kind of thinking is why my first post in this thread was about how the preacher could have and should have done things differently. I wouldn't blame any Mormon who would say "Well he didn't even get the quote right, so why should I listen to what he has to say?", but that doesn't mean that what he says is therefore necessarily wrong...he just hurts his message that way, which is why he shouldn't have done it like that.)
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Then denounce the video!
Exactly! Why should I or anyone else listen to a person who proudly lies? No, you dismiss a liar.
This minister and anyone whom re-posts his video has fatally sabotaged their cause before the conversation even starts.
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This Evangelical minister is lying!
And by not denouncing his actions, you are perpetuating lies.
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dzheremi
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I think I'd have to have positively appraised the video in order to be in the position to later denounce it, wouldn't I?
Besides, that's missing the point of my reply.
Well, I certainly can't argue with that, given that this is the entire reason why I dismiss Mormonism...
Granted, something tells me you are not going to apply this logic evenly across the board.
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Dude, either admit that the person in the video was being deceptive, or admit that you think "being deceptive" is OK if it's aimed at a group you yourself don't like.
Take your pick.
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He's distorting the context of what was actually said for shock value.
The original statement was "It's better to overcome that sin than engage in a cycle of doing that sin and repenting for it", but the person in the video twisted it into something about how we teach that people shouldn't repent at all.
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