LDS Really interesting discussion between Christian and Mormon on Salvation

[Myrtle Stics]

That video is in a public place - a street (I see the Yield sign). Is that what you're against, free speech in public places?

Also, why are no mormons trying to talk to that man? If a mormon was doing this where a bunch of people from my church were gathered there would be several of our church members talking to him.

They are harassing Mormons plain and simple

 

[ArmenianJohn]

They are harassing Mormons plain and simple

Even if they are, are there no mormons who can talk to such a person? My church members have been harassed and the response is always to talk with the person. We see it as an opportunity to talk to someone who needs Christ. So you're saying that mormons don't care to help someone with their religion? Is it that mormon religion really can't help everyone?

 

[Myrtle Stics]

Even if they are, are there no mormons who can talk to such a person? My church members have been harassed and the response is always to talk with the person. We see it as an opportunity to talk to someone who needs Christ. So you're saying that mormons don't care to help someone with their religion? Is it that mormon religion really can't help everyone?

They do want to help everyone that's why there are missionaries, to help people

 

[withwonderingawe]

I've had mormon missionaries come to my HOME to protest Christianity against me. Does it bother you that your church is sending out these missionaries to protest Christianity all over the world and in people's homes, on their private property?

now you are sing tricky wording, there is a difference between offering to teach vs. running around with signs and blow horns.

 

[withwonderingawe]

That video is in a public place - a street (I see the Yield sign). Is that what you're against, free speech in public places?

Also, why are no mormons trying to talk to that man? If a mormon was doing this where a bunch of people from my church were gathered there would be several of our church members talking to him.

He didn't look like he wants to talk, he's just yelling

 

[ArmenianJohn]

now you are sing tricky wording, there is a difference between offering to teach vs. running around with signs and blow horns.

The evangelist in the video in the OP of this thread did not have a sign or a bull horn. He is offering and trying to teach the other man. How did you go from the OP of this thread into bull horns and running around with signs? You are equating Christian evangelism with "protesting" yet when your missionaries evangelize their message you call it "offering to teach".

 

[ArmenianJohn]

He didn't look like he wants to talk, he's just yelling

So you have never seen someone who is yelling calm down and talk when someone goes to talk to him? I've seen it many, many times. Heck, I've been the one to talk to such people.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

They do want to help everyone that's why there are missionaries, to help people

That's why we have missionaries and evangelists, to help people. So now where are the mormon missionaries to help these "protestors"??? Why are they never around for that?

 

[Myrtle Stics]

That's why we have missionaries and evangelists, to help people. So now where are the mormon missionaries to help these "protestors"??? Why are they never around for that?

They work to try to help people realize the truth

 

[ArmenianJohn]

They work to try to help people realize the truth

So where are they at Manti and these other festivals where the feared "protestors" are? Why are they not there to talk to the "protestors"???

 

[dzheremi]

The evangelist in the video in the OP of this thread did not have a sign or a bull horn. He is offering and trying to teach the other man. How did you go from the OP of this thread into bull horns and running around with signs? You are equating Christian evangelism with "protesting" yet when your missionaries evangelize their message you call it "offering to teach".

Curious, isn't it?

As usual, they want exceptions for their own religion. I find it strange, since admitting that they are doing the same thing for the same reasons as every other community (e.g., trying to convert people, because they believe their religion to be right and those of others to be wrong) wouldn't even be saying anything bad, yet for some reason certain Mormons in this thread (not all) seem very defensive about their own activities, while very offended by everyone else's.

Yes, it's irritating and unwelcome when some jerk with a bullhorn and a big sign is telling you that you'll go to hell or whatever if you don't leave your faith and join theirs (which I noted was not what the OP was doing, either, but apparently there are groups that do that to the Mormons...just as there are groups who do that to Christians, too). It is also annoying when two 19-year-olds calling themselves 'elders' show up at your home when you're busy living your own life, trying to sell you on their religion which includes a narrative about how your own, which for all they know you believe in quite strongly, is in apostasy and displeasing to God.

Yet somehow, I guess because the door-to-door missionaries of the LDS wear nice pressed shirts and frame their behavior as wanting to talk to you about Jesus, they're just there to "help" people, whereas the other is there to "flame". It's a matter of presentation, not underlying message. It's not like Mormonism isn't offensive just because Mormons are nice about presenting their own offensive message in a way that they hope will make it more palatable to the easily persuaded.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I find it strange, since admitting that they are doing the same thing for the same reasons as every other community (e.g., trying to convert people, because they believe their religion to be right and those of others to be wrong) wouldn't even be saying anything bad, yet for some reason certain Mormons in this thread (not all) seem very defensive about their own activities, while very offended by everyone else's.

Sigh, we've already been over this. You'll notice how not a single LDS person here has critiqued this man for trying to share what he believes is right. What he's been critiqued for is--
1) Not actually sharing what he believes is right, but instead just informing you why he thinks you're wrong.
2) While he's informing you he thinks you're wrong, he doesn't even bother to check what you believe is what he's rambling on about (he's got his facts wrong).
3) Flaming through the use of disrespectful symbolism
4) Lying through the use of doctored quotes.
5) Crashing another faith's religious events to convince people to leave that faith. That's just rude, tactless, and counter-productive.

they're just there to "help" people, whereas the other is there to "flame". It's a matter of presentation, not underlying message.

Actually, it's a matter of the messenger being remotely Christ-like in their conduct.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So where are they at Manti and these other festivals where the feared "protestors" are? Why are they not there to talk to the "protestors"???

People do.

And how well do you think a person who's blasting "Mormon's are going to Hell" is going to listen?

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, it's a matter of the messenger being remotely Christ-like in their conduct.

In other words, presentation (conduct/the way the message is being delivered), not message (what he's actually saying; as though Mormons aren't constantly saying that Christianity is wrong...that's the entire reason your religion exists, since non-LDS churches are victims of the 'great apostasy', remember?). That's just what I said in the post you quoted in your reply.

Again, you want an exception because you're nicer about a message that is just as offensive, and I can understand why (I've certainly had more pleasant conversations with LDS -- including missionaries -- than I have had with any street preacher), but I'm just pointing out that I see that that's what you're doing, and I don't find it acceptable. It seems like you're trying to pretend like you're somehow different than this guy because you dress nicer and bother people at home instead of when they're at a public pageant, but since nice conduct does not cover heresy, and the LDS belief in the great apostasy remains no matter how nice you are about it, it's profoundly unconvincing and strikes me as incredibly self-serving and naive.

Sorry to have to phrase it this way in a thread when I have had some genuinely pleasant conversations with one of your coreligionists (proving not only is it possible to do so, it actually does happen), but since you're making your own subjective view of what is "Christ-like behavior" to be the determiner of how you'll evaluate a person's message (i.e., as 'flaming' when others do it, or what you have called 'theological disagreement' when your fellow LDS are doing it), then an obvious response from a Christian could be that as Jesus Christ Himself told us that it would be better that one who causes the little ones to stumble be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck (Mark 9:42), and Mormonism does cause the little ones (and the adults) to stumble in their search for the true Christ (given that it is not Christianity in the first place, but presents itself that way so as to ensnare the gullible who are searching for Him), it would be better that Mormon missionaries visit the local seaside with millstones in tow than continue to bother people at home with their soul-destroying, anti-Christ blasphemies.

Now that statement is as subjective and offensive as you can get. The point is that I'm admitting that it is, and not pretending as though one person's idea of what 'Christ-like behavior' is ought to determine what other people can say and how they can say it. After all, while I wrote that statement in purposely extreme terms to prove a point (NB: I don't believe that Mormon missionaries should be drowned in the sea! Christ gives us this as a warning, not a command), I would say that the things that Mormonism preaches about Christ are anti-Christ, and in so far as that is purely 'theological disagreement' (which it is; I'm not yelling it at you through a bullhorn right now), by your standard there is nothing 'un-Christlike' about saying it. I would further add that, as I don't believe that Christ would bless those who deliver false doctrines to the people in His name (remember, not all who call upon Him "Lord! Lord!" will be recognized by Him), there can be no truly 'Christ-like' behaviors from those who affirm Mormonism's doctrines that so deprive its believers from the true Christ.

In other words, you may say that the preacher's conduct is 'not Christ-like', and I may even agree depending on what you mean by that (after all, I have been consistent in this thread in saying that he's going about spreading his message in a way that I think is improper), but on an even deeper level -- on a level that matters beyond whether or not we personally agree with the way that something is presented -- Mormonism is much more un-Christlike and un-Christian than the man in the video could ever hope to be. For all we know, Arius was the nicest person around (I doubt it, but really who knows). That didn't stop St. Nicholas of Myra (the original Santa Claus!) from punching him in the face, which Christian tradition has pretty much granted is at least understandable, given the danger that his heresy (which Mormonism subscribes to by treating Christ as a created being, by the way) presented to the true Christian faith. Remember that Christ Himself was not all rainbows and "hey, everyone teach and do whatever you want", either. As a popular meme puts it:

 

[Jane_Doe]

In other words, presentation (conduct/the way the message is being delivered), not message

Having charity in your actions, yes that matters (1 Cor 13:1).
Letting your light shine, yes that matters.
Sharing what you believe is true: yes, that matters.
Not being a lying hypocrite: yes, that matters.
Having faith that is not dead and matchs your actions: yes that matters.

 

[dzheremi]

In other words, these things that we can all agree matter do, in fact, matter.

Okay, then.

 

[Ironhold]

So where are they at Manti and these other festivals where the feared "protestors" are? Why are they not there to talk to the "protestors"???

Look at it this way.

You're out in the middle of the street screaming your lungs out about how "evil" and "stupid" you think anyone who disagrees with you happens to be.

The people you're screaming at clear a path so someone that's built like a Mack truck and hauling a church bag that weighs more than you do can move through.

You realize that this person is coming towards you, and the look on this person's face makes it clear that they think you're not right in the head.

How many ways can that scenario play out? In what ways do they not end well?

 

[tickingclocker]

If I started to tell you that you believe in lies and you leaders know they are lies but keep telling them because they would be out of a job or their pride of having believe in a lie makes it hard to leave how would you feel? If I went to a gathering of yours and had banners and a megaphone yelling repent and come to the right Jesus. Or as you were walking into the event walked along the side of you telling you that if you don't join my church your going to hell how would you feel? Would you think Jesus had called me to do this?

But that's just the thing! Mormons ARE listening! That's just the thing you cannot accept, too.

 

[withwonderingawe]

So where are they at Manti and these other festivals where the feared "protestors" are? Why are they not there to talk to the "protestors"???

We generally avoid contention, the Spirit can not teach when one side of the discussion is being contentious. Yelling at us qualifies as contentious, so yes we walk away.